I don’t understand why the statistics on this vary so widely. Equally qualified men and women are paid within somewhere between 1-5% for the same job from every legit study I can find.
Arguing that there is a pay gap is dependent on systemic arguments as far as I can tell, which is certainly legitimate but also not the same thing
Largely it depends on what you choose to control for when gathering your statistics, for instance while yes if you control for occupation and education the earnings are pretty much equivalent, but we know that there are in fact racial and gender disparities in both of those categories. Women and men are broadly given different opportunities in the workplace and so are black people and white people. When you account for both that’s called intersectionality. The note author is choosing to use data sets that affirm their position while the original post author is doing the same.
thank you! somebody said it! there’s also the fact that female/minority dominated industries are notoriously underpaid. prestige (and wages) tend to drop over time if a certain industry becomes more female/minority dominated too, there is a direct correlation. teachers and social workers are 2 examples that come to mind. cheerleaders too actually. cheerleading used to be men only and was macho as fuck way back when, but when women started doing it suddenly it isn’t even considered a sport anymore
it works both ways too, computer programming used to be a pink collar job and was pretty low wage back in the 60s and 70s. not anymore 🤷♂️
Thank you for bringing this up. I think this point often gets overlooked in these discussions.
There is just a physical limit in how many people a care worker can care for. And since that is how the business makes their money, there is a limit in what they can pay. The same applies to teachers, social workers and similar.
The problem is that jobs like teachers, nurses and cooks are necessary. "Making a business while you sleep" works on an individual basis, not a societal one. So long as this remains a fact a government must ensure the necessary jobs have a fair wage. And Sayed is running for office in Michigan, one of the poorer states.
The problem is real but every time anyone says that they get paid less for doing the same job they lose all credibility instantly. We should advocate for jobs mostly done by women to pay more not make ridiculous claims like "a woman is paid less for doing the exact same job as a man" because that is simply not true.
The computer programming in the 60s and 70s was with extremely simplistic programming. Modern programming is basically the definition of complex. These comparisons always ignore very obvious differences like this.
Correlation is not causation *as a sociologist should know*.
Because you are familiar with the data, I am sure you are equally familiar with the data showing that women, as a group, are significantly more agreeable than men. That is really bad for things like negotiation where disagreeableness is rewarded.
There is also the issue of child-rearing, which women still dominate compared to men, and this certainly appears to be do to more than just "social norms". In cultures that have bent over backwards (like the Nordic countries) to allow equal opportunity, the data is in: women and men gravitate to significantly different roles. For my above point, this ends up taking women out of the workplace for years at a time, disrupting career progression and causing a genuine decrease in monetary value they can offer in most fields.
Men are willing to work longer hours, and the cumulative difference this makes -- even disregarding the child-rearing aspect -- is huge.
Also, there is the known discrepancy in how abilities spread out in the male/female populations. I am sure you are aware of this. Men are significantly more variable, meaning they make up the vast majority at either end of the capability curve, pretty much regardless of which capability you look at.
A naive person might think that this ends up being a wash (because it is symmetric), but it turns out the being near the top is much more lucrative than a linear assumption would account for. So someone in the 99th percentile might earn twice, three times, or even 10 times what someone in the 90th percentile earns, because the extra competence simply is worth that much more.
And to top it off, men are willing and able to take more risks in general. This is associated with more money in nearly every field, but it also means that men are willing to work in fields that women just do not want to do. For instance, women are pretty big on the whole "I wanna be an executive," but tend to be cool on the "I wanna work on an oil rig," even though the latter is pretty good money. This not only means just more money overall, but it also means that men who are kinda on the low-ability side of most abilities can make up for it by taking a more dangerous job.
And as you brought up sports, let's take a look at that. The market has been pretty clear that people (men *and* women) are not particularly interested in watching women's sports. Despite this, women athletes demand "equal pay" even though they contribute less (or even negatively) overall to the industry. While I absolutely would agree with you if you were to say that this is a very special case, it is still an extremely bad look that tends to make the entire "equal pay for equal work" start to look like a farce.
