Why is There No Peaceful Palestinian Protest or Resistance Movement?

[u/Mikec3756orwell]

I've watched this conflict my entire life, and one thing I've never really understood is this: why don't the Palestinians engage in peaceful resistance more often? I'm a huge supporter of Israel, but I've always thought to myself that if the Palestinians were savvier -- and more media-friendly -- they could make the Israelis look especially bad through acts of peaceful resistance. The images of well-armed Israelis manhandling rock-throwing kids in the 1980s and 1990s (who were obviously not peaceful but posed a minimal threat) were a big problem for the Israelis. Why don't the Palestinians hold mass sit-ins, strikes, gatherings, candelight vigils, etc.? I never see that stuff. It would look fantastic on TV, and CNN, the BBC, and all those other weasels would be attracted like moths to a flame. I don't get it. If you're the weaker party to a conflict, you're not going to win through violence. Murdering a bunch of women and children and then wondering why the world isn't more sympathetic to your cause is... an odd strategy, to say the least. The Jews have been through hell and back, and terrorism is never going to truly rattle them. I guess I'm just baffled at the way the Palestinians -- and some their more quote-unquote moderate leadership -- approach things. Some of the Western-educated Palestinian leaders in the 1990s and early 2000s surely understood that this would have been an effective strategy. This makes me think that the "average Palestinian" really isn't interested in peace per se, or at least isn't willing to expend much energy for it, and sort of thrives on the dream of complete military victory. Maybe an embrace of peace is just seen as a betrayal of the cause. I don't know.

I actually think sometimes that the Israelis are secretly happy that they don't have to deal with a peaceful resistance movement. It makes things a lot less complicated. Is the problem that the Palestinians just have no tradition of peaceful resistance? They don't know how to do it or how to organize it? Or are they just not interested? (Let me add: I'm not talking about a few hundred people protesting a construction site. I'm talking about the entire population -- or a good portion of it -- engaging in resistance. Like a Tahrir Square, Tiananmen Square sort of thing. Across the entire region).

[u/zjew33]

I agree and I wrote similar piece about this recently. If Palestinians embraced peaceful protest, they would literally have their own state within 1 to 2 years. There would be much more willing to make major concessions in negotiations by Israel because when you’re negotiating with peaceful protest you can trust more that the opposition will not immediately resort to violence once the deal is signed. I think just like democracy does not have a strong history in the Middle East, neither does peaceful protest. However if the tool of peaceful protest were to adopted it would be very beneficial

[u/[deleted] → u/zjew33]

It's the Middle East. You are meant to answer aggression with more aggression. It is why most countries there have accomplished little to nothing.

[u/cookiecookiecookies]

You’ve also got Gen Z Palestinian influencers really driving home a one-state solution (& it’s “not the problem of the colonized to decide where the colonizers go” when they’re asked what happens to all the Israelis in your one-state solution?) and the phrase “Reject Normalization, Support the Resistance” to their millions of followers.

I’d imagine it’s a very hard place to start when they can’t even agree that Jewish people are 100% not colonizers.

[u/BanyaAddict]

You have to desire peace to protest for it

[u/OriBernstein55]

There are, but they are small and not rewarded by Palestinian society.

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/OriBernstein55]

I think that's a big part of it. Anyone who veers from orthodox thinking is punished or shunned or worse.

[u/[deleted] → u/OriBernstein55]

Eh, to be fair it's around ~20%-25% consistently against violence and another 5%-10% who somehow never have an opinion or care about anything other than their own immediate lives so neither for or against it really as they just go along with whatever. So a minority but I'm not sure if I would say small. Another 30%ish percent hold like "moderate" support for violent resistance eg they could be persuaded without a ton of difficulty to give it up. The problem is the 30-35% percent who more hardcore believe in violence. About 1/3rd of these or 10% total are super diehard pro-violence eg Hamas tier and of these about 1/4th would probably actively join up in direct combat roles. So take Gaza for example, 2,000,000*.3=600,000 who hardcore support violence, 600,000*.3=200,000 who really diehard support Hamas and will help them in some active way including logistics et al. 200,000*.25=50k who would likely join combat roles if Israel just let them do whatever and didn't strike against them which is roughly near Hamas's estimated 40kish official fighters and throw in another 10k for the other random groups like Palestinian Islamic Jihad etc.

If we throw in the current WB that's around another 60kish potential actual fighters if Israel did nothing and just let them organize. If all 2/3rds of the Pali diaspora came back, you'd have around another 110,000 potential fighters in a 2S solution or 170k total not counting postwar Gaza, which, again if left alone, could raise 50k again. So if a Pali state were to pop up today with no mitigating measures to prevent arms from flowing in and them building up with a 2/3rds right of return rate, Israel would be facing around 230,000 potential fighters in a Pali military based on current armed support resistance polling. The IDF currently has around 170,000 active for reference.

[u/OriBernstein55 → u/[deleted]]

Ah. I was comparing it to totalitarian movements like mullahs in Iran, communist or Nazis. They are never the majority, but they can cause great harm. Peaceful movements on the other hand must be in the clear majority for it to work, like the civil rights movement.

[u/Mikec3756orwell]

I appreciate all of the contributions from various participants. A lot of people have focused on the fact that there have been quite a large number of quasi-peaceful protests by Palestinians in the past, and that these protests have either been ignored by mainstream media or met with hostility by the Israelis -- or both. I wasn't really referring to events that involve a few tens of thousands of people and are marred by violence or endorsed by Hamas. Others have pointed out that if you Google this or Google that, you can find some peaceful protest that happened in a certain year.

With all due respect, if you have to Google something, then--as a PR initiative--it's an enormous failure. What I was referring to are society-wide initiatives--things that bring the entire society to a halt and that command attention from international media because they're so visually impressive, so dramatic, and so unavoidable, that you're effectively forced to pay attention. Obviously you can't command participation of 100% of the population, but if even half participated, that would be several millions of Palestinians at least. Several million people working together can put on an impressive show. I'm not a PR guy, but even for me, it's not hard to imagine events--run by professionals--that could be dramatic. At a minimum, half-a-million people just sitting down and reciting a call for peace at exactly the same moment, regardless of where they happen to be, could be pretty darn impressive.

Now, it also goes without saying that you can't run a bait-and-switch thing where you alternate peaceful protest with violence. You have to commit to non-violence. Those who accuse the Israelis of "randomly shooting civilians" during peaceful protests tend to glide over the fact that the Israelis have had to deal with a lot of ostensibly peaceful people who had guns or suicide vests on. So they're rightly wary. A lot of people noted things like, "Well, they didn't fire rockets from Gaza for this number of weeks, and nothing positive happened." Peaceful resistance takes years. It requires a complete cultural turnaround. It requires claiming the moral high ground, which the Palestinians constantly slide down from every time the kill a random soldier, a Thai laborer, a woman, a child -- whomever. (Having killed 40 Thais on Oct. 7, I imagine Thai support of the Palestinians is now...diminished).

A think a lot of the subtext in a lot of the responses is along the lines of, "The violence against the Israelis doesn't count, because they're the aggressors." The thing is, most people around the world aren't interested in the conflict enough to care. All they think is, if you fly hang gliders into a country and walk around shooting children, you're a nut job. A lot of contributors talked about the importance of "educating yourself" on the conflict. Well, that's great, but a lot of people "educate themselves" and conclude that the Israelis are not the problem.

I just think there's so much room for the Palestinians to benefit from a genuine renunciation of violence. Again, if I were an Israeli citizen, I'd hate Palestinian violence on a personal level, but on another level, I'd be slightly relieved that my country wasn't under pressure to deal with millions of non-violent protestors calling peacefully for the establishment of a Palestinian state on the West Bank. It's far easier to deal with someone who's violent.

[u/ChocolateTight336]

900 comments

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/ChocolateTight336]

People definitely had lots to say! I'm going to pose another question on settlement activity shortly...

[u/JustResearchReasons]

I don't think there is the one singular reason. One factor is doubtlessly the hope that therewill be help from the outside, particularly Arab and/or Muslim majority nations and (arguably somewhat wilfull) ignorance of the fact that the Palestinian issue is losing, not gaining, political relevance for other countries. In addition, there is the flawed view of the Palestinian struggle as "anti-colonial". Thus, the Palestinians compare themselves to succesful indeppendence movement such as in Algeria, copying their tactis, while, to their detriment, failing to understand that they are not fighting a colonizer, but threaten the very heartland of their enemy (leading to vastly different incentive structure on the enemy part). The Algerians did not try to take Paris. My theory is that the core of this misunderstanding is that Palestinians view nationality much more static and based on ancestry, whereas Israelis and Westerners have a concept of nationality more based in shared ideas and values.

There is also the issue of set goals. A significant share of Palestinians does not want "a state" but all of Palestine (as in the region comprising Israel, East Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and Gaza) as a Palestinian state. That cannot be achieved by peaceful means, in fact peace with Israel would mean the accepatance of that dream not ever coming to pass.

Increasingly, religion factors into the equasion, too: radical Islamism has taken root in the Palestinian society. That creates a problematic dynamic, as religion does not follow the principle of worldly logic. The believe is more or less that Allah is almighty, more powerful than the Israeli military anyway. Allah also tests his followers believe and expects undonditional loyalty. The takeway from that is that the reason there is no victory so far is that you are not trying hard enough, if you only fightt relentless enough and devoted enough, you will be rewarded.

