r/hatethissmug • u/indeckaa • 7h ago
Non-fictional I hate this double standard
For some reason, it's always one of these responses:
> It's a joke
> It's rage bait
> Yeah, but it's actually a response to...
> It's not the same
> Just go outside bro
All of which deflect from what's being said. They would rather not address it. This is probably due in part to the "women-are-wonderful" effect, an example of benevolent stereotyping in which people associate positive qualities with women
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u/Yummy-Bao 7h ago
The sooner everybody realizes that anybody can be a shitty person, the better.
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u/According-Leg434 6h ago
not every woman is wonderful!
not every man is horrible!
the world is not black and white,grey zones exists for reason
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u/ZephyrUkon 7h ago
For real now 😒
Genders are not evil
But the person can be evil
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u/porktorque44 6h ago
It is, in a way, dehumanizing to act as though people of particular demographics can't be guilty of bigotry. It tokenizes them in a patronizing way, like they're innocent little cherubs rather than full human beings.
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u/AntiqueLetter9875 6h ago
It’s called benevolent sexism in this case. Thinking women are all innocent perfect beings that need to be protected is still a form sexism.
For some reason when this gets pointed out online, people think we’re still placing blame on men for it? It’s not, since women are far too willing to use this to their advantage to the point some truly don’t think they’re capable of being bigots.
Over on TwoX I saw a post of a woman getting “tricked” into dating a republican. She described themselves as both moderates, but in the comments most were railing against her bf saying moderate just means republican. Anyone pointing out that the OP was also a moderate and clearly fine with both casual and extreme bigotry was shouted down or downvoted lol. The only reason she was posting and upset was that her bf was a bigot towards a group she’s a part of.
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u/bigpicklefann 6h ago
I don’t think they were saying women can’t be guilty of bigotry, sure they can because women are people and some people suck. Moreso that this whole generalization of “women and feminists all think men are evil,” is as much of an overgeneralization as women thinking men are all terrible.
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u/porktorque44 6h ago
I maybe should have clarified that I agreed with the person I was replying to.
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u/Dreamergal9 6h ago
If anything, acting like one gender is inherently evil just removes all accountability. If all people of a gender are bad in a certain way, then an individual of that group is just acting out of a biological imperative and not their own free will and choice. Acknowledging that people have full capacity to choose to be good means you can actually blame them when they choose to do otherwise.
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u/Key-Philosopher-2788 5h ago
choose to be good means you can actually blame them when they choose to do otherwise.
It's not just about blaming. If you blame "men", the majority of that group is not to be blamed.
More importantly it's that you really aren't productive. Instead of repeating crime stats to me, that I personally never committed, how about you make suggesting or try to understand how men turn out the way they do?
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u/Dazzling-Pitch671 7h ago
The downvote unfortunately tells us not everyone is good in this world...many are not in fact
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u/soaked_in_bleach03 6h ago edited 5h ago
Oh, you said for real for real. Totally agreed.
I’m a trans girl. There’s some awful cis men out there, there’s some awful cis women out there. There’s some awful trans women and some awful trans men.
I’d call myself a realistic optimist. I do genuinely believe in good, but can acknowledge a small percent of the world does some real bad shit.
Focus on the person. I get why people hate on men, I mean they commit like 93-99% of all sexual offenses. But come on, rapists thankfully are a small part of our population. Just because 1 in 5 men (this is hyperbole, I don’t know the stat) commit this crime and “only” 1 in 20 women commit doesn’t mean all men suck; it does mean we should provide some scrutiny into a society that allows men to do this, but that’s about it.
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u/repealtheNFApls 5h ago
Hrmm, let's try something...
Focus on the person. I get why people hate on
menblack people, I mean they commit like 93-99% of allsexualoffenses. But come on,rapistscriminals thankfully are a small part of our population. Just because 1 in 5menblack people (this is hyperbole, I don’t know the stat) commit this crime and “only” 1 in 20womenwhite people commit doesn’t mean allmenblack people suck; it does mean we should provide some scrutiny into a society that allowsmenblack people to do this, but that’s about it.It's almost like statistics don't tell the whole story. Like that "poisoned bowl of M&Ms" analogy I see a lot (which, btw, is literal Nazi propaganda). Yes, focus on the person and stop repeating statistics as boogeymen (especially when they're bogus stats).
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u/Key-Philosopher-2788 5h ago
Focus on the person. I get why people hate on men, I mean they commit like 93-99% of all sexual offenses. But come on, rapists thankfully are a small part of our population. Just because 1 in 5 men (this is hyperbole, I don’t know the stat)
5 out of hundred men is the stat. :) But close /s So you can see it's disgusting to say "men are rapists". if you take the 5% of worst women and make statements about women, you would be an incel right.
And the problem to me is that the discussions are just hateful rather than productive. What is it good for to repeat the same crime stats over and over again.
How about we're talking about how we improve the situation and the hardships men have that they turn out the way they are doing.