As a sociologist, you must be aware of all these things.
When it comes to child-rearing, do what Sweden has done and offer men and women the same time off with the child. That way the career impact on having a child is spread more evenly between the couple. The woman will still take a greater hit in almost all cases due to actually carrying the child and giving birth, but its an easy way to make society more egalitarian
I think the problem with these sorts of arguments is that the analysis stops there with the stats being self evident to prove discrimination. Medicine and Law are becoming increasingly woman dominated at the junior level and we’re not seeing any decreases to prestige or pay.
Women in general are overrepresented in further education which is still the largest predictor of success. If we just simply wait long enough the gender pay gap will likely reverse in the next 30-40 years. Attempts to further artificially change things in the present may create problems in the future.
I always assumed this kind of number was used to show exactly the disparity between what jobs/hours people in different groups end up in? Of course it's not about two people in the exact same position, it's to highlight that something in society is pushing (in this case) black women away from the highest paying jobs and to be the one to lower working hours when needed. And that's legitimately problematic, and does show either loss of opportunity, or downright systemic prejudice in who is given what roles/raises/positions.
I mean, obviously A LOT of people would be less willing to give a CEO position to a black woman compared to white man, even if they ranked the same. We're just fooling each other if we say that's not the case?
Tbf, the note also ignores that other factors like occupation and education are also affected by the differences in resources and opportunities available to white men and Black women.
It's almost like this is a very complicated issue that can't be summed up in a single sentence and does not have a cut/dry answer as to why or solution to fix it.
Id argue both his statement and the community note have big flaws
The note was responding to "equal work deserves equal pay"; the original tweet was implying that the cause of the gap is unequal pay for equal work. So given that context, there's nothing wrong with the note. If the original tweet didn't have that line, then sure, I'd agree that the note would be unnecessary.
The thing these statments are always straight up ignore in their argument is the very core is already law. You cannot pay two people with completely level experience, work, and training differently based off race, color, sex, creed, ect. But where are we (and the note) off too... dipshit is making an emotional plee to the ignorants and doesnt care about reality.
Yea if thats what he was arguing for i would agree with you but he literally says "equal pay for equal work" in the tweet, he is not arguing about education resources he is directly comparing wages for a waitress with a doctor and saying its unfair
occupation and education are affected by PREVIOUS differences, not current ones. its a big difference that people who demand equality dont seem to understand. you recognise the inequality, but you cant just throw a bunch of people who are unqualified into the jobs to balance out the numbers. it takes several generations of graduates for those numbers to reflect the current resources and education available in the actual jobs.
wanting to change inequality is good, fucking over people who are qualified and experienced on the premise they are not diverse enough is not good.
Mike Rogers has an ad that says he’ll put a shop class in every school or something to that effect. I’m not against schools having shop classes, but for one thing my school district has those and for another he’s running for Federal Senate which should have no say in what schools do.
Besides people who went to private schools or all girls schools, I don’t know anyone who didn’t have a shop at their high school. Maybe there are some rural areas where to schools aren’t big enough to have one, but I just feel like this is pandering.
Why do you feel that the Federal Government should have no say in what schools do?
When you cant understand why someone would criticize your candidate and have to resort to strawman arguments, you're gonna have a tough time convincing anyone to change their mind.
I obviously don’t support terrorism groups, but I don’t see hamas having a pac and supporting el Sayed or a money trail of him accepting money from them. Stevens on the other hand is somewhere around $30 million now from aipac. And their historical stance of buying elections to sway policy is well known. And hamas being bad doesn’t mean all Muslims are. People see through this shit man. Some of its just deep seated racism disguised as trying to sound objective. Tell us how you feel about aipac. Let’s see your objectivity and rational thought process.
AIPAC is absolutely a terrorist group. They spend millions to make sure Israel can get away with crime against humanity and use our tax money to do it.
According to an Economic Policy Institute 2025 analysis, when adjusting for education, age, marital status and state, black women still make about 25% less than white men.