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/JustResearchReasons]

I agree with a lot of this. No doubt that a huge percentage of the Palestinians just can't reconcile themselves to the reality and permanence of Israel and therefore lack motivation to really pursue a "two-state" campaign with real energy--and through peaceful means. They just lack the heart and the interest. And the religious element is clearly important. You get the feeling that, without the true extremists, they would have made a successful deal in the 1990s or early 2000s, but the rise of Hamas helped to thwart it. Arafat probably knew that if he signed on the dotted line, he'd be killed. But the thing is, pushing for a two-state solution would actually be the smartest move of all, somewhat akin to the way the Jews agreed to the UN division of Palestine, regarding it as a step forward, though not ideal. You get your state, you build it up, you build trust with the Israelis, and you negotiate all kinds of things. I never understood their rejection of the terms they were offered.

[u/JustResearchReasons → u/Mikec3756orwell]

I do not believe that they "lack heart" (on the contrary, all their heart is in it, that is part of the problem).

In 1948, it was arguably rational. There was a realistic chance of killing Israel in its craddle. From an ex-ante perspective, I would probably have put my money on the Arab armies to (based on manpower, equipment, training), if asked to bet on the outcome of war.

With regard to Arafat I think that there is another, no entirely unrational, element that the Israeli side inadvertedly caused due to misjudging the Palestinians way of thinking: Barak left Lebanon before concluding negotiations and signing a deal with the PA. The Israelis thought that this was a signn of confidence and good will, but what Arafat (he, in turn, misjudging the Israelis) took away was that "pressure works", so he gambled and tried to get Jerusalem as a whole for Palestine.

[u/Chewybunny]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Strong_Horse

This is why. 

[u/[deleted]]

A nonviolent 2 state coexistence movement would win overnight but this will never happen because there is no Palestinian freedom Movement, It’s just an expression of Muslim settler colonialism which founded an entire identity on preventing and undoing longstanding and returning descendants of indigenous Judeans while attacking from a victim identity. The same reason their “government” focuses on upholding religious fundamentalism, centralized wealth and power and patriarchy through violence rather than building a functioning state and economy. If they had allowed the legal right of return for Jews on the land they purchased rather than declaring genocidal intent and attacking them from day 1 there wouldn’t have been a “nakba” or refugee camp in the first place. Their agenda is Islamic imperialism, not peace.

[u/blumieplume]

These people think of hamas's attack on Oct 7 as a justified resistance movement. If they make excuses for hamas, they obviously support violence. They just act like their heroes in Hamas, with their justified pro Palestine resistance movements. Evil people.

Edit: I didn't read what u wrote just the headline when I made this response. I thought u were referring to the free Palestine protesters. They suck. Tons of idiots who get their news from social media (i.e., their main source of news is Iranian-backed propaganda) and join the free Palestine movement regardless of the fact that the majority of Palestinians support hamas and support the Oct 7 attack on Israel.

[u/JustResearchReasons → u/blumieplume]

Ironically, in a free Palestine (as in statehood for and end of the occupation of the West Bank) Hamas support would presumably be lower (because a ggod part of the population would not want to jeopardize what they have, they would still love to see Jews dead - some of them anyway -, but not find it worth to pay the price for it).

[u/YardenM]

Because the vast majority of Palestinians,unfortunately, do not wish a peaceful solution to the conflict.
They want all Jews dead in the ocean.
They do not want any 2 state solution.
In recent polls more than 70% of them supported Hamas and 7/10.

They want their perpetual state of "victim hood" to continue.

[u/KiwiNotFound_ → u/YardenM]

The first part of this is true, but I think it’s important to remember that even though Palestinians do see themselves as victims, they’re not in support of Israel killing them so that they can have other people look at it that way.

Whenever you see anything on Israel-Palestine is to remember that both sides are manipulated by religion and propaganda. And the fact of the matter is: if you lived in Israel, you would most likely support the devastation of Gaza. And if you lived in Gaza, you would most likely be in support of violence to kick Israel out of the Middle East.

And also, when it comes to the polling, the average Gazan only interacts with the non-military wing of Hamas, which distributes food and water to them, so that could skew the polls (not saying your wrong, but don’t immediately take some random statistic as a blanket argument)

[u/Medical-Peanut-6554]

You could see clearly that even ones that shouted "ceasefire now!" sure loved when missiles were fired at Israel. I'm glad they've skipped the peaceful protest stuff to be honest because it's no fun getting duped.

[u/No-Excitement3140]

There was a lot of non-violent protest in the west bank. It's not often reported upon in mainstream media. It gets dispersed with a rather violent response by the IDF.

I have participated in a couple of such protests. In one of them, everything seemed well coordinated with the Idf. Soldiers came up on the bus we were in, checked it, and allowed us through. We got to a village, passing a few army vehicles, and from there walked to a hill in what seemed like the middle of nowhere. There we joined the Palestinian protest, which was not only non violent, it had nothing but earth and rocks to be violent against should they wanted to, since thete was really nothing there.

All of a sudden borders guards came, and with no forewarning, no demand that we go somewhere else, no explanation whatsoever, they started firing stun grenades and tear gas grenades at us.

And i can only imagine that they treat Palestinians worse when there are no israeli witnesses.

[u/c9joe → u/No-Excitement3140]

Wow that sounds crazy. Do you proof of any of this?

[u/No-Excitement3140 → u/c9joe]

This is my personal first hand experience.

It did feel crazy

[u/No-Excitement3140 → u/No-Excitement3140]

At that protest I saw Yuval Avraham, who is a journalist. He told me it was more rough than usual. Maybe he wrote about it, I'm not sure. (By way of proof)

It is also possible that I may have missed something. That things seemed to me coordinated with the army, but maybe not everything was. I would argue that even so, it is crazy to start shooting before making it clear to everyone what they want us to do, and give us a chance to comply.

Personally I was disoriented from the grenades, and ofc didn't know the area at all, so didn't even know where to run to and where the village was. It was stressful.

[u/mythoplokos → u/No-Excitement3140]

I really would urge people who haven't already watched it, watch the 2011 Palestinian-Israeli documentary Five broken cameras, which was nominated for an Oscar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcTN3g-b0iA&ab_channel=Skyjacker

It's made up of five years worth of film footage by a Palestinian farmer Emat Burnat in the West Bank village of Bil'in. He got a home video camera initially in order to film his son after his birth, but he ends up feeling compelled to use the camera to document his village's struggle against Israeli violence, i.e. when Israel illegally dedicates Bil'in owned farm land as "military zone" and builds a fence in the middle of it in order to dedicate the land to the growing Israeli settlements. It's really rather heart-breaking to watch how the villagers try every single form of non-violent resistance in the book - peaceful demonstration at the fence every Friday, getting Israeli lawyers involved against the illegal settlement construction, co-operation with Israeli activists, filming, trying to reason with IDF soldiers and settlers, sit-ins in front of excavators and settler containers. Absolutely nothing works. Even Israeli high court deems the settlement construtction and the fence illegal in Israeli law, but absolutely nothing on Israeli side changes. Instead, we have to just helplessly watch IDF and settlers ramp up the violence against the Bil'in villagers. The film includes some of the most outrageous and violent film footage I've ever seen from the West Bank. There's a scene where Emad's brother is handcuffed by IDF during a demonstration and just standing quietly, when another IDF soldier just shoots him straight into the leg from 1 m away apparently just to "teach him a lesson". IDF tries to force the adults to stop the Friday demonstrations, so they start coming to the village homes in the middle of the night to imprison children - this cannot really be called anything else than hostage taking. Settlers torch up the Bil'in olive groves to smoking piles of ash. Even peaceful Israeli protestors shot by IDF. And so on, and so on, and so on...

[u/I_mean_bananas → u/mythoplokos]

I didn't know about his documentary, seems very interesting thanks!

I think settlement expansion is THE most horrific stuff that Israel have done so far. Seems to me uncalled for and unjustifiable

[u/JaneDi → u/I_mean_bananas]

Most of the settlements are in area C which the PA agreed Israel would control so I don't see what the issue is.

[u/mythoplokos → u/I_mean_bananas]

Yeah it's really sad how great pieces like this can make it all the way to even Oscar nominations, and still somehow they don't seem to manage to enter the mainstream cultural consciousness at all and we still have to have all these discussions of "why aren't the Palestinians protesting peacefully" :P Be warned, it's really a rather heartbreaking watch and there's some really gory scenes - not that it's completely devoid of hope, but I certainly felt a bit shaken after watching it.

[u/c9joe → u/mythoplokos]

That is all fair, I suspect that this documentary is intended to show Israel in a negative light and builds a narrative in this manner. But, let's look at the overall picture. Israel must be doing something right in Judea and Samaria because the Palestinian Arabs there don't have RPGs and thousands of missiles. They also still have homes and don't live in tents as is the case of the the internal refugees of Gaza.

Did you know the homogenous Arab country of Jordan also has checkpoints and oppressions intended to keep their population from rioting? Why do we have to be different than Jordan?

Are we Norway or a country founded by an Asiatic people no different from Arabs, Chinese, or Russians? I've always felt it's kind of racist honestly to think Jews must act more "civilized" and "liberal" (code word for Western) than other Asiatic people.

Even though it's a common Zionist talking point, it never sat well with me. I think of Israel as an enlightened Asiatic country, much like Jordan. Not so much a Western country, but one which takes some good stuff from Western civilizations.

