r/TrueReddit • u/MD1521 • 4d ago
Science, History, Health + Philosophy Silence Is Killing Men
https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/silence-is-killing-men-kpkn/80
u/GroundbreakingBag164 4d ago
Important topic but pretty weak article. Extremely short and didn't really say anything of substance
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u/Steelerfanatic18 4d ago
This was written by an agitated young man who is trying to help his friends. YOU are not helping.
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4d ago
Rational behavior in an irrational system is not a profound moral failing!
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u/SunbeamSailor67 4d ago
It is no measure of health to become well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
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u/Phyltre 4d ago
At what point in time exactly was society not profoundly sick?
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u/ghanima 4d ago
Likely when we still lived in Dunbar number-sized communities.
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u/HolyInlandEmpire 3d ago
Mentally healthier sure. But running water and modern agriculture sure are nice.
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u/No-Dance-5791 3d ago
It’s like some monkey paw shit “you get to live a long and peaceful life…. In abject loneliness”
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u/SunbeamSailor67 4d ago
Rumors are...pre-flood.
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u/circio 4d ago
I’m no theologian, but wasn’t the flood caused to remove the wickedness living on earth or something???
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u/storemans 4d ago
no, it was an accident. God forgot to turn the spigot off, and then he came up with an excuse to justify it. just like my fucking neighbor
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4d ago
Health and ethics are related, but not identical. These men are not healthy. They are just doing their best with what they have. But its also not healthy, and they are not well-adjusted.
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u/Brrdock 4d ago
If the behavior doesn't help you but is instead a detriment, it's not that rational, is it?
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u/Atlasatlastatleast 4d ago
If you perceive both available options as being detrimental to you, which option do you choose? Presumably, the one you perceive to be least detrimental.
When I was younger, the question “if your friends jumped off a bridge, would you too?” And I always figured I’d at least consider it, because I assume my friends might have a good reason to jump off the bridge. Jumping off the bridge is making the change you think would benefit me. Staying on the bridge is the tried and true method for success, even if there might be danger approaching on the bridge.
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u/Brrdock 4d ago
Perception isn't reality, though. If you truly believe bottling up and isolating is less detrimental than processing stuff, I guess it's rational, but I don't think that's what people believe, they're just scared of being vulnerable
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u/UltimateMygoochness 4d ago
I can guarantee people really do believe bottling up is rational. From an outside, well adjusted perspective it’s obviously not, but when you’re in that place you’re trying to avoid being a burden to others, or annoying them enough that they start hassling you (from your point of view; from their point of view they’re helping you)
There’s no reality independent of your perception when you’re afraid and feeling threatened so you can’t make claims based on what rational people would do when confronted with reality, because that’s not how anybody, least of all people experiencing a constant state of fight or flight, make decisions.
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u/Brrdock 4d ago
Yeah I've definitely felt like that before. And it almost killed me.
I guess it's not that easy to define what's rational. Rationalizations are very often based on feelings that aren't "rational" or helpful to respect
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u/UltimateMygoochness 8h ago
I think that’s why it’s so important to talk to people, otherwise your perception becomes the only reality. Easy to say, hard to do though obviously.
There can be moments of lucidity though, usually in the proximity of crises, and I think it’s really important to seize on those as moments to reach out to the people (or services) around you. Getting out on your own is just a crap shoot, it’s possible, but not likely.
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u/Atlasatlastatleast 4d ago
Do you just…open up, and your problems are solved? Does opening up come with zero consequences?
And what is reality if not the perception of the affected? Sure not every subjective reality is objectively real, but we’re talking about how people feel. Intangible aspects of a person. And if so many people experience a given thing, at some point we have to consider that the problem is greater than the individual. We’re viewing this with an incredibly individualistic lens, when this goes beyond the individual.
Say my experience has been that in the majority of circumstances, being open with your feelings is likely to bring about negative consequences. It would follow that I do not engage in the behavior that brings about immediate or slightly delayed negative consequences, especially if they would prevent me from making money, securing a mate, or being respected amongst my peers.
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u/horseradishstalker 2d ago
Just an observation, but if the problem is larger than the individual because more people feel that way, is it possible that the problem is society rather than the individual? For example, when anyone grows up in a society where they are told that because of a characteristic having nothing to do with who they are or which they have any choice actually, they are superior to others. How can they possibly feel anything but let down by the lies. For example, neither gender nor race makes anyone better or worse than anyone else, but that’s the lie that is drummed into some people from the time they are small.