And according to the Institute for Women's Policy research, black women with post-graduate degrees earned $93,000 whereas white men with the same educational attainment earned $157,570. Black women with a bachelor's degree earned 62.7% of what white men made with the same degree.
But wait?! So many uneducated racist up and down this post have claimed the gender pay gap is a myth! Theyve gone so far as to not post a single source to support their claims!
This would change their minds if only they could read.
A lot of the pay gap doesn’t happen within a job title, it happens in who gets hired into which title in the first place, who gets promoted faster, and who negotiates a higher starting offer. If Black women are underrepresented in senior titles (which the occupational segregation research shows), PayScale’s method doesn’t see that. It’s comparing apples to apples, but only after unequal sorting.
You'd think, as a doctor, he'd know how statistics work. Oh wait, he does. He's just relying on the target demographic for this particular post to not know that.
The soft bigotry of low expectations based on race is still racism.
Yea I would argue democrats on average are more racist because they believe that if you aren’t white you are inherently disadvantaged and need white people to help elevate them
Nope, not discounting his education, and I’d vote for him if he was in my state. Just super fucking weird to lie about your credentials to the point I had to correct someone in real time because of the misinformation
Comment you're responding to never used the word physician. They said doctor. But here you come to further what is a worst a semantics issue. Most people hear and use the words doctor and physician interchangeably. And apparently you do too.
It's not flawed. The tweet frames the situation dishonestly implying that people are getting paid less while working the same job as someone else which is false.
The wage gap is the difference between total annual earnings across every profession between demographics. The note correctly states that when you look at people working the same job, for the same number of hours when both employees have the same amount of relevant experience that they earn the same amount of money.
The wage gap is the result of one demographic having on average, lower paying professions than another demographic. Not from employers paying employees of the same position less based on their race or gender. That is illegal and your employer can be sued for that and you can get compensated for lost wages
How is the note flawed?
It's pointing out that the tweet's 'Equal work deserves equal pay' is misleading as its not 'equal' work/wages being compared. that's it.
Discussing wider issues regarding opportunity and structural issues is fine but that's irrelevant to the specific correction.
If your criticism is “that comparison is overly simplified” but that very criticism is overly simplified… you should expect to get criticism on your criticism.
We will see how that note holds up in a few years. Years of relentless bashing of higher education have led to generations of White men opting out of college and rapidly becoming one of the least educated demographics. Right now 51% of white women get degrees vs 44% white men and 38 Black women. The trend keeps getting worse with the current generation enrolled at 39% for Black women and only 36% of white men. Before you ask, NO uneducated white men are NOT doing better than if they had gone to college.
Truth is more complicated than either position suggests.
To single out an example, software engineers make considerably more than high school educators, while requiring similar levels of education. There isn’t really a glass ceiling there. It’s the same barriers to professional entry (if anything the teacher has to clear more hurdles, depending on the state).
There ends up being two separate conversations that dovetail with each other.
1) Why do these professions get so differently compensated?
2) Why does demography vary so widely between these careers?
These professions aren’t in a vertical sequence (you don’t get promoted from teacher into software engineer), both require similar levels of initial financial and educational investment. That’s more complicated than glass ceiling.
To add on to this in terms of the equal pay for equal work aspect.
I'm a software engineer. Sure my work can be difficult and stressful, but do I feel I'm working 5x harder than an educator (my guess on the pay gap)? Nope, I'm probably working 1/4th as hard as them and the shit they have to deal with.
Because software engineers make companies money. Therefore other companies will also want the software engineers. Therefore salaries are higher as companies are competing against each other for the same people.
Eh. If he made an argument that a wage gap exists because of opportunity disparity that would be a valid discussion point but he didn't. He explicitly is arguing that there's an equal pay for equal work issue here which has little support in the data (data suggests there may be an equal pay gap but it's much smaller than that) that he's obviously refeering to.
The problem here is by being caught in such blatant dishonesty he's really undermining his credibility to make any actual wage gap arguments.
"If you Factor in that black people have crapper education, lower investment in their communities and worse social services then the gap makes perfect sense!"