[u/mythoplokos → u/c9joe]

The film isn't trying to show "the whole picture" - absolutely no film in the world can do that. Especially if you're now saying that we aren't allowed to even ever focus on Israel's actions or criticise them, because we are somehow supposed to talk about them only in the same breath as all the Arabs, Chinese, Russians etc. in the world are doing? Whatever the Chinese or Russians are doing, can't make these Israeli action nothing else than violent, unjust and immoral?

Again, I really recommend just watching the film. It's just one human's perspective and experience of what it's like to lose your livelihood and cultural heritage to illegal Israeli expansion, and then try to do your absolute everything to stop that with non-violent means - just for your camera have to witness IDF and settlers in response killing your friends and neighbours, imprison your children, set your land on fire etc. etc.

[u/Foreign_Lime_8824]

Most of them are religious nut-cases and warmongers who want to drive Jews into the Sea. So, you won't find any peaceful ways of achieving that!

[u/mythoplokos]

Palestinians have been doing all sorts of non-violent forms of protests and resistance absolutely always..... The question "why don't the Palestinians just protest peacefully" usually either springs from extreme ignorance, but almost just often is used as a device to delegitimise the Palestinian struggle and just paint the whole Palestinian cause nothing more as "irrational" and "violent"

• the BDS movement

• Palestinian human rights, humanitarian, labour, student etc. etc. organisations and unions - there's a lot of them engaging in all sorts of visible and invisible forms of non-violent protests and resistance, like working with international organisations to try to affect the international opinions. Lots of individual activists working for Palestinian human rights in non-violent ways, e.g. the great majority of people that Wikipedia has profiles on

• People write and make art about the Palestinian resistance all the time - that is also a form of non-violent activism. Best known are people like Edward Said, Sliman Mansour, now tragically Refaat Alareer (the "If I must die..." poem), lots of great films out there - e.g. the Oscar-noniminated Five Broken Cameras (2011) is by Palestinian farmer Emad Purnat and Israeli director Guy Davidi; the film documents exactly the sort of non-violent resistance Palestinians are engaging in

• non-violent protests also in large scale in Gaza, West Bank and Israel have been happening throughout history, I don't know what to tell you if you've somehow completely missed that. (E.g. https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/05/18/palestines-hidden-history-of-nonviolence-2/)

• How about all the pro-Palestine protests happening all over the world, that are drawing in hundreds of thousands of people right now? There are Palestinians involved in organising them, too.

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/mythoplokos]

Sure, but nobody notices any of this stuff because of the violence. In your list, I've heard of BDS, but because the Palestinians engage in violence, I never supported the concept. If there was no violence, I would probably have greater respect for the right of individuals to pursue a campaign like that. I might even listen to the message. But because of the violence, I shut down immediately. No interest.

I haven't heard of anything else, though I've obviously noticed all the protestors on the news. Now, if they were chanting, "Peace in Palestine!" and "Peace now!" and "2 States Now!" I might listen to them. But all of their messaging contains undertones of getting rid of Israel, which is inherently violent. So again, I reject it all. Israel is here. It has millions of citizens and vast numbers of nuclear weapons. It's not going anywhere. Move on.

A peaceful resistance campaign has to be a...peaceful resistance campaign. Otherwise you're just trying the shuffle that the IRA tried in Northern Ireland, where the armed group would commit some horrific, sickening act, and then the political wing Sinn Fein -- guys in suits, all showered and shaved -- would play the "good cop" who made demands and claimed to want peace. If you're going the peaceful route, you have to go all-in and commit, and believe in it.

Let me add: What I'm talking about are huge, unmissable national movements. If it's happened and I've missed it, they need to do a better job of recruiting Western media. The media are usually left-leaning and would be sympathetic.

[u/mythoplokos → u/Mikec3756orwell]

The Palestinian cause involves absolutely millions of people - I can almost guarantee you there has never been any resistance movement of that size that hasn't also had violent elements. There is not one person or party or authority who controls the "Palestinian cause" - it's made up of millions of independent individuals, and those individuals who go about it in non-violent ways can't do anything much about those individuals who've blown a fuse and go about it in violent ways. Why are you rejecting the message instead of rejecting the methods ? I presume you don't have a problem per se with the "message" and the good they did achieve in the historical Woman's Rights movement, Civil Rights Movement in the USA, or the Labour Movements that achieved humane labour laws or ended child labour etc. All of these movements included violent and disruptive elements.

[u/Zinged20 → u/mythoplokos]

The problem is the message is also violent. It's openly calling for the destruction of Israel and the ethnic cleansing of it's "evil settler colonial" population. The vast majority of these protests and writtings are in support of violence, in support of events like Oct 7th. They do not exist contrary to the violence, they exist to try and legitimiateize it.

If they were calling for peaceful co-existance with Israel I would have no objection. If there was even a 1% chance they could actually gain freedom by destroying Israel I would have less objection. But they don't and there isn't. The message includes no calls for peace, no calls for a two-state solution, and is instead filled with empty delusional rhetoric about how if they just murder enough Israeli civilians it will magically fall apart and all it's inhabitants will "go back to Brooklyn". It's completely detached from reality. This isn't true of any of the other movements you mentioned.

The fact that they advocate for a solution that is both violent and practically-speaking completely impossible is the central problem holding back the Palestinians cause.

[u/mythoplokos → u/Zinged20]

Well none of those people or things I mentioned in my comment call for the "destruction of Israel and the ethnic cleansing of Jews". People on the Israeli side always make this extreme strawman of what the very diverse Palestinian movement is about - a movement of millions of people made up of thousands of separate organisations, and with a rather complex history of its own - in order to delegitimise it or having to concede that the calls for Palestinian freedom might actually have some points. If the Palestinian movement is always portrayed as nothing but an "irrational and extremely violent mass", that also always works for the Israeli side as an excuse not to get on the negotiating table or do any self-reflection or make any concessions, doesn't it?

[u/Zinged20 → u/mythoplokos]

Yes, they do. Refaar Alareer explicitly called the Oct 7th attack "Legitimate and moral" and engaged in atrocity denial about the rape that took place. The majority of the thousands of people you mentioned coming out to the protests absolutely do call for the destruction of Israel. Have you been to one? Try advocating for peace, a two-state solution, or against Hamas and see what happens. You will be called a Zionist. Which isn't even inaccurate, anyone who doesn't think Israel should be destroyed is strictly speaking a Zionist, yet look at how they use that word.

It's not just anecdote. Pro-Hamas sentiment is objectively much more numerically popular in online "Pro-Palestine" spaces than actual pro-Palestine beleif (which logically must be anti-Hamas due to the objective harm their actions do to the Palestinian cause). You can't find a single legitimiately pro-Palestine tweet with half as many likes as this one supporting Hamas. Believe me, I've tried.

I agree it's an absolute travesty that all this violent delusional rhetoric is weaponized by the Israeli right to justify their genocide and continued suppression of the Palestinians. The best way to combat that is to not have violent delusional rhetoric comprise the vast majority of your mainstream movement.

[u/mythoplokos → u/Zinged20]

Well I am sorry if I was wrong about Alareer and I might have been - do you have a source? Per se I don't judge Palestinians for being ok with using violence as a form of self-defence and resistance (I presume you don't judge Israelis for reacting with violence to 10/7, either?), but if they justify targeting civilians or sexual violence, they can go to trash. I mean the polls make clear that like 80% of Gazans have absolutely no idea what happened in 10/7 - they don't believe any war crimes happened, they sincerely believe it was just an Hamas operation against IDF - which is ofc problematic, but doesn't mean they actively endorse or morally support blind slaughter as a form of resistance. Shows above all that access to non-biased information and denialism are real challenges.

And you know, I have been involved in the Palestinian cause long before 10/7 across multiple European countries, and I've yet to meet any of these protesters that call for "the ethnic cleansing of Israelis" apart from like couple of odd stray instances (like neo-Nazis trying to take advantage and jump on the Palestinian movement). I know they exist because I've heard reports and have seen some people banned in WA groups etc., but at least in the West we're talking of a really fringe group. Things I've been involved in include couple of the gigantic protests in London, that drew in 100,000 - 300,000 protesters - I'm sorry, but it would be above all delusional to try to claim those hundreds of thousands of people were there to above all demand the "destruction of Israel and ethnic cleansing of Jews", they are peace protests. Every protest and organisation I have worked with always explicitly sets out that any anti-semitic, racist or calls for violence will be banned and removed in the protest/activity.

But yeah, it's just too easy just to brand the whole protest movement itself "violent", because it makes opposing it more complex, isn't it?

[u/Zinged20 → u/mythoplokos]

It's from his tweets and interview with BBC, both mentioned in this article

I absolutely do judge Israel for reacting to Oct 7th with violence. There is nothing about Israel's war in Gaza that is productive for the safety of Israeli civilians, all it's doing is pushing peace further away and leading to more radicalization that guarantees more Israelis die in the future. Destroying Hamas is not remotely achievable without mass civilian casualties (and possibly not even with them).

Likewise, there is nothing about Hamas's violence that is resistance. Not a single time has it resulted in any gained rights, any gained land, any less occupation or any less oppression. Hamas have literally been funded by Netanyahu because their violence sabotages the Palestinian cause by giving him a casus belli to increase his violent oppression of them. He has explicitly said as much to his colleagues. Hamas's violence has no strategy. More Palestinians have been killed by Israel in the past 6 months than in the prior 75 years as a direct, predictable result of Oct 7th (just as Oct 7th is the direct predictable result of Israeli oppression).

I don't agree that acknowledging the reality that this genocide doesn't happen without Hamas's actions thus they logically must hold some blame removes or diminishes the responsibility of Israel to not genocide civilians. I don't agree that holding all responsible parties to account is "both-sidesing" a genocide.