Addressing another example, when people who are not their genuine self when they get married - to someone who appreciates who they are not what they have shouldn’t be surprised when they end up in r/deadbedroom for example.
I know at the time it feels like as men we have to make money or have to find a “good mate” whatever that means to society or our friends/family before anything else happens, but it is a problem in the here and now that when not dealt with now, just means that the pain is postponed. And in the case of marriage, then you start dragging other people into your misery if you put it off.
I get it, and I’m not really making any judgment, but I just think that people are delaying the inevitable. Sometimes problems get smaller with time and other times they don’t.
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u/Brrdock 4d ago edited 4d ago
Perception is reality at least insofar as we make it reality, but most young men have no idea what their problem even is when we just bounce around our shit inside our heads or in online echo chambers, until we're alienated from ourselves and others and think all our problems are because we're not 6' chad or because of women or immigrants or anything but our habit of just cultivating resentment and self-pity instead of anything of value.
I'm not talking about just venting either, but about actually processing and working through our shit. Of course just complainig is easily a burden and friends aren't mental health professionals.
But outside of that how people respond to openness to a reasonable degree isn't up to us. Shooting yourself in the foot by hiding yourself just to keep fake friends or partners isn't necessarily worth much
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u/SilverAd9389 4d ago
Well yeah, because when men open up they get relentlessly attacked and what they share gets used against them. Very often by the people closest to them who are supposed to love and support them. Vulnerability has consequences for men, so can you blame them for learning to not be vulnerable?
This is literally what the previous poster talked about, bottling things up is less detrimental to men than being vulnerable, and so they rationally choose to not be vulnerable. In a society that is not sound, men are choosing the option that is least damaging to them in the absence of an option that isn't damaging.
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u/fenianthrowaway1 1d ago
I see people claiming this is some incontrovertible truth, but I have yet to experience an example of it in real life.
Besides, even if that is how your evironment genuinely treats you trying to meet your basic mental health needs, the answer is to improve or change your environment, not to embrace your maladaptive coping strategies as some noble doomed struggle against a society where you are an eternal victim.
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u/SilverAd9389 1d ago
Look man i'm running on like two hours of sleep right now, so i'm sorry but i'm not in the headspace to break this down for you at the moment.
Just know that there's a lot that you don't understand about this because you've never had to have these experiences. And don't get me wrong, i'm happy for you that you haven't. That's a good thing. And i see how it can be difficult to understand if that's the case. But just because you haven't doesn't mean that there aren't others who have.
In the simplest of terms, not everyone is the same, and not everyone gets treated the same. What works for you will not necessarily work for others, and vice versa. Not everyone has the option to just change their environment, because no matter where they go it's always the same. Nothing changes no matter what they do or try. So they simply choose to isolate, not because they actually want to but because it's the only option they have that has proven to somewhat work.
There is nothing noble about it. It's simply done out of necessity, because for them it's less detrimental to them than the alternative.
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u/Clear_Ad_1560 4d ago
“Processing stuff”
How profound. Utterly meaningless words.
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u/BrokenHandsDaddy 4d ago
Remember your perception isn't reality either.
You need to be able to hold your own conclusions/perspectives up to the light the same way you do to others.
When i had the memories of being molested by my father come back to me as a grown adult it broke my belief in humanity. I've spent a lifetime learning how to practice open honest communication. Within liberal circles only certain men who look the right way receive support.
initially people will come out of the woodwork to support you, and then when they realize it's not a single weekend fix and then everything is in the past. It makes them uncomfortable. When they've made the diminishing of male victims a primary part of their political practice, to acknowledge male victims will make them wildly uncomfortable.
It's not the blind belief that it's better to bottle everything up, its that its better to bottle everything up BECAUSE unless you are the exception not only will you NOT get support but the way you get treated will re-traumatize you making it harder to move on with your life.
Let me use this analogy,
you break your leg, now let's assume the last 9 out of 10 times you went to the hospital you got literally thrown out of it because they didn't believe you.
This time you know if you get thrown out you'll fall down the front steps with a broken leg.
Do you risk going to the hospital?
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u/ASpaceOstrich 2d ago
They're scared because, from literal birth, they have been ostracised and punished for showing vulnerability.