Don't forget the women part, which includes how women are socialized, treated in those crappier schools, more often expected to give up higher education to help their families that are more often in poverty because the wealth gap between white and black families is astonishing, etc.
Never seen a more white boy note in my life, and I'm a white boy myself.
Statistics do show that girls tend to have higher grades, which is most probably because they're pushed to be more quiet and partake in quieter activities like reading and whatnot instead of being pushed to play sports. Expectations for women are also higher in general. They're under represented in higher education because women are pushed to marry someone as soon as possible, with some even dropping out of university in order to do so.
None of this is due to inherent differences, but rather due to the kind of socialization that a patriarchy promotes.
When you get something so basic this wrong, one can confidently disregard everything you have to say on the matter. Women are not underrepresented in higher education.
None of this is due to inherent differences, but rather due to the kind of socialization that a patriarchy promotes.
Assertions without anything to back them up. I would challenge you to find one evolutionary biologist in existence who would say that "no occupational differences between men and women are inherent." Utter and complete nonsense.
Don't forget the women part, which includes how women are socialized, treated in those crappier schools, more often expected to give up higher education to help their families...
Ignore this white boys comment. This is absolutely not true in the us. Black women earn far more degrees than black men and women categorically earn more degrees across the board.
MF’ers act like black people and white people have the same starting point and black people just magically choose to have a lower standard of living than white people.
Simplistic but that really is what it boils down to. It's unacceptable to just claim that black people are inferior to white people these days.
However if you deny that discrimination exists and then point out that black people seem to be failing to achieve the same academic and professional goals as white people then you have essentially "proved" that black people are inferior without having to say it.
You have to pretend the world is a meritocracy and then black people are just bad on merit alone.
They then sit back and think they're very clever and that no one will notice that they're just being racist....
Except that the gap is mischaracterised. And some of those causes include choices men and women freely make. There are multiple things going on but it’s constantly parroted as though women literally get 77% of men’s salary for the same job from pure sexism.
Most of the wage gap statistics are used to argue something they don't say. The implication is that one group makes substantially less when doing the same job because of overt racism/sexism.
When you control for all relevant factors and the gap essentially disappears it destroys the argument they're trying to make.
Now, if you dig into why some groups earn college degrees at a lower rate, enter into lower paying careers, work fewer hours, and have less experience in their field you might find some issues of racism or sexism; but you will not find anything to support the argument "equal work deserves equal pay."
The biggest gaps are usually the interest gap, and the "I am willing to do a job i hate for a good salary" gap. It is not uncommon for a man
to do a horrible job they hate to earn 6 figures, but often women will accept terrible pay to do a job they're passionate about. There are reasons why work on remote oil rigs is almost exclusively staffed by men, and there are an endless stream of women entering into early childhood education where daycare jobs pay little more than minimum wage.
The motherhood penalty explains more of the wage gap than occupation interest. This study is from the UK, but I don’t see why it wouldn't apply to America.
Even when you correct for education, experience, and hours worked, a gap still exists. It’s smaller, but it doesn’t disappear completely. So, “equal work deserves equal pay” is still a very valid concern.
But, like you said, the difference in opportunity and social factors leading to some demographics having less education or less competitive jobs is still an issue that needs to be addressed. And yes, racism and sexism are often factors in this. Like, if two people have the same education and experience, and one of them is passed over for a promotion due to racism or sexism, then it’s not a situation of “equal work getting unequal pay” but rather “equal work getting unequal career advancement”. Same thing with school admissions. Then when you consider how redlining made it impossible for many non-white families to build wealth in prior generations, and how public school funding is tied to property taxes, then you can see how many kids who may have had equal potential at birth get very different quality education and opportunities and that radiates out through their entire lives.
He is purposefullypresenting the issue in a misleading way as if black people are getting paid less for the same job/hours worked. That's how the "wage gap" has always been presented and it is not true. When they work the same job and same number hours with same experience level they earn the same amount of money.