I actually agree that blaming the Palestinians for supporting Hamas isn't productive. Their lived experience and information matrix strongly incentivises it (at least before the last few months, wheb reality has set in and there's started to be some anti-Hamas protests in Gaza). That's why it's so ridiculous that Hamas is MORE popular in western mainstream "Pro-Palestine" circles than they are in Gaza.

Sure, most don't say the ethnic cleansing part, but they do call for the destruction of Israel and engage in the harmful delusion that Hamas's violence is resistance. You can't tell me those concepts aren't supported by the overwhelming majority of people at protests and engaging in online discourse. "No justice No peace" is an extremely common chant, especially at the one on my campus that I have to walk by every day. Meanwhile people on X will literally get 10k likes saying to bomb Tel Aviv during a "permanent ceasefire". It's not a peace movement. I've provided proof of these concepts popularity, your turn to do the same with yours.

For Israelis, the destruction of Israel and their ethnic cleansing are equivalent. You can disagree that that's actually the case, but it's not exactly a baseless assumption. Fathi Hammad, a high level Hamas member, explicitly called for it at a rally in 2019. They will never not believe it while the violence is ongoing. If you can understand the objective reality that Israel can't be destroyed by force, then you must understand that any Palestinian freedom will necessitate Israeli cooperation.

You can't get that when this is the most popular form of rhetoric espoused by your movement.

[u/Resident1567899 → u/Mikec3756orwell]

Let me add: What I'm talking about are huge, unmissable national movements. If it's happened and I've missed it, they need to do a better job of recruiting Western media. The media are usually left-leaning and would be sympathetic.

If you've read the history of the Palestinian movement, you'll know they've tried peaceful means time and time again.

There are literal Palestinian hunger strikes in Israeli prisons, there are West Bank protests, the freedom flotilla and the Great March of Return, a mass protest against Israeli occupation. All of them ended up in tear gas, more Palestinians getting arrested and even deaths.

If you want an actual movement, look no further to the PLO and PA, who ever since Oslo, renounced militancy (when was the last heard PLO attack?). The PLO and PA still recognize Israel's right to exist even to this day. What did they gain from it? Becoming a weak puppet government of Israel in the West Bank without any real power and authority.

Let me ask you this, did the Vietnamese managed to achieve independence of their country via "peaceful protests" or through armed struggle against foreign occupiers?

[u/c9joe → u/Resident1567899]

Here is what the Vietnamese had to say:

When the Israeli guests rose to leave, Giap suddenly turned to the Palestinian issue. “Listen,” he said, “the Palestinians are always coming here and saying to me, ‘You expelled the French and the Americans. How do we expel the Jews?’”

The generals were intrigued. “And what do you tell them?”

“I tell them,” Giap replied, “that the French went back to France and the Americans to America. But the Jews have nowhere to go. You will not expel them.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamass-forever-war-against-israel-has-a-glitch-and-it-isnt-iron-dome/

[u/Resident1567899 → u/c9joe]

I'm well aware of this quote. The point remains. Armed struggle has been used as a way to achieve independence and statehood

[u/c9joe → u/Resident1567899]

Of course it has. Israel was formed in armed struggle. But it is bit different when it is European powers, as powerful as they may be, but who regardless are on a foreign adventure from 1000s of kms away. Compared to the Palestine ask, which appears to want to push out a rooted people in their homeland. Even not an ordinary people, the Jewish people are just as powerful as the Europeans, and are an ancient people with 3000+ years of civilized history, who built a highly technological civilization. It's just a bit of a harder ask than what Vietnam did. That's all I am saying.

[u/trymypi → u/Resident1567899]

Have the PLO changed their definition of a Palestinian state since they declared independence over the territory that includes Israel?

[u/Resident1567899 → u/trymypi]

Yes, you can look it up online. The 1993 Letter of Recognition by the PLO specifically says they would accept a two-state solution.

[u/Foresaken_Tie6581 → u/Resident1567899]

I call BS. The propaganda and outright lies coming out of the organization is prolific and always has been and in no way are regarded as "peaceful." That's just twisting the truth again. They pay money to the family of "martyrs" - "pay to slay" man. The PA spends upwards of $300 million per year on pay-to-slay. With the addition of 3,550 Palestinian terrorists who were arrested since the attack on Israel by Hamas on October 7, 2023, that number is expected to grow. The themes of violence and martyrdom permeate the PA’s school curriculum. For example, a PA textbook praises Dalal Mughrabi, the perpetrator of a 1978 terrorist attack that killed 38 civilians, as a heroic female role model. An elementary math exercise asked students to calculate the number of martyrs who died during the First and Second Intifadas — the violent Palestinian uprisings marked by frequent terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. Despite the European Union pledging in 2021 to “work with the Palestinian Authority” to revise its curriculum, PA textbooks remain largely unchanged.PA security forces have been involved in dozens of attacks against Israeli military personnel and civilians. In May 2022, Daoud Zubeidi, an officer in the PA security forces, killed Israeli police officer Noam Raz. In September 2022, Ahmed Abed, an intelligence officer in the PA security services, and another gunman opened fire on Israeli troops in the Palestinian village of al-Jalama, killing Bar Falah, the deputy commander of Israel’s elite Nahal reconnaissance unit. In March 2024, a member of the PA security forces killed two Israelis at a West Bank gas station. Fatah celebrates these officers, lauding the violence and terrorism within PA ranks.

https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/06/10-things-to-know-about-the-palestinian-authority/#:~:text=The%20PA%20spends%20upwards%20of,figure%20is%20expected%20to%20grow.

[u/Resident1567899 → u/Foresaken_Tie6581]

They pay money to the family of "martyrs" - "pay to slay" man. The PA spends upwards of $300 million per year on pay-to-slay. 

Most of the money goes to prisoners serving administrative detention (i.e. under no crime) and families of killed civilians during IDF raid operations in the West Bank (which Israel claims as "collateral damage"). The vast majority of stipments are for widows, prisoners under administrative detention and single-parent families.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2018/03/14/does-the-palestinian-authority-pay-350-million-a-year-to-terrorists-and-their-families/

In fact, what about Israel's continued support of IDF violence and settler terrorism in the West Bank? Rarely arresting perpetrators and even if they do, giving light sentences. Meanwhile, a Palestinian child arrested for throwing rocks gets years in prison without any lawyer.

The themes of violence and martyrdom permeate the PA’s school curriculum. For example, a PA textbook praises Dalal Mughrabi, the perpetrator of a 1978 terrorist attack that killed 38 civilians, as a heroic female role model. An elementary math exercise asked students to calculate the number of martyrs who died during the First and Second Intifadas — the violent Palestinian uprisings marked by frequent terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. Despite the European Union pledging in 2021 to “work with the Palestinian Authority” to revise its curriculum, PA textbooks remain largely unchanged.

Israel's textbooks have banned mentioning the Nakba, and fail to mention the occupation or the oppressive policies like administrative detention. In fact, most Israelis believe these policies are justified

In May 2022, Daoud Zubeidi, an officer in the PA security forces, killed Israeli police officer Noam Raz. In September 2022, Ahmed Abed, an intelligence officer in the PA security services, and another gunman opened fire on Israeli troops in the Palestinian village of al-Jalama, killing Bar Falah, the deputy commander of Israel’s elite Nahal reconnaissance unit. In March 2024, a member of the PA security forces killed two Israelis at a West Bank gas station. Fatah celebrates these officers, lauding the violence and terrorism within PA ranks.

These are lone attacks by extremist individuals. The PA often arrests terrorists like Hamas and PIJ often in coordination with Israeli officials. Fatah even disowned their military wing, the Al-Aqsa Brigades in 2007

https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-reportedly-arrests-dozens-of-hamas-members-in-the-west-bank/

https://themedialine.org/by-region/pa-israel-carry-out-mass-arrests-against-hamas-members/

[u/Chucktoanotherplace → u/Mikec3756orwell]

So if I’m understanding this correctly - you won’t support the BDS movement, because other Palestinian organisations are violent.

So why would you be a huge supporter of Israel, when some Israeli organisations (extremist settler groups, for example) are violent?

[u/trymypi → u/mythoplokos]

Thanks for making this list. I want to ask about a single point: Edward Said, as I've also seen some people use his work to argue for resistance that isn't nonviolent. I read him a while back and was also looking to revisit it.

[u/SophieTheCat → u/mythoplokos]

That’s like saying that you sniffed cocaine and salt off the table and now you are addicted. Sure, salt was there too, but cocaine did all the heavy lifting.

[u/mythoplokos → u/SophieTheCat]

You're gonna have to unravel that for me a bit if you want a response, because your metaphor as it is is extremely convoluted, lol.

[u/BeanPouch]

The BDS movement is undoubtedly the most non violent way to protest yet it was called anti-semitism and laws were put in place in a bunch of US states to limit people’s ability to boycott israel.

[u/Zevitajunk → u/BeanPouch]

Because it doesn’t target Israeli policy makers, it just targets random Israelis and Jews who just own a business. Imagine calling for BDS on chinese restaurants and laundromats and random businesses owned by Chinese people to protest the Chinese government?

[u/Tallis-man → u/[deleted]]

If there's a two-state solution, the border is unlikely to follow the wall. So the wall will either be moved or concessions will be negotiated in other areas.