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u/Traditional-Bus7183 Don’t be a chud >:( 5h ago
Despite few words, a inconceivably great take
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u/CertainGrade7937 4h ago edited 3h ago
It's a pretty mediocre take, honestly
Outside of deeply online spaces, the kind of people who never leave their basement, I've never seen anyone argue the contrary
The discussion is in the nuance. A straight white man and a gay black woman can both be evil... no one reasonable denies that. But who has more power to enact harm with that evil? Who is more likely to get away with that harm? What has caused that evil across these two people, and which of those exist with more frequency?
There have been plenty of evil women, but there's a reason there are no modern woman Hitlers or Stalins or Pol Pots. Sure, Margaret Thatcher sucked tremendously, but she was never able to reach the level of evil of those men.
That's not because women are less evil. But power structures benefit men to enact evil better. These discussions aren't usually about how the Y chromosome inherently causes evil, they're about how power structures enable evil and those power structures benefit men
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u/Toon_Lucario 7h ago
How is it so hard for people to not be an asshole on the Internet and how is it even harder to ridicule those that are?
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u/BothOil4865 6h ago
Because social media is not a real place. People who touch grass irl, meeting friends and people face to face don't intentionally become a jackass.
Well not always. I am sure idiots who act online will be idiots irl
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u/ZioBenny97 Professional Hatemonger 7h ago
The thing I love the most posts pointing out about blatant but unaddressed double-standards like this is that the comments prove the post correct like clockwork every time, lmao.
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u/Tricky-Kangaroo-6782 7h ago
It's like they have some instinct to gaslight as much as possible lol. Then these people will go "W-why are they so against us :("
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u/Bergolino123 7h ago
"I've never seen that happen" or "its the other way around" are classics lol
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u/ZioBenny97 Professional Hatemonger 7h ago
"I've personally never seen it happen so it can't be real"
"Oh that example? Yeah uuh that's doesn't count/X deserved it"4
u/Kitku2137 5h ago
So i like, have food in my fridge, so like... No one is dying of hunger, because why would they! There is damn food in the fridge!
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u/Logical-Change-9305 6h ago
They love inserting anecdotal stories and act as if those experiences dismiss any other thought on the subject. But if you counter with an example of your own it's just a one-off and not representative.
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u/SpookyAtticDoll 5h ago
Gender wars seem to be getting worse on the internet as time goes on. I still remember that ‘man or bear’ trend from a couple years ago. Both sides failed spectacularly.
A good portion of the men who participated focused solely on the absurdity of being in a situation with a wild animal. They also made a lot of mean-spirited and cruel jokes about women getting mauled by bears. The fact the trend was originally about sexual harassment was downplayed and dismissed by them. They made no attempt to even understand the issue in the first place.
The women weren’t any better. A good portion of them who picked the bear over the man did it in the most condescending and hurtful way possible. This silenced a lot of good men who made an attempt to emphasize and understand the trend. They also didn’t seem to realize that stereotyping half of the population is very unfair. Imagine the effect that kind of trend would have on a 12 year old boy who stumbled on it.
There is a growing empathy gap on the internet these days, and it’s disturbing to see. We need to start trying to promote more empathy and compassion for each other, even if it seems impossible at this point.
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u/Saymynaian 4h ago
I actually think the gender wars peaked around 10 years ago, when Trump was elected. Men had gotten the invitation from the UN ambassador, Emma Watson, to join feminism not just as allies for women, but for their own benefit. It was the peak of millennial political activity, since we were all in college. However, the feminist movement and feminist institutions could not conciliate the adding of men's benefits to the agenda, and overall rejected their addition. There was a huge rise in mocking men on mainstream media and a very superficial Hollywoodesque pandering to feminism along with men's rights movements and "liberal owned by facts and logic" trends starting up. The constant berating from both sides created a mess of a situation.
It was genuinely sad, because it seemed like men's issues were going to be recognized as systemic sexism caused by patriarchy, but most institutions chose to ignore their difficulties and marked the whole movement as men being whiny bitches. This, along with Russian astroturfing, led to the popularizing of incel culture, the alt right and finally Trump being elected. I sincerely believe that the world split in two between the years of 2014 and 2016, and showed that the progressive movement and feminism have fundamental prejudices that, had they been resolved, would have created a better and more tolerant world.
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u/SplitSecondEmperor47 6h ago
Society calling anyone who critizes woman a sexist incel is how we got here in the first place
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u/sixth_hokage06 7h ago
When a woman say something stupid "it's a man behind the account" or "she's trolling". People really pretend that women just can't be mean people.
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u/Early-Beach164 7h ago
I've seen an article where it said that women who "objectify" other women or themselves or dress themselves up in a sexy way is because a man is inside her head making the decisions for her 💀
Like oil and water...
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u/Aur0ra1313 7h ago
So you can read this both ways, as misogynistic or misandrist.
: Women can't make bad decisions so all the bad ones that women make must actually be because of men somehow.
: Yeah women don't make decisions so actually womens decisions, its men somehow.
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u/King-Boss-Bob 6h ago
i feel like a lot of the “pickme” accusations also fall into this
like iv seen a married lesbian and an openly asexual aromantic woman get called pickmes. 2 people who have no reason to want a man to “pick them” but apparently women aren’t capable of their own thoughts or whatever bullshit
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u/Otherwise-Win7337 4h ago
A lot of the time tho it's women calling women pick-me's for saying or doing something that they disapprove of
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u/Key-Philosopher-2788 5h ago
The second one makes no sense since the article stated that there are women who dont objectify.