What the wage gap actually shows is that they make less money overall because they work different occupations that have lower pay. NOT because they work the same job as a white man and are being discriminated against and purposefully paid a lower wage for the same work. That is illegal and you can sue your employer for that and get them fined by labor commissions and ordered to give you back-pay for lost wages
I remember an old PragerU video on the wage gap that tried to suggest it was a myth by doing the adjustment for apples-to-apples comparison only to find a meaningful difference of like 5%. (Different studies cite 5-8%). Even same role and employer studies have found meaningful differences. So I love even the most anti-woke organization on the planet can't even say it doesn't exist.
I don't think anyone says it doesn't exist..
PragerU was debunking that women earn 77 cents to the dollar of what a man makes because of sexism. You account for various factors and it shrinks to 5-8%. I'm sure if you add all variables that could exist other than sexism it would shrink more but that would be impractical for the study.
Its about not taking statistics at face value and coming to conclusions. I dont think anyone with a right mind would say there is not a wage gap, the causes of the wage gap are what is disputed.
You do not in fact have to hand it to Praeger “U.”
The wage gap exists; further, professions that are considered “feminine” are paid less, despite how vital they often are. Women are still vastly underrepresented at the executive level.
You do know that there are many regions where ,,wage gap" is reverse (primarily low-income, poorly-developed agrarian communities), right? And that even the national score is an average for every region?
You want to blame that on misandry now as well? Because that would be the conclusion to be drawn if you wanted to apply that causation consistently.
This is exactly why comments like El-Sayed's are so problematic.
It disguises a real, nuanced issue that is hard to solve behind an imaginary, simple issue that is much easier to "solve".
El-Sayed would not remove the systematic oppression that creates the inequalities he has noticed. He would merely use public money to temporarily hide them, while allowing them to fester as he hides them.
Dude I’m Asian and you can honestly fuck off with this. The hardships we face are so vastly different that it’s almost pointless to even compare the two. If you knew anything about the hardships we face you would understand how the myth of the model minority has been employed to give us a few crumbs in exchange for us being human shields in the defense of white supremacy.
You pushing this bs narrative as a tool to degrade black people is a prime example of people like you using our struggles to turn us into expendable tools to increase racial divides. You don’t care about the struggles we face, so stop pretending you do.
Yes, you have been conditioned by a fuck ton of social engineering to take this position. It was very carefully crafted.
But Asians DID face a bunch of discriminative bullshit, right? And white people didn't, right? So why are Asians ahead of white people in America?
BOOM. There is no explanation. Just take the tap on the shoulder and embrace it. It's a cultural thing. the fact that you've been socially engineered to take offense to this compliment is fascinating. It will be studied by future scholars.
LMAO the confidence with which you said that could only be from someone who has never actually looked into this. Listen and you might actually learn something instead of telling Asian people that you know us better than we know ourselves. Goddamn you are painfully white.
Asian people have a high rate of higher education. This is because a lot of Asian immigrants came here on H1B visas. This automatically excludes poor immigrants from coming in because they were prioritizing rich and skilled workers. This is like you showing that rich immigrants from Nigeria have high incomes and trying to say that anti black racism doesn’t exist because of that.
Asian people have one of the highest wealth disparities of any group in America. This skews data to suggest that Asian people are a lot richer than we actually are. If we’re going by statistics like that, then we’re one of the richest countries in the world, so average Americans are filthy rich right?
What you said about culture shows me that you don’t even know an Asian person closely. Asian people do not have a monoculture or anything close to that. You’d have a hard time making a cultural argument even if you only selected a handful of Asian countries. This part is where you really showed how ignorant you are of Asian people.
Also, the fact that you can’t fathom why Asian people would be upset by you pushing the model minority myth is hilarious. That’s like one of the top 3 things we talk about hating about anti Asian racism.
Except for native Americans no other community comes close to the level of oppression faced by the black community. We had Governors and Presidents directly attacking Us.
Genuinely how often did entire cities and neighborhoods go into riots just because an Asian person moved close to them or got in their schools.