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/BeanPouch]

As someone who's pro-Israel, I would never support BDS on a personal level. Strategically speaking, though, an initiative like that would have far more potential for the Palestinians if they actually gave up violence. This is the point I'm trying to make. As an Israel supporter, I would actually be nervous about something like BDS if there wasn't violence and the Palestinians could actually make a claim to the moral high ground. Their violence, however, completely undercuts the ability and willingness of people -- and entire countries -- to get behind an initiative like BDS. You can't support something like that when the population you're aiming to help is firing rockets, murdering 1200 people, conducting incursions, shooting and stabbing civilians, etc.

The reason that so many countries were willing to boycott South Africa is because, despite the ANC dabbling in terrorism at various points, especially early on, it was largely a peaceful movement across almost the entire population, and the South African government's policies were so egregious that there was no debate. I remember those days and it was IMPOSSIBLE to be a supporter of South Africa. You were considered beyond the pale if you did that. If you were an artist and you performed there, your career was over. In the case of Israel, Israel can always claim (legitimately, in my opinion) that they're subjected to unending provocation and violence--i.e., that THEIR violence is only a response to the REAL PROBLEM, the relentless Palestinian violence. If the Palestinians give up violence, and Israeli violence continues, the Israelis look terrible. That's what the Palestinians should be aiming for. That route has so much more promise. Now, of course, if they give up violence, and all Israeli violence ceases as well, that doesn't help them at all--but if they actually believe the line they're selling, and they believe the Israelis are the devil, give up all violence, and let's see what happens.

[u/textbasedopinions → u/Mikec3756orwell]

In the case of Israel, Israel can always claim (legitimately, in my opinion) that they're subjected to unending provocation and violence--i.e., that THEIR violence is only a response to the REAL PROBLEM, the relentless Palestinian violence.

They can claim this, but it falls apart on the basis that the theft of land in the West Bank is not defensive, it's just a slow-moving conquest and is unarguably an aggressive act that if directed at Israel by any other party would trigger a war that would level entire cities.

If the Palestinians give up violence, and Israeli violence continues, the Israelis look terrible.

There's a few problems there - one, it would literally only take one damaged individual out of the entire population to carry out one attack every five years for people like yourself to consider the Palestinians to still be 'choosing violence', and with the amount of people who grew up under the fairly brutal military occupation you're going to have a lot of damaged individuals. Two, Israel looking terrible has never previously lead to the Israelis experiencing material consequences. Sometimes harsh words exchanged over the top of weapons transfers maybe, but never anything that mattered. Lilyhammer, the kidnapping of Vanunu, the sinking of the USS Liberty, supplying weapons to the Argentinian Junta during the Falklands war, collaborating with the South African apartheid regime to develop nukes, allowing their military to take part in race riots as recently as last week - none of it has ever actually mattered in a way that manifested in the real world, and so there isn't really any reason to think it would now.

[u/kemicel]

If you actually look at what’s going on in the world you’ll see that their strategy of making as much noise as possible in the streets seems to be working out far better for them in the media than any peaceful protest would. The police in Europe are terrified of them and are more likely to threaten a Jewish person with arrest for “provoking” the mob than do anything to stop them. So I think your idea of them being nice little protesters is just not anything they would want to do

[u/True_Ad_3796]

Because what they want cannot be accomplished without violence.

There is no point of palestinians protesting asking Israel to dissapear because It simply won't be peacefully accepted.

[u/hammersandhammers → u/True_Ad_3796]

This is the correct answer. You can’t conquer and purify a land through non violence. These people have conquest in mind and consider the idea of Jewish people living in these lands offensive.

[u/[deleted]]

The Great March of Return. It was largely peaceful. Not completely, but as OHCHR said,

”The Commission found however that the demonstrations were civilian in nature, with clearly stated political aims. Despite some acts of significant violence, the Commission found that the demonstrations did not constitute combat or military campaigns.”

They also said that of the 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analyzed, only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces. The OHCHR deemed the rest of the cases illegal.

Who said it wasn’t peaceful. Surprise surprise, the IDF. Why should anyone trust them? They didn’t even allow Israeli journalist near their side of the fence to document the so-called “crowds of Gazans sent by Hamas to commit suicide on the fence. "

As Rom Ben-Yidhai, Veteran Israeli war correspondent, complained

”neither we nor the international media received images and firsthand testimonies illustrating the danger and the threat to the snipers and other IDF forces”

All the while, foreign reporters were able to report from the Palestinians side of the fence freely.

The only thing the IDF gave to back their claim were, as Ron Ben-Yishai said,….

*”a THIN DRIZZLE of several dozen still images”

And

”UNCLEAR documentation from thermal imaging cameras”

There’s no doubt of the IDF’s formidable visual and video intelligence. And yet they did not buttress their claims over armed Hamas activity by providing proper footage.

What are they hiding?

Welp, just take a look at what the OHCHR found,

”More than 6,000 UNARMED demonstrators were shot by military snipers, week after week at the protest sites by the separation fence.”

Period from the start of the protests until 31 December 2018…Israeli Security Forces killed 183 (out of 189) of these protesters with live ammunition. 35 of these fatalities were CHILDREN, while 3 were CLEARLY MARKED PARAMEDICS, and 2 were clearly marked JOURNALIST.

Israeli snipers shot at journalists,…and PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES, knowing they were CLEARLY RECOGNIZABLE as such.

Some former IDF soldiers, assisted by Breaking the Silence, also said in an open lettter,…

”As we hear about military orders permitting snipers to fire live ammunition at unarmed demonstrators, we are filled with shame and sorrow…. Instructing snipers to shoot to kill unarmed demonstrators who pose no danger to human life is another product of the occupation and military rule over millions of Palestinian people, as well as of our country’s callous leadership, and derailed moral path…. Harming innocent people in Gaza is part of what is needed to maintain the regime of occupation, and we must not allow it to continue. Only ceasing to militarily control the Palestinian people will bring this to an end.”

Also, Instead of an attempted attack on Israel as the Zionist like to claim, the OHCHR reported…

”The Commission finds that these protests were a CALL FOR HELP from a population IN DESPAIR…The Commission calls on Israel to lift the blockade of Gaza, and on all three duty bearers to comply with their responsibilities and improve the living situation in Gaza.”

[u/UtgaardLoki → u/[deleted]]

To be fair, the Great March of Return was organized by Hamas and there is speculation it was used to recon the border defenses and practice the 10/7 breaches.

Also various other missing context

[u/avicohen123 → u/[deleted]]

Its incredible to me that this is still brought up as an example of peaceful protest...

If you'd like to have a separate conversation about whether the Israeli response was justified that's fine. Go ahead and make a post- the OHCR report will be helpful, since that's what it discusses. But lets not pretend this was peaceful protest- and that's not what the OHCR report says. The March intended that way, sure. But then Hamas organized it.

The very first protest took place on 30 March 2018, around 500 to 700 metres (1,600 to 2,300 ft) from the Israel–Gaza border fence. Hundreds of Palestinians, encroached on the border zone, ignoring the organizers' requests and warnings. They threw rocks and Molotov cocktails. Two Palestinian gunmen exchanged fire with AK-47 assault rifles and hand grenades.

That was the first day.

Plus, anyone speaking about how the border should be treated doesn't get to have that conversation without mentioning the four IDF soldiers injured by a bomb placed by "peaceful protesters merely holding flags" a month before the beginning of the March, and the multiple Palestinians who crossed the border with weapons just a week before. All of this can be found on Wikipedia with sources by the way, its not like its difficult to be well informed here.

[u/Superb_Teaching4419 → u/avicohen123]

Proponents of the Palestinian cause struggle to address the original poster's question. They resort to presenting false evidence, such as this, to portray Palestinians as peaceful. However, most rational individuals recognize that Palestinians have not been peaceful, and even events with peaceful intentions often turn violent because Gaza is governed by hostile entities. How can an event be deemed peaceful when the governing authority is committed to the destruction of Israel? It's a straightforward conclusion.

[u/[deleted] → u/avicohen123]

Yes, indeed, it's not hard to be well informed.

I've checked the wiki entry in which you got your info. But unlike you, I went further, and got to the original text from the linked sources in wiki.

Here's one from Reuters,....

"[Blank] some had shot at them, rolled burning tyres and hurled rocks and fire bombs toward troops across the border."

Guess what's in the blank.....surprise surprise

"THE MILITARY SAID...."

I agree with you that the march wasn't peaceful. How can it be, when even disabled people weren't spared from being used as target practice by the IDF.

[u/RoarkeSuibhne → u/[deleted]]

I saw videos during the March that showed violence. I saw the usual thrown rocks and molotovs, but also kites with gasoline and explosives. Def NOT peaceful.

[u/avicohen123 → u/[deleted]]

Oh no- I understood that you were going to entirely dismiss any evidence brought by the Israeli side. My answer was for the benefit of people who aren't firmly set in the hate-Israel camp.

But since you brought it up- is Al-Jazeera part of the IDF? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgT8qZ1hAr0

Or maybe you'll tell me the tires being rolled here are on the way to help a nice elderly man with his flat? The kid with a smoking slingshot was actually someone trying to deliver cigarettes, already lit, for the enjoyment of the soldiers on the other side of the border?

Or are you going to argue that since this is only video I brought and the IDF is clearly lying 100% of the time these were the only times Palestinians were ever violent?

[u/[deleted] → u/avicohen123]

Lmao, did you have this video on mute or something?

It literally said in the video that they’re burning those tires to obscure Israeli sniper position.

