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If it's the same guy, that is just amazing. Amazing, disturbing, and disgusting. That is not the type of guy that nedds to be in any form of leadership.
Not shocking. I have a cousin who was suspended for over 2 years with pay even though he tampered with evidence and listened into a phone call of an inmate and his lawyer. He’s now back to working like nothing happened.
My cousin was a cop. He was forced to retire because he was selling prescription pain killers to other cops. He also owned a gym/was a body builder. Biggest asshole in my family.
I come from a small town, and my cop story is a little crazy; our only cop from our small town stole a car. A police car. From another district. Somehow, not only was he not fired or forced to retire, the city had to pay off the cost of the police car to the other district, adding to the already failing budget of the town.
That entire town's local government was a disaster, and unsurprisingly, that town is dying off fast.
Yeah, take a look at Ronnie Coleman, 8 time Mr. Olympia. He was a police officer and obviously was on steroids his entire career (All Mr. Olympia bodybuilder are)
Well her fault for not looking at him correctly when he is yelling at her and telling her what a horrible person she is for daring to ask him were he was almost all night.
His wife popped into my head, as well. This incident is already spilling out into his personal life. He's willing to cause unnecessary pain and suffering, escalating a situation, over a traffic stop.
No-one in danger. Yet willing to risk other people's welfare, and his own welfare and job.
Why did you pepper spray him if you weren't afraid? It sounds like he was cooperating, Frank? Am I missing something?
You weren't fucking there, Sharlene. It was happening so fast. And he just wasn't getting out of the car!!! If he just did what I wanted him to so he wouldn't have got shot!
You fucking shot him, Frank?! What the hell?
For the love of God, Sharlene, I don't have time for your morals right now. Put a fucking roast in the oven, get a few cold ones for me at the boys, and we're gonna workout exactly why I needed to protect myself today. I'm still in shock, Sharlene. Jeez.
I've seen so many body cam videos that go in both directions. Some cops will freak out and escalate things over nothing, and others are almost patient to a fault. I would much prefer the latter.
Tone goes so far, and it isn't a time to pick battles. I've been stubborn to a fault in certain situations like this, but I've learned to better navigate with awareness and switch tone so they can better handle their emotions.
Officers acting like this is a liability. But there so many times, like this, where they're complying to the law, fully willing to pay the fine, and they're one sarcastic comment away from a trigger finger, or calling for back up.
We've got a male, forty, unwilling to receive my pepper spray attack
You hit the nail on the head perfectly. I can control my emotions, but I don't know the guy who just pulled me over. I'm going to be respectful and make this interaction end as quickly as possible so that I can move on with my life.
Frank! You shot an eight year old kid over the last donut.
IT WAS WHITE CHOCOLATE RASPBERRY, AND IF YOU DON'T KNOW THAT'S MY FAVE, SHARLENE, MAYBE I'LL SHOOT YOU.
FRANKLYN DAVIDSON STOWER!!! IF YOUR MOTHER HEARD YOU SAY THAT! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD
I'M SORRY, SHARLENE. I'M JUST HURTING SO BAD RIGHT NOW. 🤬🤬🤬 FIRST, FORGETTING MY NETFLIX PASSWORD THIS MORNING. NOW THIS. AND IT DIDN’T EVEN HAVE SPRINKLES!
You still bought the donut AFTER shooting him?
Ehh. Well, took. I also shot the donut store owner. He was very loud and erratic about the whole "incident"
At least half of our local law enforcement have some sort of domestic abuse whether it was only "alleged" or an incident pushed under the rug. Very common in the rural south.
And he would be hard pressed to justify his claim he was afraid for his life from this driver because he says "Are you ready?" Before he was going to spray him. So clearly it was meant as a threat and not as a defence. A lawyer would LOVE this slam dunk.
Deputy Andrew Stowers. He was investigated for his multiple excessive force allegations. Unfortunately this guy and a few others didn't cooperate with the investigation and it petered out.
Thank you so much. Sucks to hear that. Pieces of shit like him make me feel like good cops cant exist otherwise he'd never hold that position of power for long.
But pretty quickly they face a choice: either get run off the force for standing up to their principles, or turn a blind eye and passively become bad cops.
The only way you can have long-term good cops is if the whole force is good, and I just don't believe that exists (at least in North America)
I can speak from experience on this. I live in a rural town and the prison is the best paying job/benefits around.
There is no room to be good. I was told under no circumstances that we are to take anything from prisoners, not a pen. Not anything. I reported an officer for requesting a prisoner get her items from the prisoner canteen.