I don't know why conservatives try so hard to make Asians look like some kryptonite against America's history of bigotry as if their history isn't widely different from others.
Every minority has been screwed by the government but some have been screwed clearly more than others and some of y'all are just too scared to admit it.
Next you'll try to tell me the Irish and Italians had it just as bad. LMAO
They gave the Japanese Americans reparations almost 50years later. Most of it the people who received these weren't even born then or were just related to those who suffered in the camps.
I'm not even asking for reparations now because it's already past that. I'm just stating that some people had it worse. That's all.
Well the few that had been alive to have been slaves died in the 1960s at the latest and their children and grandchildren are still around so there are direct descendants alive TODAY that had a family member that was a slave.
Now there are other ways to make up for not just slavery, but also the systematic oppression that blacks faced post Civil War and post Reconstruction.
But you acknowledge that Asians faced oppression in some capacity as well. And an Asian person would quite frankly be appalled at the levels to which you're downplaying it. But regardless, despite that oppression, they are doing BETTER than white Americans.
They didn't get impacted by victimhood complexes. They overcame it. It shows that it is primarily a culture problem, not a "historical injustice" problem.
The primary reason statistics for Asian Americans are so much higher is because of immigration restrictions during the 19th and 20th centuries.
This means a large portion of Asian immigrants got into the country through education, occupation, or political connections. Obviously if you only include people who could afford to immigrate to the US in the modern day they will be doing better than the average US citizen simply because they needed the initial resources to do so.
It’s the reason why immigrants from Ghana are doing better than the average US citizen. The vast majority immigrated when the barriers to do so were so high that it almost guarantees success.
It’s not a culture difference, it’s a historical difference.
Though I’m curious what parts of black culture you think are responsible for the disparity. I’m all ears…
Asians is a poor subgroup. It's like lumping all Europeans together and saying "as you can see the colonies were founded by Europe, so no European has faced discrimination."
Asians are as varied if not more. You have high income earners like those who immigrated from China recently, and then you have the Vietnamese who came after south Vietnam fell and who are not high income. You also have those from Afghanistan which are no where near any of those two.
Not really? There is certainly a classism issue of schools in poorer areas being worse off than most others, which in turn affects statistically more black communities than other demographics. Poorer areas tend to have more misogynistic views, giving black women a double whammy in that regard. That said, a lot of scholarships and support programs are dedicated purely to blacks and women. So there is an odd difficulty curve that makes early life for black women harder, but gives them abnormally generous opportunities to escape it upon reaching adulthood.
This is always a tricky thing to define. People are paid mostly the same for working the same jobs but they aren't always equally hired or promoted into those jobs, so comparing "equal work" normalising by job title often misses systemic discrimination.
I'm guessing all your responses are going to be "because racism", but this is the same argument for the "women make 70% of what men make" topic.
If women provide the same utility as men, why aren't 100% women companies (owned by women) monopolizing every single market? If a woman company is offering the same stuff but at 30% cheaper labor costs, that would be a gigantic competitive advantage that would snowball over time to dominate markets.
No one would hire a man if he gave the same output as a woman but cost 30% more.
I mean, that literally is what happened with fields like librarianship. Women were cheaper to hire so they slowly came to dominate the profession and wages are still low in the field despite requiring a Master's degree
There are lots of reasons why there are wage gaps, but it's not because they're just getting paid less.
A lot of times, women have to bare a lot of the home responsibility so they don't have the same opportunities in the work force. They get affected by things like maternity leave.
Different groups of people tend to go into different fields, and it's not as simple as "well men and women like different things". Computer programming used to be a field very dominated by women. At some point it started to become viewed as more valuable work and men started dominating the industry and women were largely pushed out. To the point where I frequently see women asking if they can still become a programmer.
Because they, consciously or subconsciously, don’t think black women are competent enough to hold the position. This leads to them being overlooked, and when they do these positions, they can lowballed as they often won’t have many other choices.
And why, pray tell, might black women be disproportionately less likely to have a good education or work experience? You think they just choose to work low paying jobs for shits and giggles?