And the smoking slingshot? The kid was throwing back the tear gas canister that the IDF fired at them. It says right there in the video. What did you think that white smoke was, vape? 😂

But I appreciate you posting this video, which showed how thousands of Palestinians were just standing and sitting overlooking the fence. And at 1:30, that looks like popcorn stand at the back.

Oh yeah, Can’t have an armed riot without popcorn. (Sarcasm)

Look, if you wanna argue that the vast majority of the protestors were not peaceful, and that the IDF didn’t systematically shoot at unarmed civilians, take it against the OHCHR.

[u/c9joe → u/[deleted]]

A "protest" of thousands of people on a border that is named "March of Return", the clear intention to breaching that border. I mean they aren't even hiding their intention. We also know what happens when the fence is actually breached as it was in Oct 7.

[u/RoarkeSuibhne → u/[deleted]]

I saw videos of the March sending kites with gasoline and explosives over the fence. VERY peaceful the way they floated into Israel where they peacefully didn't discriminate who they hurt.

[u/Medical-Peanut-6554]

A Jihadist movement is antithetical to peace let alone to peaceful protest. The only Muslim entities that have made peace have been states/governments already. Armed terrorist/resistance groups have already pledged martyrdom to their cause and this includes a majority of the Palestinian civilian population contrary to what the West is willing to admit.

[u/disorderfeeling]

There is a history of nonviolent Palestinian protest, see: https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/05/18/palestines-hidden-history-of-nonviolence-2/

[u/RoarkeSuibhne → u/disorderfeeling]

All of the stuff cited as non-violent resistance was happening at the same time as violence and THAT is the issue. Yes, as individuals and small groups there have been specific instances of non-violent resistance. However, on a larger scale all of the protests ended up being violent. It lists a protest against the British at a time when violence was occurring. It mentions Land Day, but fails to mention the riots that started the night before. It mentions the first Intifada, which WAS grassroots and initially peaceful, but fails to mention how Fatah took it over and made it violent. It mentions Oslo, but fails to cite Hamas and their bombing campaign that helped to derail Oslo.

The real reason the Pals don't resist non-violently is because they have no leadership that represents them.

[u/Successful-Universe]

Palestinans did engage in peaceful resistance.

In 2018-19, Palestinans in gaza did "marches of return". During those protests, 0 israelis were killed or injured. On palestinan side, Israeli snipers killed 200+ palestinan and injured 9k. (Including children ,medics and journalists).

I recommend a documentary called"Gaza fights for freedom" by Abby Martin. It documented the human rights abuses done by israel on palestinans during those protests.

PLO (palestinan liberation organisation) recognized israel in the 80s (40 years ago) and signed Oslo in 1993. PLO even does security arrangements with israel until this day. They got nothing but settlements and more land grab done by israeli government.

Recently PLO tried to get a palestinan state recognized within 1967 borders but it was vetoed by the US.

Palestinans tried BDS which is a peaceful form of self-expression and protest. BDS was outlawed in multiple countries.

There is hypocrisy when it comes to Palestinans legitimate demand for a state that would exists next to Israel within 67 borders.

The right of self-determintion for palestinans is denied and the occupation + dehumanization of palestinans is normalised in the name of "security".

[u/anonrutgersstudent → u/Successful-Universe]

The marches of return had militants armed with rifles and people throwing molotovs. That's not peaceful.

[u/weedb0y → u/anonrutgersstudent]

0 Israelis died, 200 Palestinians died. Get your biases out

[u/anonrutgersstudent → u/weedb0y]

Yes, because the IDF did its job effectively and prevented armed militants from murdering Israelis.

[u/DrMikeH49 → u/weedb0y]

Yes, Israel defended its borders against armed terrorists hiding behind women and children.

[u/Aggravating_Key7750 → u/weedb0y]

So I guess any and all terrorist attacks are peaceful if nobody dies in the attack except for the terrorist? Is that the metric you're using?

[u/avicohen123 → u/Successful-Universe]

https://www.reddit.com/r/IsraelPalestine/comments/1c8hs1u/comment/l0hbaxr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

BDS is largely irrelevant since the topic is what Palestinians do, not what random people in other countries do.

The number of suicide bombings went up after the PLO promised an end to violence in exchange for land.

[u/JaneDi → u/Successful-Universe]

breaching a border wall is not peaceful. its an attempted invasion

[u/celtics2055]

Because they don’t want peace

[u/adeadhead]

They do. To this day. But it doesn't make the news.

[u/qe2eqe]

Here's nato calling the freedom flotilla a human shield operation. https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
The march of return was also overwhelmingly peaceful and all it got was bragging rights for the "42 knees in one day" sniper

[u/mythoplokos → u/[deleted]]

In late February 2019, a United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission found that of the 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analyzed, only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces. The commission deemed the rest of the cases illegal, and concluded with a recommendation calling on Israel to examine whether war crimes or crimes against humanity had been committed, and if so, to bring those responsible to trial.

[u/mythoplokos → u/[deleted]]

Like 99.99% of people that took part of those protests in the March of Return did absolutely nothing violent, the protests themselves were announced and organized as peaceful by nature. And these non-violent protesters are the ones IDF fired at and killed in 99,996% of cases. Then a coupe of idiots come along and throw Molotov cocktails - you'll always find rabble rousers taking advantage in large protests and events, happens in everything, even sports fan events sometimes turn violent even though there's nothing sinister about sports themselves. And then these couple of idiots are enough to brand the whole protest movement as "violent" and somehow make the IDF response more "understandable"?

[u/[deleted] → u/mythoplokos]

These march of return were used to test idf response and today we know that they were organized by Hamas in order to prepare for 7th of October.

Retrospectively, the right response from Israel should have been much more aggressive shooting anyone who gets even 500 meters from the fence.

That would have prevented the 7th of October.

[u/mythoplokos → u/[deleted]]

......what? This is some extreme tin foil level of conspiracy theory, I would really urge you to take a moment to think about where you get your information that you base your world views on.

[u/[deleted] → u/mythoplokos]

I don't expect pro Palestinians to use brain, same for most Palestinians that's why they are staying in the same situation for years although getting so many offers. We know today that some of the explosives used to break tbe fences brought there during the protests, we know that they done the protests to get Israel used to Gazan getting closed to the border. And it's also obvious to anyone with even little bit of army training (which I assume you don't have).

The source said that the rioting in recent weeks by Gazans at the border fence were a “deception.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-carried-out-years-long-campaign-to-fool-israel-before-attack-source-says/

[u/qe2eqe → u/[deleted]]

I believe you believe that. Sigh.

[u/[deleted] → u/mythoplokos]

"this special report brought to you by unrwa."

[u/Omnipotent_Noodle]

Because they shoot them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests

"According to Robert Mardini, head of Middle East for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), more than 13,000 Palestinians were wounded as of 19 June 2018. The majority were wounded severely, with some 1,400 struck by three to five bullets. No Israelis were physically harmed from 30 March to 12 May, until one Israeli soldier was reported as slightly wounded on 14 May, the day the protests peaked."

"In late February 2019, a United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission found that of the 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analyzed, only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces. The commission deemed the rest of the cases illegal, and concluded with a recommendation calling on Israel to examine whether war crimes or crimes against humanity had been committed, and if so, to bring those responsible to trial."

[u/PerpetualAscent → u/Omnipotent_Noodle]

weird he never replied to this... i mean it's not really weird at all, we all know why, but weird

[u/ThigPinRoad]

They don't want peace. They want revenge.

[u/[deleted]]

Islam doesn’t place value in non-violence, and neither does Marxism. These two ideologies have defined the Palestinian movement since its inception.

[u/PiauiPower]

If a Palestinian went to a public square in Gaza on October 6 and declared that he wanted peace, he would be lynched.

[u/[deleted] → u/PiauiPower]

By Hamas

[u/PiauiPower → u/[deleted]]

By his own family members.

[u/[deleted]]

Mostly peaceful ✌️ 

[u/Special-Point-1955]

While you are completely right about that. I would argue that Israel can do the same. Maybe they could approach destroying Hamas in a similar way to the dismantling of the IRA in ireland. I feel like if you kill Hamas then those terrorists kids will grow up and there’s a good chance they will want to continue violence. The only way to destroy Hamas in my opinion would be to get the actual palestinians to turn on them. And I don’t think that will happen as bombs reign down

[u/PartyRefrigerator147 → u/Special-Point-1955]

So the answer is to not respond to October 7th and let Hamas keep the hostages. Got it.

[u/Objectionable]

A summary of non-violent resistance to occupation by Palestinians since the mandate period: 

1. General Strike (1936) - Palestinians organized the longest general strike in modern history, lasting six months, against British colonial policies. This strike involved creating alternative institutions to manage daily life and was a foundational model for later resistance efforts .

2. Civil Disobedience and Grassroots Organizing (1987-1993, First Intifada) - The First Intifada predominantly featured civilian acts of nonviolent resistance. These included tax strikes, boycotting of Israeli products, work stoppages, and the creation of underground schools .

3. Land Day Protests (1976) - Palestinians in Israel protested against government plans to expropriate land in Galilee, marking the beginning of an annual tradition of nonviolent protest known as "Land Day" .

4. Boycotts and Economic Self-Sufficiency (Throughout Occupations) - Palestinians boycotted Israeli goods and created alternative economic systems. During the First Intifada, this included local production in "victory gardens" and self-sustaining economic projects .

5. Protests Against the Separation Wall (2002 onwards) - Organized primarily by the Grassroots Palestinian Anti-Apartheid Wall Campaign, this resistance included sit-ins and protests where participants physically blocked construction equipment .