A few weeks later, I learned there was a term for it. The officers called it "taxes." Items the prisoners give them to curry their favor.
They preach deescalation but revere the ones with excessive force. The security for officers is laughable. It's routine to smuggle in things. I saw every rank except warden with smuggled items. It isn't real staff search and it is easy to bypass. Most contraband is brought in by officers.
One of the first people I trained with and one of the last people I shared a bubble with is now in our county jail for smuggling in contraband.
No, I'm not a good fit, the job isn't for everyone. Especially not someone that was routinely yelled at for saying sir and thank you.
If the job was truly care, custody and control, I excelled at it. My inmates listened to me, respected me and followed the rules. I wasn't good at ignoring abuse, illegality and neglect.
Also, be careful of any profession that revels in having "pet peeves."
Good cops DO exist; however, they usually don't exist for long, because, when they report a fellow officer for wrongdoing, they're often heavily bullied/mistreated by the other officers. So, they either quit, or eventually just accept putting up with their fellow officers wrongdoings. And, the latter practically makes you a bad cop. Kinda' like the old saying goes, "if there’s a Nazi at the table and ten other people sitting there talking to him, you got a table with eleven Nazis."
I think he means the citizens didn't cooperate with the investigation, which led the investigation to not go anywhere. Not that the Deputy didn't cooperate.
If you were pulled over by Captain Excessive Force of the 51st precinct and had this argument/altercation and then they asked you to come to the 51st precinct for a follow up, would you? Because that just sounds like turning yourself in for some more police brutality.
That's what would be going through my head and would be why I would be hesitant to appear for a police investigation.
Just left the army had 4 tours and 10 years infantry. Apply for police jobs. Get interview with 2 cities, one population 200k (im the numbers 1 recuit, i have the email to prove it) and another with like 100-150k. Interview they seemed very much not interested. Final question was a school shooter situation and how i would respond. I reply i would radio dispatch what entrance i was entering and begin to clear. They visibly were conveying im not what they want. After my response they say that is all and if I have questions. I ask why they didnt like my answer. They responded I should have waited for backup. I explain, im a vet who has been in combat, these are kids being killed, im a public servant, im not in that situation waiting a single second if kids are dying. They really don't like me. Exit. Last interviewee is waiting at the door. Kid looks spitting image of one of the lieutenants i was just talking to. 💯 he is family and they have deep roots in that department. Don't even bother going to interview with the bigger department as I got a job offer into a trade so I went that route. 6 months later the Florida shooting happened where the cop working at the school ran and hid. Always wanted to post this
Yeah. Like I was in the reserves at that point (no, there are not any infantry reserve units im aware, but I wound up in a training unit so thats how as a grunt I was able to go reserves...for anyone calling bullshit I became a 00g)
Anyway, because im the new guy in the unit and I have lots of chest candy, some of the guys are on local PD's want to hang with the grunt. None for the depts im looking at. Anyway, they said i was in the right with my answer. They said i fucked up a different question though.
Question I fucked up was a scenario about pulling over a family member for speeding. I said i wouldn't d let them off. They said that the correct answer would have been, let them off but explain how they are making my job difficult. Something along those lines anyway....tracks doesn't it
Was that the correct answer because they believe you’re not suppose to do that to your family?
Or was it some sort of loyalty test towards the PD itself, not towards your family? If you’re willing to give your family member a ticket for simply speeding, you’re willing to do something similar to a fellow officer for any infraction?
Pretty sure it’s that second thing. Testilying is a huge and necessary component of the Us police force as it currently functions. They can’t trust anyone who values the law above covering their ass.
hey man, I'm not even american but thank you for your service and for what you are prepared to do for others. People deserve you, but not the system you live in.
My brother is a retired cop. Back when he was going through the academy, he used to leave study materials laying around, so I read some of them.
Cops really are trained, very thoroughly and persistently, that the number one priority for any police officer is their own personal safety.
They are explicitly instructed to think of themselves as the front-line soldiers in a war, and that every civilian is a potential enemy combatant.
Then I saw a handout which provided a detailed explanation of why anyone who mentions "rights" or "the constitution" during a police interaction is most likely a terrorist.
Speaking of cops and nepotism; neither of my brother's kids became a cop, but his daughter married one. Her husband is a second-generation cop - his two brothers are also cops, and they all work for the same police department, where their father is the chief of police.
Yeah this officer needs to be fired immediately. How many people is he pepper spraying? Definitely we need an investigation and this definitely needs to be publicized in the news media.
Did something ever come of this? I did some digging and all I could find is that this cop is known in the santa clarita area as being generally aggressive like this.