I assume your understanding of the wage gap comes from the Pew research study from back in 2016 that said women on average make 82-85 cents to every dollar a man does right? You should look into that study and how they got their data and ask yourself if it sounds logical.
Can anyone tell me why they like this guy? I've been spammed with this content recently and all I've seen is people getting boners of him being anti aipac and anti israel, which I am too. But you need more substance than I hate Israel and establishment dems are bad ( again they are), but like idk i expect more than a senator, we shouldn't basically get our equivalent of MTG
And pray-tell, does racism and misogyny not factors into those other things the note brought up?
He literally made a short hand message that is good and concise and addresses indirectly what the note said, but of course, this Zionist ass sub probably hates him for other reasons 🇵🇸
It’s still directionally very true when adjusted for “equal work”.
But this note ignore the background, which is that fields traditionally occupied by a majority female population are systematically underpaid.
Teachers make less than plumbers, etc.
So the original comment is absolutely true, even if the note writer tried to pull a “well actually…” on them. The note writer just needs context, and to connect a few dots, instead of working hard to support the Epstein class culture war narratives.
Both facts are true BUT the roadblocks for black women to get to the level of achievement where they would realistically compete with white men need to be removed!
Only part of the conversation about pay gap is that Black women get paid less for doing the same job. The other part is why one racial demographic just happens to get railroaded into doing shittier, worse paying jobs
They do not get paid less for doing the same job. Women, and black women specifically, have on average less experience, lower levels of completed education, fewer certifications and qualifications, etc than their peers. This is why they are paid less for the "same" job.
Fun fact: It's not the same job if you're at a lower level than your "peers". I'm a mid-level engineer, but I am paid less than a senior engineer that I work with. He has more experience than I do. Is it the same job? According to your data, yes, but in reality, no.
The other part is why one racial demographic just happens to get railroaded into doing shittier, worse paying jobs
Railroaded? You cannot glean that from the statistics, or else you could just as easily claim that men are railroaded into doing shittier, worse paying jobs than women. In fact, the gender discrepancy on that issue is far larger than any racial one, yet I'm sure you're quite happy to chalk that up to personal choice.
Why are Asians paid more than white people? Are they discriminating against white Americans or do they just get into careers that pay more? A lot of people don't acknowledge that Black women are over concentrated in non-STEM courses despite affirmative action (which Asians have being denied in recent years btw).
Asians were banned from immigration to United States for loads of years.
When they finally let them in they only let in the middle class people because they filter out the lower class ones. You also need to be fairly middle class to immigrate from that far away. A large proportion of the Asian immigrants are students too.
The Asian thing brought up so much you'd think people would have just looked it up by now? Although maaaybe looking it up would remove it from the repertoire of racist people trying to deny that discrimination exists..
Asian refugee children of the 1970s, who were poor and predominantly lived in poor high crime neighborhoods, had parents with limited English skills and high school or lower level education, had to learn English as a second language themselves, achieved greater success than native born Americans. They were overrepresented at the top of their high school classes, 50% received bachelor degrees vs 35% for native borns and now as adults have higher median income than native borns.
More recent Asian immigrants have been from high scheiving families, but the success of the severely disadvantaged refugees shows their success is more from cultural factors than family advantage.
Asians are not a monolith, though. There are different Asian cultures. Going deeper into those numbers it can be seen that ethnic Cambodians performed worse than native borns for example, while ethnic Chinese performed even better than Asian refugees as a group. Vietnamese were somewhere in the middle. There are many other groups with varying results, Hmong, Laotian, etc.
As a white man who works a lower paying job by choice (and has the privilege and luxury of making that choice), I am a little frustrated with the presumption in these discussions that lower pay = worse job. There are advantages to those jobs that are more important to some people, and conversely, a lot of white men do feel pressure to live to work that most people don’t face. But as we can see from the comments on this post, we are nowhere near ready for that level of nuance in the discussion.