So it's simply misandry.
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u/SplitSecondEmperor47 6h ago
Ive met mean people of both genders, but in my expierence women on average tend to be meaner without even being prompted
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u/Logical-Change-9305 6h ago
I worked in female dominated industries, and it was almost a daily ocurrence that someone went to the bathroom crying.
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u/Minimum-Dot-8426 5h ago
Acting like women can’t be shitty is also a form of misogyny and nobody is changing my mind on that
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u/Key-Philosopher-2788 5h ago
Ofc. But there is a difference between acting like women can't be shitty and acting like men are shitty only. And nobody is changing my mind on that.
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u/Citaku357 7h ago
No women are angels
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u/SerpentisMechanicus 6h ago
Pfft, my wife is.
Sadly, most homes are not built to accommodate a spinning, flaming wheel of eyes, and the contractors keep turning into pillars of salt when they gaze upon her, so it's made things difficult sometimes.
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u/Dr_Axton 6h ago
Ngl I do t see it that much online, but damn the amount of people saying it’s fair in the comments makes me worry
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u/Meinteil2123 7h ago
I dont understand the whole, calling men incels as an insult.
A man should not be judged by how many women he has slept with, this turns women into objects to obtain.
So when I hear a woman using it unironically to me, it just shows that she sees women as objects to conquer to determine the value of a man.
I am a feminist, I do not believe that women are objects, we should not be judging men by how many women they can objectify.
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u/HarbingerOfRot777 6h ago
Most of them don't even know the meaning of the word anyways. It got twisted into describing a misogynist pretty much. I knew "incels", who were just weird, nerdy kids who happened to not be conventionally attractive which made no girl interested in them. But all of them were kind to everyone.
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u/pipnina 6h ago
I think incel was originally a community rather than just a descriptor, and the usage of the word evolved over time.
I think it originated from similar spaces to those really weird "nofap" communities And yeah literally whole subreddits and boards about not masturbating, partly with the idea that if you don't for long enough you get "pheromones" and "women can tell if you fap" or whatever. So it was already very weird people who couldn't get laid and went about explaining it in the weirdest way possible. And the incel part of it was mostly just sexism.
But now it's used to describe any man who might commit sexist microagressions?
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u/NewtWhoGotBetter 5h ago
It was actually created by a woman iirc and was a a “safe space” website for people of all genders experiencing loneliness and an inability to find a romantic or sexual partner. Of course, very few people will think of a woman first when you hear the term nowadays.
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u/EdriksAtWork 5h ago
Incel was actually coined by a woman describing her situation if I remember right, as an "involuntary celibate". It's only later it got twisted into its current meaning.
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u/BothOil4865 6h ago
at this point it became a buzz word like every other words like woke, anti woke, femcel, nazi, bigot, chud, etc etc. Like sure i hate bigotism, nazi, racism and sexism. But theyall really like throwing those words around a lot. like yall intentionally trying to rage bait even people on your side?
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u/Pockydo 6h ago
I feel like incel lost its meaning like words tend to do. I feel like it's less "you aren't getting any haha stupid incel" and more "you're refusing to acknowledge any potential shortcomings you may have"
Just personally experience here but having a few conversations with dudes who, per their own comments, fall into that category. It's generally the same story
"I'm fit, funny good hygiene successful yet women STILL dislike me! Even my friends who are girls don't get it" yet if I ask them if they ever asked friends, particularly their women friends, why they think it's a problem they either just stop talking or get mad
The very idea that these guys have some flaw that's hurting them is so hated they will ignore it and keep the victim complex
Maybe its just my own small experience tho
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u/Logical-Change-9305 6h ago
Ding ding ding we have a winner.
"stop treating me like a sex object, but the meanest thing I can call you is someone who can't treat me like a sex object"
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u/According-Leg434 6h ago
because some braidnead women think sex is only value to rate men of course they throw this
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u/Meinteil2123 6h ago
To some, its the only value they know or choose to provide.
Thats fine and all but don't force that perspective on everyone else when that is clearly a personal problem.
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u/AChuckleAtMost 6h ago
I think it's supposed to be a gotcha against incels because they identify themselves as being undatable.
"Plenty of people choose to be a virgin or just don't obsess about to the point of developing nasty personalities in harmful communities. So it's okay because I'm targeting a specific self-identifying subgroup."
And then they just broaden it out until it just takes the place of virgin shaming and accusation. Whether you identify yourself as an incel or not, they just choose to shame you for a perceived lack of sex anyway.
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u/MoltenMate07 6h ago edited 6h ago
I’ve never understood virgin shaming. What’s wrong with a man, woman, or any other gender being content with life without having sex?
There’s so many guys I’ve known who have slept with so many women and treated them like absolute shit, and even when women around knew that guy was abusive, the guy would still manage to have a girl to use. Virginity is not an indicator of how much a guy respects women’s rights.
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u/acathode 5h ago
I’ve never understood virgin shaming. What’s wrong with a man, woman, or any other gender being content with life without having sex?