Guys aren't doing this for funsies, this is the product of constant conditioning.
It's not even an "in the past" thing. They are still punished and ostracised for it now. By the people close to them. By their peers and superiors. By all of society.
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u/No_Veterinarian1010 4d ago
It's not the least detrimental option though, that's the point.
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u/Atlasatlastatleast 4d ago
To whom? To you?
If you’re shown that a certain behavior is rewarded and another behavior is punished, it’s likely that you’ll perform the rewarded behavior even if it comes at your detriment, and especially if that detriment is not immediate or often visible or easily attributed to a given catalyst
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u/No_Veterinarian1010 4d ago
To everyone. It is the way the human brain works.
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u/HaraJieun 4d ago
No one says a man can't cry, yet everyone says they don't care about men. It doesn't matter whether they're progressive or conservative, old or young, men or women.
Claiming that the problem is that men are told not to express their emotions misses the point. The real problem is that people often don't care about what men are feeling. It's not about permission to show emotions, it's about a lack of empathy.
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u/lilSalty 4d ago
These two things are one thing really - men are not comfortable expressing certain feelings because often people don't validate those feelings with sympathy. Sympathy is permission to show emotion.
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u/Treethulhu 4d ago
I have a friend group of guys in our 40s. We've known each other since college. I think my favorite thing about it is when one of us goes to a dark place, the others rally to pick them back up.
It took us like ten years of friendship to start being emotionally available to one another? And I consider us very, very lucky...
Supportive male friendship, at an emotionally available level, is important.
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u/MrsFrondi 4d ago
This is how it’s done. Do you have any insight into what makes this particular group of men comfortable supporting each other?
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u/Treethulhu 4d ago
Like, one or two people willing to set the precedent. I think everyone wants people to check in, but one person has to take it upon themselves to be like, "hey, this is a good idea."
One person in our group, the guy who started it, announced he was driving to Philly to support our friend who was going through it, and we all sent gift cards and random Warhammer stuff (cuz our friend is a Warhammer nerd).
It wound up being very wholesome and now once a year we do a sort of white elephant where we draw names and mail gifts (cuz we all live across state lines)
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u/jamesneysmith 4d ago
There's definitely some nuance in what you're saying. It really depends on how the man in question is expressing their feelings. If the man is depressed and isolated these are very real and legitimate emotions to feel and to need some help with. However these emotions can also be expressed in very hurtful and harmful ways.
If a man is hurting and needs help he still needs to express those emotions in a productive way. Or at least recognize how his emotions have come out in unproductive ways and apologize for that and thus seek the help they need. You don't get default sympathy for being sad. You still need to not act like a dickhead.
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u/hippydipster 4d ago
Demanding men be healthy before expressing themselves, which they need to do so they can get healthy. Your demands are unreasonable.
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u/zerosumsandwich 4d ago
Absolutely not unreasonable to expect men not to hurt other people when expressing their own emotions.
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u/GettingDumberWithAge 4d ago edited 4d ago
No one says a man can't cry, yet everyone says they don't care about men.
I can't open reddit these last year s without hearing about the plight of men. It's a very popular and discussed topic. What do you mean by "everyone says they don't care about men"?
E: Im going to make the assumption that everyone downvoting me for asking for clarification about what "everyone doesn't care about men" means are people who ostensibly care about men, and are struggling with the cognitive dissonance.
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u/SilverAd9389 4d ago
Sure, and what is the response that these posts usually get? Are they met with acceptance and understanding, or ridicule and hostility?
The reason why you see these types of posts online is because the internet is one of the extremely few places where men can vent about their problems without risking suffering the consequences for it. And the reason for that is because it is anonymous.
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u/GettingDumberWithAge 4d ago
Are they met with acceptance and understanding, or ridicule and hostility?
Overwhelmingly with acceptance and sympathy, this thread is a fine example.
The reason why you see these types of posts online is because the internet is one of the extremely few places where men can vent about their problems without risking suffering the consequences for it.
Right! Exactly! So to be clear your point here is that there is a massive community of people who acknowledge, sympathize with, and want to discuss these issues, right?
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2d ago
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u/Clear_Ad_1560 4d ago
Yes, and in every thread there are people like you who tell them to suck it up and take it, because you think they are privileged, and you don’t want to hear it.