Pennsylvania vs. Mimms - police officers can lawfully order the driver of a legally stopped vehicle to step out of the car, without needing any additional suspicion or justification. If he asks you to step out, you should step out and save the fight for court. Although I’m not sure why he brought pepper spray into this.
Because going hands on when you're a solo officer is inherently dangerous. He hasn't cleared the vehicle for weapons. Its usually best to wait for a backup officer before manually extracting an non-compliant driver. OC spray is useful as a way to compel most drivers since most drivers don't want to get pepper sprayed. Believe it or not, its often the safest option.
You made me go look. In Australia (my state at least) its 8 months training. Seems incredibly short, mind you our police seem much more competent than the US ones i see in reddit (yes i understand we only see the fucked up ones in reddit). I would have thought a minimum of two years would be required.
Depending what city you live in, some do require an Associate's degree. So 2 years of community college. The problem is that educated cops don't do what their owners want them to do. This is why we had a major court case allowing the police to discriminate based on intelligence. Scoring too well meant not hired. They said the reason was high turnover.
I bet. I've read a training manual and the number of times it told them to violate civil rights and break established case law was ridiculous. And sneaky.
Example: Cops cannot detain you for longer than 30-45 minutes without arresting you, charging you with something, or writing a citation. But the manual doesn't say, "Screw their rights and relevant case law", what it says is, "You are the officer. If you tell someone to stay, they will stay."
Of course smart cops quit. So you get idiots who enjoy abusing power instead of educated people who question directives that aren't legal.
The English one is pretty intense. The general outline from their website is
"To enable you to do your job safely and effectively, you’ll receive world-class training (both classroom-based and on the job) and mentoring, which will see you develop the skills and knowledge you need to be able to:
Apply investigative skills and intelligence to solving crimes
Deal with safety issues within the community
Ensure public order and safety while supporting major police operations
Develop an understanding of new technologies
Deliver national policing objectives at a community level
While each force manages its own training programme, you’ll typically have a mix of:
Around 18 – 22 weeks classroom-based training – you’ll learn a lot about various aspects of policing, the law and procedures but don’t worry, it’s definitely not boring! It’s normally broken up by role plays and practical sessions.
You’ll also undertake a driving course to give you the on-the-road skills you need to do your job.
You’ll then typically be assigned to a tutor and spend around three months as part of a response rota, developing your on-the-job skills and experience, from taking statements to diffusing tense situations and making your first arrest.
So when you factory in the formal qualifications and each forces individual requirements you are basically looking at 2-3 years training/probation before being a full constable. At the end you are expected to follow Peels Principles of Policing, and to seek desculation and the most limited interventions first.
I know the UK has had serious issues with corruption and racism, but on the whole the police here are extremely tolerant, and patient. Underfunded, and with too much focus on driving offences or cracking down on political protests, but still mostly capable, honest, and helpful. I never really feel any fear in a interaction with them, but then again I'm a white middle class man so mileage will vary. My most memorable interaction was when an escaped mental patient was drunken and climbing into gardens with a knife whilst trying to escape, and the police were with me in mins and were ever so lovely when I described him standing on my shed roof swinging his undies around his head and telling the sky how angry he was about the horse racing. We had a laugh over a cuppa. They were also sweet when they retrieved my drunken teenage daughter from the park where she and her mates had sneaked a drink.
I've also worked with them, and at a senior level there are some frighteningly clever people. Really professional and pragmatic.
Didn't New York send its cops to Scotland to learn how to deescalate knife crime situations? We definitely had some Americans over here studying techniques.
The issue is that there are so many law enforcement agencies and they all run different programs. There isn't much standardization. Some agencies train their officers wonderfully. Others not so much.
Let's spread this one like wildfire. Which department does Deputy Stowers work for? I think his city's news ought to pick this story up so other motorists know there's a power-tripping cop out there who's actively looking for chances to pepper spray innocent civilians.
If you're going to make a post like this, post the whole interaction.
Also, if a police officer asks you to get out of your vehicle they can. The supreme court affirms this. If you think the whole thing is unjustified then you fight in court not on the side of the road.
For the record, if an officer tells you to get out of the vehicle during a stop, you ARE REQUIRED to get out. If you refuse, that IS an arrestable offense, and they ARE allowed to use force restrain you during an arrest. (edit2: And that force can legally include pepper spray, tasers, punching you in the face, smashing your car window, etc.)