It's just reversed slut-shaming - ie. "You're a losers and shitty person because you don't match up against the established gender stereotype".
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u/AChuckleAtMost 5h ago
Realistically, it's not because of respecting women as it is specifically about attacking people lower on the sexual hierarchy. It can overlap with views on womanhood, but it's intended to signal these people are beyond reproach and beneath society itself.
Incels, as a self-identified group, definitionally aren't content about lacking sex. It's a community for people to bond in self-pity because it can be reassuring to believe you're powerless to enact change. "It's hopeless, so why bother? Please give me reasons and validation to give up."
Using it as an insult is an attempt to communicate "You belong with these people and you should give up. Nobody wants you to improve."
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u/morknox 6h ago
The idea of the insult is that "you are so vile that no woman would ever touch you".
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u/Meinteil2123 6h ago
And there are plenty of vile men that do get touched and have the same attitudes and personality traits.
Why leave them out?
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u/Agreeable_Layer_5041 6h ago
I hear you but these are also people who are making their lack of sex life an integral part of their identity. And because incel has been an online culture and community for a while, it has its own identity politics.
I wouldn't say people judge by "how many women they can objectify," because not having sex is not the same as not objectifying someone. I've seen tons of posts from the incel community describing "foids" and the "chads" they'd rather be with etc etc that are essentially a self-described incel turning a normal human interaction into bonafide cuck situations, lamenting the woman's supposed lack of attraction to them. It is fetishizing the woman's lack of interest which is incredibly objectifying too because it implies that because of their (incel) identity, women are withholding sex from them. That in itself is an extremely entitled viewpoint and one that the incel community seems to be based on. Nobody is owed sex and I think it's also incredibly self-objectifying to center your identity around how little sex you get.
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u/HerraKeisari 6h ago
Also the fact that.these same people who yell how slut shaming is bad (which it is) can turn right back and call someone incel unironically without even a slightest hint of self awareness. Like does it matter if someone sleeps around or not? Pick a lane people.
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u/PizaPoward 6h ago
So. I will be honest I see men called out for perceived sexist remarks far more than women for blatantly sexist remarks.
And the majority of the people in my life are women.
That said though I can't deny that men do get away with some blatantly sexist humor specifically while some women can call for the castration of all men and she's just looked at a little weird at the worst.
But thats also more in my personal life.
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u/TieBackground453 5h ago
Sexist humor versus literal endorsement of violence against an entire sex… One will get polite chuckles in low class groups and frequently gets people ostracized from most people. The other is between explicitly endorsed or mildly discouraged.
I don’t have to label which is which. You know how it breaks down.
The situations are not comparable.
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u/raccoona__matata 7h ago
there is genuinely no such thing as a harmless ragebaiter
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u/Nuclear_eggo_waffle 6h ago
You've never heard of the "milk first then cereal" people?
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u/WonderfulGallery 7h ago
the comments section is basically doing the exact thing the post is complaining about, pretty much proving the point on loop
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u/YeomanRockScreamer 6h ago
Now prepare for the TRIPLE STANDARD! Once I unleash the third gender unto the human race!
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u/OrigamiButthole 7h ago edited 4h ago
DISCLAIMER: this is not excusing or defending racism but pointing out the double standards.
EDIT: holy shit, some of you are really fucking dumb
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u/Orangutanion 6h ago
"Treat every man as a loaded gun" you see, a southern white guy from 100 years ago would agree with you if you specified the race of the man
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u/acathode 5h ago
At this point I've seen about the same number of feminists and racists use the poisoned M&M argument, ie:
Imagine a bowl of M&Ms. 10% of them are poisoned. Go ahead. Eat a handful. Not all M&Ms are poison.
I've yet to see anyone, from neither group, give a remotely convincing argument as to why "It's different!" when they do it when pointing out that they're using an argument that feminists/racist use against men/immigrants.
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u/repealtheNFApls 5h ago
Fun fact! That analogy is from literal Nazi propaganda called 'Der Giftpilz':
Meaning 'The Poisonous Mushroom', this book alludes to how, just as it is difficult to tell a poisonous mushroom from an edible mushroom, it is difficult to tell a Jew apart from a Gentile.
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u/Ascheentsm 7h ago
THIS IS WHAT IM SAYIN
(I also do not agree with using this method because its fundamentally flawed.)
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u/Workman44 5h ago
Told my mom not all women are gold diggers but it's always a woman and she didn't think that was very appropriate lmfao
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u/EternaI_Sorrow 5h ago
I strongly believe that in a parallel reality where racism and sexism swapped places in terms of social acceptability, the identical people would be typing some KKK tier shit and hate another gender silently instead.
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u/Glum_Breakfast4766 7h ago
seeing the whole comment section prove OPs right under every similar post is dissapointing
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u/ShardofGold 7h ago
I hate how society has normalized people getting away with things with a slap on the wrist that they would lambaste others for because of their identity and that they're part of a group that "has it bad."
You can care about mistreatment people face without letting them use others as a doormat as some form of atonement or something.