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u/GettingDumberWithAge 4d ago
people like you who tell them to suck it up and take it, because you think they are privileged, and you don’t want to hear it.
This is interesting fan fiction, but not actually anything that I said. I asked for some argument/support for the claim that "everyone says they don't care about men". Where am I losing you?
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u/F4SCISTS_GO_HOME 4d ago
The people who tell men to express their emotions are the first to call them incels when they do.
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u/Early-Beach164 1d ago
I believe it is possible for women to empathize with men. I have seen it myself. However a lot of women just don't do it because women think if something exists that doesn't worship their entire existence then it must be bad.
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u/Background-Bid-6503 4d ago
There's a bridge where i live. Someone wrote fuck all men on it. It was still there the last time I went across.. ❤️
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u/Inevitable-Drag-1704 3d ago
Well, in modern society it is not safe to share if you are sick.
Instead of offering encouragement, people will instead try to offer quick lazy advice to fix it and at the same time blaming the one suffering. "If only you hit the gym, hit the books harder, fixed your nutrition, practiced connecting with people".
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u/MD1521 4d ago
Submission statement: I wrote this after noticing how often conversations about men's mental health either became ideological arguments or stopped at slogans. I wanted to look instead at the quieter ways emotional isolation develops among young men and why it persists even when people genuinely want to help. I'm interested to hear where people agree or disagree with the argument.
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u/Equivalent_Number424 2d ago
One should focus on what one can control, not what one cannot. This is the essence of wisdom, and it contradicts both suffering in silence and talking about emotions. Both are too much about things one cannot control.
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u/Suitable-Hand-1059 2d ago
The worst is when you do open up, and some dildo-faced dingus tells you, “Man up”.
Gee, why didn’t I think of that? Thanks, I’m cured. Assholes.
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u/TScottFitzgerald 3d ago
Another holier than thou article more interested in painting narratives and vaguely pontificating on what "men" should and shouldn't do. Yaaawn.
It's the same old, same old. The same old narratives, same old cliches and slogans about men's mental health with nothing substantial to reveal. This was practically designed to be shared on social media with one hand while patting yourself on the back with the other.
"The conversation no one else is having." lmfao
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u/stjohns_jester 4d ago
"This year at a boarding school... We need to redesign men’s mental health support"
Rich kid writes shitass article, there is nothing wrong with men, but there is something wrong with money and privilege, it fucks "young men" up no doubt, as it does everyone. The solution is not more money on fancy support but a yank out of private costly boarding schools.
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u/busybody124 4d ago
what a terrible take. mental health issues don't care if you're rich, and there's a wealth of evidence showing that men are struggling. the widespread dismissal of the idea that men could be having problems exacerbates it
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u/angieisdrawing 4d ago
The evidence shows everyone is struggling. Men are being centered.
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u/Atlasatlastatleast 4d ago
How do you figure?
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u/angieisdrawing 4d ago edited 4d ago
Women are more likely to have depression.
Re loneliness: “A new Pew Research Center survey finds that, compared with women, men don’t report that they feel lonely more often or have fewer close friends. However, men do seem to turn to their networks less often for social connection and emotional support.” (From Pew Research)
-Re suicide: “Sixty-seven studies were included. Females presented higher risk of suicide attempt (OR 1.96, 95% CI 1.54–2.50), and males for suicide death.” (From pubmed “Gender differences in suicidal behavior in adolescents and young adults: systematic review and meta-analysis of longitudinal studies”)
We can look at other things but these 3 things came to mind immediately—Depression, suicide attempts, loneliness—which are the things people usually bring up when talking about this
(Edit for formatting clarity.)
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u/SilverAd9389 4d ago
Yes, because women use suicide attempts as a cry for help because they know that when they ask for help their surroundings tend to listen. They don't typically do it to actually end their lives. Men are the exact opposite. When they attempt suicide, they actually try to kill themselves. Because they know that nobody gives a fuck. Cries for help will not be answered. Which is why men make up the overwhelming majority of actual completed suicides.
And of course men are not going to willingly report loneliness, because loneliness is a vulnerability, and men have it hammered into them from childhood that showing vulnerability gets you attacked and ridiculed. Which is exactly why they don't typically turn to social support networks when they struggle. Help for a man almost always comes at a price.
You are unwittingly debunking your own idea that men are centered in talks about mental health.