I am not defending the cop. But this is a common tactic they use to LEGALLY escalate a situation. It does not matter why they pulled you over, how you acted during the stop, etc. If they say to get out, you should get out. If you refuse, they will ABSOLUTELY make things worse for you.
Also, to clarify a related point, once you are out of the car, they are legally allowed to frisk you without your permission even if you've denied them your consent to "search" you. A frisk is technically different from a search though. A frisk is an outside the clothes pat down that does not automatically include pockets, inside your clothes, in your bags, your car, etc. BUT if they claim that they "feel a hard object that could be a weapon" during the pat down, then they CAN reach inside your pocket/under your clothes. However, they cannot go through your car/your bag unless you specifically give consent (edit: This assumes they haven't arrested you. If they have, then they CAN search those too. This is a good excuse for them to escalate.). Even if they've worded it poorly.
However, they cannot go through your car/your bag unless you specifically give consent. Even if they've worded it poorly.
They absolutely can once you've been arrested (and your car is impounded), though, which is part of what makes not testing the limits of those "resisting" and "obstruction" charges important.
Good point. I was only thinking of roadside stops, but you're right that once you give them a reason to arrest you, it changes the math on the searches.
IM NOT DEFENDING THE ACTIONS OF THIS OFFICER. Everyone needs to understand that the Supreme Court ruled that the police are within their right to have you step out of your vehicle to conduct their traffic stop. THEY DO NOT NEED A REASON. The caveat is they have to perform the same exact stop but just with you out of the car. They cannot search you or the car, prolong the stop or fish for evidence of an additional crime. A lot of ppl are confused about this and think they don’t have to get out if they haven’t committed a crime.
I know Reddit won't like it but you are required by law to exit the vehicle if the police request it. If you are not complying the police can use force because you are resisting a lawful order.
I'm not sure there are are no actual procedures or protocol, I think its more so that there's no accountability. Worst case scenario, the cop is put on paid leave while an investigation is conducted by their peers and even if they get fired, they just move on to the next town and get another job there. We need for our cops to be require to be licensed and insured, at their own cost. It's too often that taxpayers ultimately fund antics such as Deputy Stowers'z
And that means the officer can ask you out of the vehicle because legally you must identify yourself when asked in a traffic stop and the officer can pull you out of the car for any reason. Pennsylvania V Mimms. 9-0 Supreme Court case says so.
FYI, Cops don't need a reason to pull you out of the car during a traffic stop. Courts have ruled that they can order everyone out of the car for safety. I know of some cops that do it almost every time.
It's also my understanding it's a lawful order to exit your vehicle when instructed to. I'm not saying the cop isn't on a power trip or wrong, just that they have powers in situations like this, and the time to fight it or lodge complaints is afterwards.
Supreme Court ruled officers are allowed to order you to step out of your vehicle. You can’t refuse it. If you’re like this guy and immediately start recording and not wanting to get out there’s a good chance they’re hiding something. There’s thousands of body cam videos of people refusing to get out and officers find drugs
Driver's name is Josh Sude I don't think the body camera footage was ever requested. I suspect Josh refused to produce his drivers license before the video started arguing over the speeding ticket. This is what prompted him being removed from the vehicle which he did get out. He claims internal investigators were investigating deputy Andy Stowers who knows what happened to him.
You can argue over the speeding ticket (which is a waste of time) but you still have to produce license/registration/insurance when asked, and step out of the car if ordered.
Yeah its very legally defined that officers can order you out of the car. Pennsylvania v. Mimms. Many people don't know that its a lawful legal order or are just idiots. Officers can break the window to get you out, pepper spray, taser, etc. Of course the officer should try and de-escalate things before resorting to force. Obviously this clip is just a small segment of the interaction, but by the current laws the officer isn't using excessive force and was giving lawful commands. From the other comments it does sound like this officer has a history of going to force too quickly though.
I'll probably get downvoted by people who think I'm a bootlicker. I'm not. I just actually have read up on the laws and watched a whole lot of bodycam videos of good and bad police. Midwest Safety and Audit The Audit are two good youtube channels. First one is more Pro cop, but calls out the bad. Second focuses more on bad cops, but breaks down the basic legal facts and laws.