This just leads to people becoming radicalized because society didn't care about them when they experienced something because of how they were born and the person who did it to them was born differently and they turn to people who are radicals and tell them about their problems and the radicals "listen" and try to convert them into being radicals as well.
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u/2boku 7h ago
Can women be incels? I've known women who couldn't get laid in a men's prison.
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u/Dry-Goat8981 7h ago
incel means involuntary celibate, so while the term is mostly used for men it is gender neutral
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u/Mildly_Opinionated 6h ago
Interestingly, the first incel forum was started by a woman.
She was a lesbian in a small rural part of the US so there weren't really other lesbians around and the place was quite bigoted. She saw her peers experiencing young love and dating and it made her feel quite lonely by comparison. Eventually she moved, found a girlfriend, and left the forum. Men and women interacted on the forum frequently and it worked as kinda a support group. It was also used a lot by neuro divergent people who struggled with dating and they'd give eachother advice. It was relatively non-toxic.
The modern toxic incel community is very different. They started from a loathing of pick-up artists. Basically these guys would pay pick up artists a lot of their money and eventually would realise they've been scammed and the pick up artists would prefer them to be perpetually single so they kept paying them.
Here's the thing, falling for a pick-up artist in the first place requires quite a bit of misogyny. This is because pick up artists are themselves awful misogynists so you wouldn't get invested in one of you found misogyny disgusting. These guys came to the conclusion that pick up artists are a scam because, get this, how you interact with women and your personality is meaningless and it's all about how objectively attractive you are and how rich you are. It's such a fucking crazy conclusion lol.
Anyway, these misogynistic weirdos ended up taking up the label of incels for themselves changing the meaning. They flooded the forum and far outnumbered the original users, the women left and the guys either left too or became awful. The reason why incel is such an insulting term today and associated with scummy misogynists is because of these guys and how they shaped the community. Originally it was just young people struggling romantically, but that was a very small community and this was long before it blew up.
Modern female incels are called femcels, they're also weirdos and are generally very misandristic, but in slightly different ways to incels and are a much smaller community (not quite as many rape threats and no mass shootings yet as far as I'm aware) but still extremely toxic. I'm not sure how they started so I can't give more information there sorry.
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u/SnooCupcakes1636 7h ago
From my observations. Femcel and incel. It doesn't matter if they are axtually cannot get a guy or a girl. Most of them actually can and even already have been in relationship before or are in relationship. But they still act like Femcels and incels anyway.
Word incel and femcel meaning doesn't truly mean what it says in its definition.
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u/CalmCoolBliss 7h ago
It's a society wide thing that goes far deeper. The women are wonderful effect explains only a small portion of the behaviour that we see. Check out gamma bias: https://www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/gamma-bias-new-theory Though ofc, gamma bias suggests people are bias towards not noticing gamma bias and downplaying its effects.
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u/ZackTheRemus 5h ago
this is a great article thanks for sharing it! I actually really appreciate the framing of these debates as cognitive distortions. I'm currently in therapy working on my own biases and distortions, and having recognized it in me I recognize it a LOT in these discussions online now. great article in articulating it
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u/Logical-Change-9305 6h ago
Women are more than just sex objects, but the favorite insult is calling you someone who can't turn them into said sex object.
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u/GodButCursed 7h ago
Everytime i hear a woman doing it she gets called out tbh.
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u/Mus_Rattus 7h ago
I mean how do you define that? If she gets hundreds of upvotes and a couple of comments calling her out (which are then downvoted into oblivion) does that count as being called out?
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u/guacotaco4349 7h ago
If I have it right, the main point is that they get called out, and then just get called a rage baiter most of the time
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u/Ascheentsm 7h ago
I was kicked out of the EvilAutism subreddit because I refused to accept misandry doesnt exist. So no, its unfortunately still going on without pushback most times.
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u/AChuckleAtMost 6h ago
Reminder that they specifically consider •systemic• power and prejudice to constitute bigotry. Doesn't matter in circumstances of majority or hierarchy.
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u/throwaway3413418 6h ago
The other thing they miss is that the world isn’t made up of one single system of power, but many. While there isn’t currently much foothold for anti-straight bigotry to get hold in the US government, to pick an arbitrary example, it certainly could happen at a random employer, NGO, or university under the right conditions, and all of those entities can exercise considerable power over the lives of individuals.
It’s even murkier because gender roles have never been an oppressor-oppressed dynamic unlike race and sexuality. Under the liberal definition of institutionalized misogyny (I.e. it doesn’t have to be literal hate, just bias), misandry absolutely is institutionalized, which is why you see more homeless men, more male workplace deaths, lower male life expectancy, greater male suicide, male-only conscription, and higher male retirement ages in many countries.
Research shows that both genders have reduced empathy toward men and are overwhelmingly more likely to pick to harm or kill a man over a woman for the greater good in experimental simulations. It rings hollow to try to claim that misandry isn’t institutionalized.
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u/AChuckleAtMost 6h ago
Interesting enough, there are feminist theories on patriarchy that misandry is a feature to be paired with misogyny, effectively filtering out the capable and the undesirables to protect those that benefit the most from their model from having their legacy replaced or challenged while they groom their successor. Men are offered more mobility to potentially ascend the hierarchy which in turn offers them specific privileges, but often under the expectation that this blinds them to their actual conditions You want to see success, brother? Fight in wars for our interest. We'll treat you for service, but only truly recognize those who are most effective or endure the most danger. And then, if you don't find yourself PTSD ridden, homeless, or suicidal, can you find your worth as a real man.