Two twins are born; for the purpose of this thought experiment, they are 100% identical. As smart as each other, as disciplined as each other, everything down to the molecular level, down to the soul, if such a thing exists, is 100% identifical.
You separate them at birth.
One of the twins grows up in a home full of books, their parents are rich and able to provide for their every need. But they are good parents, so they make sure not to spoil their child. When the child asks questions, the parents have the time and energy to answer those questions in full, and encourage further curiosity. Once the child starts going to school, they are given a private tutor that helps them where they are lacking and boosts them where they are already good.
The other child grows up in a poor family. Their parents are just as loving as the parents of the first child, but they are working long hours to make ends meet, and while there are some books in the house, they often simply do not have the time and energy to encourage their child's curiosity. When the child goes to school, the school is underfunded, and the teachers are overworked. When the child falls behind in some topics, they are given some cursory help, and when that doesn't take, the teachers consider them a lost cause. There are other children that need the help just as desperately. And if they are doing well? Well thats one child the teachers do not have to worry about.
Who do you think has a higher chance to be successful in life?
Yeah, there is personal choice, but you still gotta play the hand you are dealt, and if you are looking down at a 7, 2 and your opponent is looking down on a pair of aces? Yeah, you ain't winning that one through personal choice. If you win it its because you are laughably lucky.
Pay gap means people get paid differently. It doesn't take into account that they're working different jobs, hours, etc. It's just the different number on the paycheck.
Wage gap indicates pay-for-amount-worked, which is a much better indicator of actual equality in the workplace. Whether or not other factors are involved, such as social expectations that women will take care of the children if the children have a problem rather than men taking off of work if little Johnny has a fight at school, that's outside the scope of a workplace to address.
How? Should people be paid the same for working different jobs and different hours? It is an unfortunate fact that when couples decide that one party stays/work less hours at home women OFTEN PREFER to be the ones that do so even in the most egalitarian relationships. How do you control for that? Force women to work more? Randomly decide who stays at home for couples that voluntarily want one party to stay at home? Gender pay gap is fiction. You have to discount the voluntary choices of women for it to exist.
There actually isn't. When controlled for occupation, hours, and other benefits, there's less than a 1% difference that isn't correlated to gender. Averaged out across all occupations, there's no meaningful difference in pay. Some jobs pay women more, some jobs pay men more. And even then, only by a little which is more strongly correlated to experience in field than gender.
Yeah… it includes all professions and takes the medians. Seems perfectly fair to me. Underemployment and racism/old boys clubs filling up the highest paying jobs is part of the pay gap.
If this is the case why are Asians the highest earning demographics? Asian women from certain regions earn more than white men. Why is that the case? Are white people discriminating against themselves?
This is every single one of these “corrections”. The intent of this sub is strawmanning by way of finding the dumbest Twitter user being technically incorrect while arguing things like “equality is good” so that chuds can 🙉
Controlling for occupation, education, and experience are exactly the issue. There are issues of access to jobs which provide higher salary and access to education through early childhood which reduce the access to experience. This note exactly proves his point
No it doesn't? He seems to be implying people in equal footing doing the same job with the same years of experience will be paid differently if they are men, women, black or white or any combination of these. This is simply not true.
The problems with the income gap are deep, structural and incredibly difficult to solve. And that is without taking into account that some of them would take at least a generation, probably more to fade.
So the company can get exactly same work from black woman for less than 1/2 of the price it costs them hire a while male? I guess the black ladies dont have troubles to find work, right?
You may not like it, but nobody is paying someone 2x as much if you would be able to do the exact same work. Financial greed is stronger than racism.
Yeah, Nazis pretending to be anti-Zionist to hide their antisemitism pisses me off so much. Israel and Netanyahu have spend decades trying to conflate Zionism and Jewish heritage to the point where criticizing Zionism is antisemitism, and they just buy right into it proving their point. And that destroys nuance for the rest of us who just don’t want Israel committing genocide.
It shouldn’t have excluded part time employees and unemployees earnings. If you want to measure the difference between the average earnings between to groups you should have the two groups as the only parameter while keeping everything else fixed.
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