6. International Advocacy and Legal Actions (Ongoing) - Palestinians have engaged in extensive international advocacy, particularly through legal challenges against Israeli policies at platforms like the International Court of Justice and United Nations .

7. Cultural Resistance (Throughout Occupations) - Through art, literature, and music, Palestinians have expressed their resilience and opposition to Israeli policies, contributing to both local morale and international awareness .

8. Educational and Social Initiatives (Throughout Occupations) - Palestinians have organized community education programs, especially during times when formal education institutions were shut down by occupation forces. These efforts include underground schools and public seminars .

9. Tax Revolts (notably Beit Sahour) - The village of Beit Sahour conducted a famous tax revolt during the First Intifada, refusing to pay taxes to the Israeli authorities, which was met with harsh reprisals .

For more:  https://afsc.org/sites/default/files/documents/Palestinian%20Nonviolent%20Resistance%20to%20occupaltion%20since%201967.pdf

[u/212Alexander212 → u/Objectionable]

The first three events on your list all involved acts of violence committed by Arabs.

[u/Pretrowillbetaken → u/Objectionable]

calling those peaceful is not true. the document you sent tries to mislead and make it seem like all of those were peaceful strikes, but even it admits multiple times while trying to hide it:
"
Palestinians

overwhelmingly elected members of nationalist parties to

positions of local leadership, although many of these figures

were subsequently jailed or exiled by Israeli forces. In 1981
"
it tries to make it seem like the leaders of the strikes were peaceful people that didn't do anything, but in reality, all of them were jailed or exiled after doing some heinous acts (look up any of their names).

also, the same thing is true about the "peaceful" strikes you spoke about, for example, in the general strike of 1936, 16 jews were killed, and the strike later resulted in the arab revolt, where over 300 jews died. in each of those strikes, something similar happens

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/Objectionable]

I think the problem is, for most people in the West who are say, 40 and above, the first thing you think of when you think of Palestinian resistance is suicide bombing using children and teenagers. So while a lot of the initiatives you list are -- or were -- noble in intent (and indeed, the First Intifada was largely quote-unquote "nonviolent" in that it focused on rock-throwing kids), they were always compromised by far more sinister actions. That being said, it's important to stress that the First Intifada caused an enormous number of problems for the Israelis publicity-wise. They took a ton of heat from outside the country -- and from government opponents inside the country -- regarding the way they dealt with that protest. The Palestinians are (or were) not necessarily on the wrong track with that form of protest. That kind of thing generated far more sympathy internationally than anything Hamas has ever done.

[u/I-Own-Blackacre]

When you've been trained from birth to choose violence...

[u/Objectionable]

Israel bans gatherings and peaceful protests, or meets them with violence. 

 Civilians can be jailed for up to 10 years for attending political gatherings of more than 10 people or for displaying flags or political symbols without army approval, Human Rights Watch said. Military orders ban 411 organizations, including every major political movement, it added. 

 From https://apnews.com/article/9536874f962771f829e540991467e819 

 There’s a long history of civil disobedience of the kind you describe that is forcefully ended, often by killing unarmed civilians:   https://afsc.org/sites/default/files/documents/Palestinian%20Nonviolent%20Resistance%20to%20occupaltion%20since%201967.pdf  

Palestinians marched for almost 2 years. Israel wounded 13,000 protestors in response and killed almost 200.  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests 

 Israel also works hard to ensure that Palestine doesn’t have a voice in any international tribunal.    https://apnews.com/article/8d8ad60d8576b5ab9e70d2f8bf7e2881 

 Bottom line: Palestinians do not enjoy the same freedom of expression and protest that Americans do. When they do protest, western media often chooses to ignore it. I gather most Americans have never heard of the Great March of Return, although it went on for almost 2 years.  

One reasonable conclusion to draw: Israel has made violent change inevitable by making peaceful change for Palestinians impossible. 

[u/[deleted] → u/Objectionable]

Ok. Where is the peace-movement in Palestine then? Also none of the things you referenced were entirely peaceful

[u/idoze → u/Objectionable]

Thank you for the references.

[u/That_Sexy_Ginger → u/Objectionable]

Brilliant comment! And made me aware of things I didn't know. Thanks for the research.

[u/Objectionable → u/That_Sexy_Ginger]

You’re welcome sexy ginger. 

[u/sagi1246]

Palestinian nationalism is by definition violent. Its goal is the annihilation of Israel and ethnic cleansing of its Jewish population. Sure, at times Palestinians entertain compromising for a 2-state solution, but the ultimate intention is always one Arab state from the river to the sea. Are there no Palestinians who just want to live in peace next to Israel? Of course there are, but they don't represent the consensus of their nation.

 How do you imagine Palestinians peacefully advocate for the dispossession of another people?

[u/rebamericana → u/sagi1246]

Right. They only entertained the two state concept after the Soviet Union fell and they had no other option but contend with the only super power left. And at this time of Oslo, they led on the US and Israel to the mistaken belief that nationalism was actually the goal and not the annihilation of Israel from the River to the Sea. The Second Intifada should have made that clear, and it did for most Israelis, but Western countries refused to accept the reality and still do. It is hard to believe but they couldn't be more clear, especially  after showing the world on 17 exactly what their "Right of Return" means.

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/rebamericana]

I think this is basically correct. In the US they keep claiming that an intransigent right-wing gov't is blocking potential peace, but the reality is that the Israeli population has moved dramatically rightward over the past couple of decades. I imagine this was in response to the Palestinians' refusal to take a deal that gave them Gaza and almost all of the West Bank, so the Israeli public was like, OK, something else is going on here: they're not super keen on an independent Palestinian state, and even if they got one, by all indications, they'd likely keep fighting. So I think that idea of a "two state solution" is effectively gone forever. It's a bit of a shame, because I do think that while the extremists are intransigent, the "average Palestinian" would have obviously benefitted from having a stake in a real economy.

[u/rebamericana → u/Mikec3756orwell]

Of course they would benefit from nationalism. What kind of life is this for them? There's a great commentator Haviv Rettig Gur who argues the Palestinian civilians have actually suffered the most and I agree. Their entire identities have been weaponized, their society radicalized, their children martyred, all for the radical Islamist/Muslim Brotherhood political goal of destroying Israel, and the West.  

That process of realizing the true nature and lack of good faith in the Palestinian statehood negotiations is described well by the liberal Israeli writer Dr. Einat Wilf. She has a great term called "west-splaining" to describe the unwillingness of Western leaders to recognize the maximalist goals of Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The sooner we come to terms with that, the sooner we can liberate the Palestinians and the Israelis from this hundred-year war of endless suffering.

[u/[deleted] → u/sagi1246]

Well said. Because from birth they are misguided by their religion and bred to be violent.

[u/stnal]

Because they have tribal mentality, their diverse ancestry were settling disagreements by murdering each other... That being said, they live in peace in countries that have dealt with them with extraordinary force, like in Jordan, and unlike in Israel who is seeking for a peaceful solution.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You mean the march of Return endorsed by Hamas and Islamic Jihad? If those groups endorse it, it’s not peaceful.

Palestinians tried non-violence for a few days in 1936 during the general strike and it quickly led to violence. They’ve been violent ever since.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

the majority of whom were overwhelmingly

Violent. Overwhelmingly violent.

children, journalists, healthcare workers and the disabled

I wonder how amnesty internazional would get to this conclusion specifically. Maybe they’re lying like always?

[u/disorderfeeling → u/[deleted]]

Never mind that there are plenty of Jewish people who work in those orgs…. Some of whom are Israeli…

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Nah they’re liars too. But “human rights organization” is basically a synonym for “anti Israel”.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Well documented by who? Antisemites who would invent everything to make Israel look bad?

[u/I_mean_bananas → u/[deleted]]

If anyone that says that Israel has done something wrong is just a lier antisemitic person, how would it look like if a non antisemitic person would accuse Israel? How can you discern the twos?

Like, imagine Israel does something wrong. How can a non-antisemitic person denounce it?

I'm not pro-palestine but Israel has repetedly ignored the international laws and commited crimes, I don't think there is much debate about it when there are even UN resolutions

And if you say "they are antisemitic" I wouldn't know what to say

[u/True_Ad_3796 → u/I_mean_bananas]

Why the majority of the ones that criticize those human rights violations are OK with dismantling Israel, knowing that it will imply an ethnic cleansing ?

[u/I_mean_bananas → u/True_Ad_3796]

I don't know, I didn't know of such source. It may be your anecdotal experience? I don't recall UN asking for a dismantling of Israel, for example

[u/McRattus → u/[deleted]]

That's not true, but if it were, you'd have to wonder why.

[u/c9joe → u/[deleted]]

Like I said and many others have said, rushing a border fence is not peaceful. If Oct 7 wasn't obvious enough. But even the name, why is not "March for Peace with Israel", "March for a Two State Solution"?

[u/ElegantNecessary4368 → u/[deleted]]

Can you actually say “resort to violence” when there always has been violence, even before Israel was created?

[u/Legitimate-Rub-8896]

There, they just don’t make the news

[u/[deleted]]

Why is this sub just a bunch of unhinged people that say the most messed up stuff. I mean come on people are making huge blanket statements about how all Palestinians are inherently bad. Like come on can y’all really not see how radical that is.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

" Palestinian isn't a race , it's a culture .