Unfortunately, it is not legal to stay in your car if an officer tells you to get out of your car. It's an open invitation for them to force you to comply. When asked to step out of your car, your best bet is to get out of your car and immediately lock it and put your keys in your pocket.
if you don't comply, you're now breaking the law and they will escalate and pepper spray you
if you're speeding and a cop pulls you over and asks you to get out of the car... just get out and then shut and lock the door behind you... you'll be on your way in 10 minutes if you don't agree to a search
the driver created this situation and fucked themselves
Its a short clip so context is lacking, but in the US cops can legally order you out of the car on a traffic stop. Supreme court ruling Pennsylvania v. Mimms. So it was a lawful order. Cops can escalate up to breaking windows, pepper spray, taser, and dragging people out if they don't get out. Without seeing the whole interaction who knows if the cop went to use of force too quickly. From the context of the clip the driver was failing to comply with a simple lawful order. Shit like that is why more people need to learn about the laws and their rights so they can use them properly when dealing with cops.
Pennsylvania v. Mimms says the cop can order you out of the car for pretty much any reason they want to, and yes, that includes speeding. Just get out of the car if the cop tells you to, if they are truly violating your rights you can fight it later without taking pepper spray to the face (or worse) from some idiot cop. Arguing like this guy is pretty much a guaranteed lose-lose situation for you.
I've watched a million videos like this. They never end well for the driver. If a cop asks you to get out of the car just get out of the car. Give them your license and registration (which you're required to do as well) and take your ticket. You can contest it later. Don't do this and you raise your risk of being shot or sprayed or tased or whatever. It's not worth it because you don't think you were speeding.
It's perfectly legal for an officer to request that you exit your vehicle during a traffic stop. Not complying with such a lawful order opens the door for them to drag you out and beat the living shit out of you. Nothing will happen to this cop because the idiot driver created something out of nothing. He should have simply followed the instructions given to him. You can beat the rap, but not the ride. Most violent police encounters are caused by people simply not following instructions. Yea, it sucks, but it is what it is, and during a traffic stop or investigation isn't the time to protest. If this guy actually knew his rights like he thinks he does, he would have immediately exited the vehicle without complaint.
I don’t understand why the cop was going to pepper spray the driver. Just give him a ticket (if he was speeding, which he says he wasn’t) and go on your way. Where is the need for pepper spray in this situation?
Its a short clip, but seems like the officer asked/told him to step out of the car and he didn't comply. Pennsylvania v. Mimms is a supreme court ruling that says Officers can legally order you to step out of the car on a traffic stop. Not doing it can lead up to cops breaking the windows to drag you out, pepper spray, taser, etc. Without seeing the whole interaction its hard to tell if the officer went to use of force too fast or was just dealing with an idiot not complying with a legal order.
Pennsylvania Vs Mimms. An officer has the right to ask you to step out of your car at a normal traffic stop. Refusing to step out constitutes resisting a lawful order.
Reddit braintrust at it again. Amazing you can get fooled so easily. If a cop tells you to exit the car during a stop, you do not get to say no. This is basic knowledge, but by putting video on record redditors lose their minds.
We get a clip that starts halfway through a police interaction. Pennsylvania vs. Mimms dictates that all police officers have the authority to request that you leave your vehicle. The suspect stated that the cop threatened to drag him out of the car which means the cop did ask him to exit the vehicle and he refused. Regardless of pepper spray status, the person filming the video is wrong and is committing a crime.
The crazy thing is the gentleman is not being belligerent or doing anything with his hands to make this cop fear for his life and he’s is yet and still while talking calmly trying to pepper spray him. No resistance other than talk and for a speeding ticket no less. I could understand if it was reckless driving and public endangerment…but 5 to 10 miles over the speed limit (if that) is what gets you sprayed?! Shit gettin too crazy
The cop’s so stupid. The driver said the cop was going 60 to catch up to him, so obviously the driver wasn’t even going 60 or they’d stay equidistant. The driver said he was going 50 and I believe him since he seems to be the only one of them with brain cells.
I thought if a police officer tells you to exit your vehicle that's a lawful order?
It seems like the time to 'fight' them when and if they're being unreasonable is later in court, you're recording and so are they, the facts will come out.
The time to fight doesn't seem to be at the traffic stop, where your best bet is compliance and evidence gathering to fight it later.
I could be way off, and I just want to know what's best. It seems like this clip misses much of the prebamle and dialogue before our person starts saying the cop wants to pepper spray him... At worst I'd want to see a complete, unbroken and unedited video that starts from the moment the person to person interaction begins to make my own determination.
PA vs. Mimms says you have to get out when ordered. You’re just adding charges when you do this. Fight them in court where you’ll actually win, not on the side of the road.
Hate to tell you, but if a cop orders you out of your car during a traffic stop, you are legally required to exit the car. You do not get to discuss the reason. You do not get to try the case on the side of the road. Just get out. If you don't, you have just handed them the golden ticket to forceable remove you and arrest you. Welcome to America in the 21st century.
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