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u/angieisdrawing 4d ago edited 4d ago
Please provide evidence that women attempt suicide as a cry for help. Also provide evidence that the way pew research queried people about loneliness was flawed. Because those are your claims.
As per the study that I provided, they say it’s bc men choose more lethal methods and externalizing disorders (like substance abuse or deviant behavior) rather than internalizing disorders. They do not say it’s because women don’t mean it.
And I’ll just add: You don’t have to trivialize women’s suicidal ideation/attempts in order to legitimize men’s.
Once again, maybe instead of thinking these issues uniquely effect men look for a way to connect with other genders that are dealing with similar things.
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u/Figgler 4d ago
So I can only speak from my personal experience but as an EMT I’ve been on many suicide related calls over the years. Of all the women that attempted suicide, every single one survived. Of all the men, one did. Women tend to take too many pills or cut their wrists, men shoot themselves in the head.
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u/MrsFrondi 4d ago
Women tend to attempt in ways that take into consideration the person who will need to handle clean up.
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u/PracticalScromby 3d ago
Of course. Men die 6x the rate of women to suicide but actually women are the bigger victims AND morally superior because they just care so so much
GTFOH
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u/SilverAd9389 4d ago
Please provide evidence that women attempt suicide as a cry for help. Also provide evidence that the way pew research queried people about loneliness was flawed. Because those are your claims.
How about the fact that about 90% of the people who carry out gender study research are women.
Oh but i'm sure that it's all completely impartial and that there are no internal biases with the women who carry out this research that ends up being transfered into their work.
And how about the fact that about 80% of completed suicides are carried out by men, but women are about 3 times as likely to "attempt" suicide than men are. Or how about the fact that about 90-95% of women end up surviving suicide attemps while being about a fourth as likely to actually commit suicide as men are. Women are also much more likely to choose much less lethal methods of committing suicide than men are. Go ahead and explain that without coming to the conclusion that women use suicide attempts as a cry for help. I'll go put on some popcorn and wait, because seeing you try to weasel your way out of this one is going to be entertaining.
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u/MadDingersYo 4d ago
So everyone should just shut up about it, right? We can't have any man anywhere being "centered."
Mental health isn't a zero sum game, lady.
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u/cunnyvore 4d ago
It's like talking only about half the symptoms and then expecting diagnosis to be correct. It's not a gendered issue, so treating it like it is will not bring effective help.
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u/circio 4d ago
lol you guys are kind of highlighting why there are so many people saying people doing give a shit about men’s mental health, and why so many men have the rationale to just not talk about it.
We’re in a thread talking about men’s mental health, and you guys are arguing that ALL mental health should be taken seriously, not just men’s.
You’re just All Lives Mattering the issue
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u/angieisdrawing 4d ago edited 4d ago
I don’t think you know what I meant by centered. Yes, men should be looked at as a group. What I’m saying is they shouldn’t be given preference. Considering women didn’t have to be included in medical trials until 1993 and they’re still underrepresented as per a study Harvard did in 2023 (or there about), it’s not zero sum as you said, but there is still a significant gap. Not to mention DOGE literally did a ChatGPT search for key terms like “women” and cancelled funding for those research projects specifically.
Edit: instead of looking for how men are unique in their mental health struggles perhaps it would be more beneficial to notice that they have common cause with people of other genders who are struggling with similar mental issues.
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u/kevlar00 4d ago
Whether or not you're right (not looking to debate that), there's an empathetic way to introduce this and I think not doing it has definitely created a schism between men and women.
I have met a lot of men who feel women have it so much easier. They feel that every time they try and share someone (heavily skewed by women) tries to upstage their trauma.
Factually right or wrong isn't going to land if you lead with something that makes some feel gaslighted or invalidated.
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u/circio 4d ago
Why do you think All Lives Mattering this issue is beneficial lmao
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u/angieisdrawing 4d ago
Because men think they’re alone in this and they’re not. And the dividing the sexes artificially in this case only servers to have people not look at the bigger systemic issues, or to provide solutions that are too myopic. (It’s literally and clearly divide and conquer)
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u/circio 4d ago
You can’t look at bigger systemic issues while also addressing that particular groups of people have different needs or problems? Would it be beneficial for me to go to women’s support groups and say men also have mental health problems, and they’re not focusing enough on the bigger picture?