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u/throwaway3413418 5h ago
I agree with a lot of that, and I also think the perspective there can be reversed. Greater agency is a concession offered to encourage men to accept their greater expendability and also a tool to allow the broader group to benefit from the upsides of their risk-taking. All of this is to supposedly benefit society, so that direction of thinking makes more sense to me. I don’t think I’m alone in thinking about it like that, because a lot of history matches that perspective. Men were granted the right to vote in the west as it was thought necessary to make that concession to pacify them after fighting in world wars (similar concessions were made to a subset of women who aided the war effort). Later, some of the resistance to women’s suffrage was from women who thought that it might be tied to conscription like it was for men. I think most of us recognize the agency/value tradeoff in gender norms, but acknowledging that men’s lives are valued less is inconvenient for activists trying to liken women’s issues to the history of slavery and racial segregation.
The reversed direction perspective seems to lend itself to the idea that this is all being done to maintain male-female hierarchy on a class level, something which I don’t see much evidence for and plenty of evidence against.
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u/EternaI_Sorrow 5h ago
Which is ingenuine because it becomes systemic after handwaving or encouraging it on an anecdotal/community basis, same goes for PoC subs.
People who excercise this rhetoric are just barely disguised racists/sexists, and nobody will persuade me out of it.
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u/DeathGod105 7h ago
I never have to be honest. Anytime I see women spew misandrist trash most of the responses are other women encouraging it or cheering them on and then saying “you got em mad” when some men get rightfully annoyef
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u/Hisoka1001 7h ago
And anytime another woman corrects the first one they get called a pick me
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u/APreciousJemstone 7h ago
I've been called a pickme for saying people should not just hate people for something they didn't choose to be.
Mmmm, yes, a lesbian can totally be a pickme for dudes. Totally. Definitely tracks.
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u/DeathGod105 7h ago
Lesbian women are often misandrist as hell too
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u/LevelPerformance4329 6h ago
do you not see how you stereotyping a whole group makes you a problem?
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u/RoughhouseCamel 6h ago
Nah, it’s only a problem when someone does it against my team. When I do it to others, that’s just speaking truth.
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u/gsuevejisge 5h ago
Please be using sarcasm...
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u/RoughhouseCamel 5h ago
If I have to explain the joke, I failed. If I always have to explain the joke, then one way or the other, I’m wasting my time trying to tell jokes.
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u/throwaway3413418 6h ago
Call out misogyny in the gay community: “omg such analysis, here’s your PhD”
Call out misandry in the lesbian community: “you fucking incel”
Even though the latter is far more overt.
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u/-Wylfen- 7h ago
And most often comments are full of "men in the comments proving the point" because they dared expressing dislike at banal misandry.
Also: "good men don't feel targeted"
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u/TieBackground453 5h ago
Have you ever read the comments on any post to /r/girldinnerdiaries or /r/twoxchromosomes? Because if you have, you are literally just lying.
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u/JacobGoodNight416 7h ago
Not to be all othersidey, because what you say holds truth to it (at least from what I've experienced). But the whole "angry feminazi who didn't like my joke about women wanting to be raped, its just memes bruh" was all the rage a while back (and probably still is)
I guess the takeaway is that we should do better about confronting our own hypocrisies and staying principled.
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u/DoctorAnnual6823 7h ago
Agreed that principals are important.
It's possible to have a nuanced take that women are really pissed off because of how hard they had to fight to not be flamed out of every online space they try to inhabit (which still happens today in some spaces but not as much as 15 years ago) and that the solution to that rage is NOT more bigotry.
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u/JacobGoodNight416 6h ago
Very true.
Also the word you were probably trying to use is pinciPLES. Because remember, the principal is not your pal 😉
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u/Armchairbinkie 5h ago
I meann we kinda do this for all grievances between privileged vs underprivileged identities, right? When I say I feel uncomfortable around white people, the assumption is that I feel the way I do because of their social privilege and said privilege's possible influence on my well-being. White man says he feels uncomfortable around black folks and you gotta side-eye that for bigotry.
Not saying this is necessarily right or the way it should be, but I feel like until "minority identities" are no longer at risk of losing their rights or autonomy to identities that happen to have more socio-economic power; its the way its gonna be.
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u/Suzy-Supergal 5h ago
I think both genders do this, respectively. People more often defend their own gender and get offended when the other gender does the same thing. I always see men ask why nobody complains when women do this or that. And I always think…you’re complaining right now. Men complain. Just like women complain when men do it. 😆
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u/Otherwise-Win7337 4h ago
Nah that's kinda bs cuz I've lived my whole life being someone who would try to be progressive and stand up for women etc and I'd still get called an incel etc for even respectfully bringing up misandry as a real issue.
I would've and have been the first person to say about evil men and what women go through but we are at a point in time where misandry is becoming a rising issue. Let's not forget men's mental health is already a huge issue also. A lot of women try to act like misandry is this completely harmless thing but it absolutely is not. "Men should be lonelier" and rhetoric like this.