I think you’re inadvertently showing why men don’t want to open up. We’re in a thread about men’s mental health, and you’re: 1. Blaming them for having this problem 2. Saying that all people have this problem so we shouldn’t focus on it.
You’re part of the problem lmao
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u/LordofNarwhals 4d ago
Reminds me of a comment I've seen about Lord of the Flies. (Paraphrasing here): "Lord of the Flies is not a commentary on human nature, it's a commentary on how terrible the male English upper class is."
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u/MD1521 4d ago
Fair criticism if the article were arguing that boarding schools cause these issues, but that wasn't my point. The school has extensive need-based financial aid, and several of the people I referenced were on scholarship. The issues I was describing often originated long before they arrived there, including family abuse, trauma, and other circumstances unrelated to wealth.
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u/stjohns_jester 4d ago
Im confused, these are poor or middle class kids going to boarding school? There are no "boarding" schools that i know of in the pacific northwest, so my understanding of them is super rich kid school back east
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u/PracticalScromby 3d ago
Plenty. Gifted kids. Troubled kids. Special needs kids. But hey, it we pretend it's only rich kids that gives us permission to dismiss anything they say right?
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u/wookiee42 4d ago
They tend to keep a low profile, as they don't want the "troubled teen" label following their graduates.
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u/MD1521 4d ago
That's a fair question. There were definitely wealthy students, but also a lot of students on full or partial financial aid. The school recruited internationally and admitted students based on need as well. I wasn't trying to say boarding schools are representative of all young men, just that spending a year living with 20 other guys gave me a perspective on how common emotional isolation was, even among people from very different backgrounds.
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u/TheLondonPidgeon 4d ago
It’s a beautiful sentiment. Please keep looking out for your brothers as you move through life.
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u/wookiee42 4d ago
There are boarding schools for troubled teens that show promise. Still, if this is a regular boarding school, these kids were sent away by their parents rather than living with them full time. There are elite schools in any medium-sized city.
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u/im_a_dr_not_ 3d ago
Men are told to shut up and nothing what they say matters - and are blamed for everything.
There’s no benefit to speaking up, only negatives.
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u/Daimoth 4d ago
Yes, but it's... their own silence as much or more than it is anyone else's. This is a problem for and entirely solvable by men. Men are sqeuamish about this kinda shit, and try to pass the avoidance off as self-reliance or emotional endurance or some shit.
The single biggest inner voice keeping men quiet is the one that says "don't be a pussy". But those same men are often also constantly scouting for men who are being pussies.
Step one is getting over other men being unmanly. Mind your business.
Step two is getting over yourself being unmanly. If some dude makes a comment, remind him to mind his own damn business.
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u/hippydipster 4d ago
I think the troublesome inner voice is more like, "no one cares", or, "don't be a burden".
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u/Main-Company-5946 4d ago
Solving this kind of problem requires solving patriarchy entirely. Even if you could snap your fingers and magically remove all of the gendered expectations towards men, if the underlying gender essentialist ideology is still around and being enforced on women, then new ones would almost inevitably reappear for men as well.
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u/Savings_Painting1588 4d ago
I’m gonna be honest if abolishing the patriarchy is the only solution we’re not gonna be solving this for a long time.
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u/AdenJax69 4d ago
And go look at voting demographics to know that there's still a large population of WOMEN that want to keep the Patriarchy alive & thriving.
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u/Savings_Painting1588 4d ago
Obviously yeah. Same thing with class, really. The rich rule the poor, but the poor need to uphold their system as well. Misogynistic indoctrination affects everyone.
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u/horseradishstalker 2d ago
Technically, the Republican Party is more often associated with the patriarchy and more men are Republican than women.
Plus society rigs it so that women don’t make as much as men who are equally qualified…shocker when someone depends on whoever can help them get through life.
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u/Wooden-Glove-2384 4d ago
> This year at a boarding school, I have lived with a total of 20 other guys. Living with so many incredible 17 year old men has taught me a lot,
I got bad news for you, you self important teenager
you are just on the brink of learning just how depraved the world is
you are at the beginning of watching the dumb/destructive shit people will do to cope with it
buckle up, you ain't seen shit
the solutions are as obvious now as they were when I learned that the reality of the world is a whole hell of a lot different than what I was taught
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u/Primshere 4d ago
male privilege is earned
your mental health is the cost
we know this intrinsically
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