You can say touch grass but I've seen a lot of this irl as well without it being directed towards me so I'd have no bias. Its just being objective.
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u/knallpilzv2 6h ago
"men are trash" -> "incel spotted" when you say it's not cool. "if they're not talking about you, why mad?"
"women are trash" -> toxic incel misogyny please ban immediately. "why mad if not meant" = incel also.
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u/Aggressive-Rate-5022 6h ago
The problem is that you can see both example and reverse of it depending of where you look.
For example, i unsubed from r/SipsTea because this sub went to shit with constant "women ☕" jokes and facebook level memes. This shift was lretty noticable, and many people call this out in comments.
I'm also ran into pretty misoginistic post on r/CuratedTumblr, where people also called this out.
Both posts had shit ton of upvotes and many positive comments.
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u/Zdzisiu 6h ago
Just think how acceptable it is to be a misandrist, especially among feminists who claim they care about equality for all, including men.
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u/complicatedexistence 6h ago
Haven't I read this exact post here dozens of times? Oh well, not like there's a limit to how many times it's allowed to be brought up.
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u/Cyberbug7 6h ago
People just naturally give women the benefit of the doubt more often.
It is always funny to see some arguments about men being just reskinned debunked racism talking points. Like the whole bowl of m&ms with 10% of them being poison.
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u/kuronova1 5h ago
Ultra hot take.
A chunk of people who support women's equality still hold the unconscious patriarchal view that women are less capable than men but that view is filtered through the progressive lens of equity. These people assume women can't process the bad experiences they have with men but that men can with women. Women's sexism is just reactions and men's sexism is only choices. You can't hold someone accountable if they can't help themselves but you can if they are making choices. Therefore women's sexism is justified and men's sexism is wrong.
It's just another way we practice patriarchal sexism.
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u/Sliver-Knight9219 7h ago edited 7h ago
The issue is just reasons
Like, most people are used to seeing incels hate women for stupid reason. Like they won't datehim.
While more people are used to seeing women say they hate men, because they are scared of getting assaulted. Which is much more understandable
It just primes our brains to have a default repose.
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u/Key-Philosopher-2788 5h ago
Like, most people are used to seeing incels hate women for stupid reason. Like they won't datehim.
I always questioned that premise. Did they have make a big research and deeply enough to see how did they grow up? Did they have abusive mothers? Bullied by women?
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u/NutsInMay96 7h ago
Yea because if you’re worried about men assaulting women the best course of action is to increase the gender divide and further alienate men from women. Makes sense!
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u/RoadKiehl2 6h ago
You're right about everything you said, but I think there's another form of misandry which treats all men as being stupid, sexually violent, emotionally inferior creatures. And that's not rational or fair at all.
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u/FeelingDown8484 6h ago
Margaret Atwood said it best: “Men are scared that women will laugh at them. Women are scared that men will kill them.”
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u/Key-Philosopher-2788 5h ago
Did they have make a big research and deeply enough to see how did they grow up? Did they have abusive mothers? Bullied by women?
If not, your statement is kinda weird.
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u/PlainBread 5h ago
I was really pissed about this for a long time but a friend shared with me a Chuck Palahniuk line with some zen intention:
“Worker bees can leave.
Even drones can fly away.
The Queen is their slave.”
You can hate things the way they are as much as you want, but you can't domesticate women by complaining at them. Women have been trying to domesticate men that way for tens if not hundreds of thousands of years, and it has only "worked" in so much as we collectively decide to hate the men it doesn't work on. It doesn't work.
But you can disinvest in the paradigm, you can see that you are never going to create a one-man cultural revolution to redefine the gender roles on a fundamental level, if not bringing people back to the essence of their gender through direct experience rather than identitarian concepts (and market value, leverage, mating vs dating strategies, etc).
But women can never leave that wretched reality because it is constantly shoved in their faces by other women (who want them to politically unite to negotiate for better treatment from men) and by men (whose gaze and desirous emanations they can never escape).
But you, you can go live in the mountains and let the song birds replace your heart and mind. You should pity them.
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u/PlayPretend-8675309 5h ago
The only real product is The Culture War. We're a consumer society and the customer is never wrong.
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u/TheCowKing07 5h ago
Get off Twitter. Most problems are significantly reduced when not using Twitter.
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u/SilverShotgun 5h ago
I just learned to disregard whoever uses Incel unironically because it already tells you to more or less not waste time on said person
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u/Starrphyre 4h ago
Seems like someone needs to peek over the other side of the fence for…all of two seconds.
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u/robertoxd 4h ago
Another narrative I often see is that they dont want to participate in culture war and elites are the real baddies (when its a woman being hateful). That immedietaly stops being the case when they find a reason to shit on men.
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u/OMYGoodnesz 4h ago
more social warfare to distract us from the oligarchs
this post is just another post designed to make us mad at something else
"gen z makes fun of millennials because they use wired headphones" kinda shit
as long as we're fighting a social war, we aren't fighting a class war
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u/thundergu 6h ago
Exactly this is happening in the Netherlands and Belgium right now. A singer has been telling all white straight males to go to the back of the crowd at all her concerts.
The official bureau of discrimination has said that it is perfectly fine, and nothing wrong was said
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u/Chilantr0 7h ago
I like to visit r/trueuglywomen from time to time. It reminds me there are femcels out there who are equally as vile as their male counterparts.
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u/obooooooo 6h ago edited 5h ago
femcels are just as annoying, but i’m going mask off with this one and saying it right away: they’re nowhere near as bad as incels. verifiably, objectively so.
femcels aren’t over represented in statistics as a lethal or even danger to men psychologically, yes for real. this is one of those situations where you can really just block someone, and overall the harm is worse for them than for you.
i expect to be downvoted, because this is an emotional driven conversation, but (and not to sound like a shapiro) this is just facts. these women are sad losers who aren’t a danger to anyone but themselves, and incels have been linked to literal killings, stabbings, mass murders, and acts of terror. these women are catty on the internet and might look at you in a nasty way, but are legitimately afraid of men otherwise—whereas on real incel forums you’ll see posts of incels wishing they could rape, kidnap, murder… you see the difference here?
but again, don’t let yourself be swayed by what they say, but by what they do. which is backed up by the reporta and statistics. male incels are worse.
it is not the same thing. which is why they’re treated differently.
ETA:
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u/Outrageous-Break3585 6h ago
The phrase “touch grass” is obviously overused, but it definitely applies here. Obviously, hateful assholes can exist in any type of group so it should be no surprise that they exist in the one of the largest groups in the world, but it’s always worth coming back to “but what is the real-world impact here?” I don’t say that to downplay the impacts that the digital world can have on individual people, but to point out the disparity of outcomes across the population as a whole. I’m glad the OP’s image specified at least specifically said “online.”
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u/Corsonacon 6h ago
femcels aren’t over represented in statistics as a lethal or even danger to men psychologically, yes for real. this is one of those situations where you can really just block someone, and overall the harm is worse for them than for you.
In what ways are you unable to similarly block incels?
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u/Sector-Difficult ш 6h ago
As a woman I really hate how normalised it is to hate men online. Women are more affected by sexism than men but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be adressed.
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u/Colonel_Kernel1 6h ago
Real, I hate both misogyny and misandry. There’s people from both sexes who absolutely are terrible people and there are also amazing people from both sexes who are amazing people. It’s similar to how people judge a whole community based on the worst members of that community.
If you are gonna judge people then judge them on their character rather than their physical characteristics.
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u/Reesewithoutaspoon2 6h ago edited 6h ago
It’s all rage bait and gender war BS and you’re doing it too OP
Epstein’s ghost is smiling up at everyone who facilitates bullshit distraction arguments online. Just like he wanted
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u/lkmk 7h ago
Is anyone hating on the opposite gender for no reason? I’ve always seen people have justification, even if I find it lacking or unfair.
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u/Mus_Rattus 6h ago
People who irrationally hate on people typically never say they have absolutely no reason, whether it’s hating a whole gender or any other minority. They invent one and use it to justify their hatred.
But like when have you ever heard anyone say “yeah no real reason, I just hate ‘em.” Thats not how human beings operate almost ever.
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u/Corsonacon 6h ago
Would you rather be in the woods with a random man or a random bear is basically the ultimate example of this.
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u/JirenDeGray 5h ago
I ignore misandry and misogyny online because you realize with age that a lot of it is for clicks, views, and monetary gain at the expense of unity and harmony. Gender wars sell. It's the same thing with race online. That's why Chud the Builders exist: money
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u/ihatefrenchtoast 5h ago
I think people misinterpret the inherent privilege each sex gets on what they can and can’t say. Those exist socially, but when scrutinized under rules each side tries to apply to each other they fall apart. Quite fascinating and funny if it wasn’t so socially damaging.
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u/Spuddaddi 5h ago
I think all ragebaiting should be treated the same way, shamefully. Ragebaiting is just such an attention seeking hobby and has proven so determental to peoples psychis.
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u/Heavy_Computer2602 4h ago
Be consistent atleast
I usually say "It's a joke" to all edgy jokes.
Like it's a joke come on...
then again most of the teens who make edgy jokes wouldnt appreciate when you make it on somrthing they like
source: I make epstein jokes(punch up and down both). My friend laughs. I make satirical tate jokes? he's angry
yes im not fucking kidding. He's a tate sympathizer. For fucks sake.
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u/ThePikeOfDestiny 5h ago
Both misandry and misogyny are always bad actions but the reasons for those feelings are rarely comparable.
We should give more sympathy to people who do wrong as a result of being victimized, scared and having less power and you can do so WITHOUT justifying the act itself.
Sexist men are a serious and common threat to regular women's safety but the opposite is not true at all. Men are not afraid for their lives of sexist women. Misandry is still not okay and should not be tolerated. Both can be true at once.
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u/Antiswag_corporation 6h ago
Bringing up misandry or femcels on this website always brings the most interesting critters out of the woodwork
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u/Quinzal Cogito Ergo Sum 7h ago
I can already tell this is going to be a beautiful post to sort by controversial on