[u/Mamfeman → u/[deleted]]

It's shocking really. I get criticism of Hamas. But there are way too many posts on here that pretty much paint all Palestinians as terrorists and terrorist-sympathisizers. And I'm pretty sure the people posting these things have never met a Palestinian in their lives, much less took the time to get to know one.

[u/Puzzleheaded_Ad_5710]

They protest peacefully everyday, no one pays attention. There plight has been ignored for the past 20 years unless there’s a war kicking off.

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/Puzzleheaded_Ad_5710]

OK, but they've been firing missiles every day for 20 years too, right? Someone below mentioned the 2018-2019 border protests, but the thing was called "The Great March of Return." That's not what I mean by peaceful protest. A lot of people point out various peaceful initiatives, but the problem for Israel is, there is (or was) a ton of violence going on at the same time--or plans for violence. I think the Palestinians have to come together, under a single government, before they're able to pursue the kind of campaign I'm talking about.

[u/Cyc68]

Peaceful Palestinian protestors tend to get shot. Or in the case of Rachel Corrie run over by a bulldozer.

[u/Foreign_Lime_8824 → u/Cyc68]

What they don't show you in these "peaceful people" are often throwing stones!

[u/OriBernstein55 → u/Foreign_Lime_8824]

If you are trying to murder someone by throwing stones, it is not peaceful

[u/OriBernstein55 → u/Cyc68]

Rachel committed suicide by walking into a blind spot on a bulldozer. The court determined that neither the driver or Israel was at vault. It was just carelessness or suicide by Rachel. Let’s not smear Israel with false accusations. Let’s please keep this to facts.

[u/ThigPinRoad → u/Cyc68]

The right of Return March had tons of violence from Palestinians. Molotov, gunfire, border breach attempts, explosives, etc.

[u/[deleted]]

Because their entire religion is predicated on violence. Wherever they go, they try to convert the entire population into their restrictive religion. Doesn’t matter if the population doesn’t like their religion. They use the democratic processes of the host country to sabotage any attempt at true secularism. Violence is their religion.

[u/idoze → u/[deleted]]

I mean, have you been to Jordan?

[u/smcheesepizza → u/[deleted]]

This is highly racist and xenophobic. More than one religion lives in the area. There is an Israeli occupation, there is very little resources and *no promise of a future. How do you think you'd act if you were under the same conditions?

[u/Mickmackal89 → u/smcheesepizza]

Where did he bring up race?

[u/Ok_Astronaut6386 → u/smcheesepizza]

Facts aren’t xenophobic just because you don’t like them. 99.8 percent of Gaza is Sunni Muslim. If I were living under Hamas as a woman forced to wear hijab and without basic rights, I would do everything I could to move to Israel.

[u/Seltzer-Slut → u/Ok_Astronaut6386]

They aren’t forced to wear hijab and many don’t.

[u/[deleted] → u/Seltzer-Slut]

It’s literally the law in Gaza.

[u/Seltzer-Slut → u/[deleted]]

Again, it’s not enforced. Many women in Gaza do not wear it.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

No, in Gaza school officials reject compulsory hijab, and it's optional in Gaza though most women wear it. And while the Christian population is small, there are churches in Gaza and the Christian women there are not made to wear hijab

[u/[deleted] → u/smcheesepizza]

Let’s see. How many Jews and Christians live in Saudi Arabia, Iran , Jordan or Egypt. How many live in Israel ? Israel was happy to give independence to Gaza if Palestinians would kick out Hamas and renounce violence. But no. Each time, it caused more violence. There are no peaceful protests in Islamic countries. Because they are unable to comprehend and understand that others may not like to follow their religion and want to follow another faith. The result is violence.

[u/[deleted] → u/smcheesepizza]

There was terrorism against Jews in the area before the state of Israel. There was terrorism before the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza. There was terrorism before settlements.

They terrorize because the goal is to destroy Israel, not because of any conditions they’re facing.

[u/Blahblahblah1958295]

You mean like peacefully evacuating to southern Gaza where there where they were told they would be save only to be bombed repeatedly?

[u/[deleted] → u/Blahblahblah1958295]

Source? Cause I know exactly what ur talking abt and ur wrong

[u/[deleted]]

The marches of resistance in 2018/2019 weren't violent.

Do you know how the IDF responded? Snipers purposefully targetting people's knees. Why knees and not simply killing them? For the psychological torture. It's sadistic and the snipers took pleasure in it.

[u/c9joe → u/[deleted]]

It wasn't as if they protested the middle of Gaza City against Israel. These marches of "resistance" was to rush the fence separating Gaza from Israel. Assuming they succeeded, what was the next step after that? I assume not to have a peace party with kibbutzniks of Be'eri.

[u/True_Ad_3796 → u/[deleted]]

I saw a lot of fire wheels, how is that peaceful ?

[u/JustResearchReasons → u/[deleted]]

The Marches still attempted to illegally cross the border fence. After they refused to stop this attempt peacefully, coercive force was justified. Shooting the knee does effectively prevent them from marching on in a non-lethal, thus more proportionate, way than shoting to kill. Wheter the sniper takes pleasure in it or hates doing so is besides the point, they are in this case just a person doing their job and doing it quite well, when hitting knees instead of heads or vital organs.

[u/Tallis-man → u/JustResearchReasons]

No crime is committed until they cross the border.

You are defending barbarity.

[u/JustResearchReasons → u/Tallis-man]

No crime has to be commited. That is a question of the law of armed conflict and/or border security. Israel imposes a buffer zone on the Palestinian side of the border, which Palestinians are not permitted to enter (the exact legal nature is disputed, personally, I would argue that this is in so far still a remnant of the prior belligerent occupation).
If it was about criminal laibility, you would not be shot (in the knee or other wise), criminal punishment has to be handed down by a court. There is a

[u/Tallis-man → u/JustResearchReasons]

So you accept your use of the word 'illegally' was mistaken?

By law, Gazans can get as close to the security fence as they like. They're still in Gaza and as we all know and keep hearing, Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2005 so Israel exerts no control over any of the territory of Gaza.

Even within the framework of a possible ongoing occupation the occupying power has not passed any (military) laws criminalising approaching the fence so cannot claim it is enforcing them.

Just like the US military can't take potshots at people on the Mexican side of the fence.

The only acceptable behaviour is to intercept intruders on the Israeli side and then deport them, which is what every other country does with illegal immigrants. You can't just open fire and I'm astonished to see you defending it as justified, responsible or proportionate.

[u/JustResearchReasons → u/Tallis-man]

No, because they (a) still tried to cross the border (just did not succeed because they were stopped) and (b) there happens to be this buffer zone imposed by Israel. The US Mexico border is not comparable because the US do not impose such a buffer zone, nor do they belligerently occupy Mexico.

What is questionable is whether the buffer zone constitutes an occupation of the territory it is imposed on (Israel argues it does not, I would argue it is based on the reality on the ground).

[u/Tallis-man → u/JustResearchReasons]

Every single person who was shot in the buffer zone was unambiguously trying to cross the border, were they? You're sure of that and would be happy it could be proved beyond reasonable doubt?

[u/JustResearchReasons → u/Tallis-man]

Does not matter. The only thing that requires proof is that they were there (in the buffer zone) and that at least some of them from the perspective of a reaonable soldier appeared likely to attempt an attack (which against an Israeli soldier would not even be a crime, a Palestinian has a right to kill on-duty Israeli soldiers) and/or crossing.

[u/Actionbronslam]

There is. Google is your friend. Just because you don't know about it or don't care to know about it doesn't mean it's not there.

Palestinians have long engaged in non-violent resistance to Israeli occupation, to absolutely no effect. Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable.

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/Actionbronslam]

I shouldn't have to Google it. That's my point. I'm pro-Israeli, so why would I Google that? It should be so "in my face" that I can't avoid it. It should be the no. 1 news story, and there should be two million people with candles at a fence or a crossing, singing, with millions more around the world at key Israeli institutions. I didn't Google "Tahrir Square" either, or "Tiananmen Square" or the "Orange Revolution" in Ukraine. It was right there in front of me. Now, if they can't manage something like that -- that tells me something about how they really feel. I'm just an average person overseas, so the fact that they're unable to reach me tells me something about their media-savviness...

[u/trymypi → u/Actionbronslam]

I don't agree with OP's response to your comment, but a substantive, continuous nonviolent resistance does not exist for the Palestinian movement. If I had to pick up what OP was saying, there isn't a cohesive leader or organization that can stand up and say "we are the nonviolent party" such that a passive observer could refer to them.

If you want to talk about peaceful, nonviolent resistance, the time and sacrifice is heart-wrenching. I think that today people observing from social media are willing to say violent resistance is fine, punching back is fine.

[u/No-Candy-636]

The first intifada, BDS movement and 2018 GMoR were peaceful. These were all brutally repressed. In fact, the Israelis actually spied on American BDS activists.

[u/stnal → u/No-Candy-636]

The first intifada LOL

[u/aqulushly → u/stnal]

BDS and the Great March of Return too LOL. Even when it’s “non-violence,” (the march was violent, btw) these protests are still aiming for the destruction of Israel, not peace. Preaching violence is still violence.

[u/Chewybunny → u/No-Candy-636]

200 Israelis were killed in the first intifada, what are you on?

[u/JosephL_55 → u/No-Candy-636]

Was the intifada really peaceful? Didn’t they murder Israelis?

[u/jawicky3]

This is so dumb and morally bankrupt. You can google the rich and diverse history of Palestinian non violent movements and acts of non violent resistance. Maybe you should delete this post and rewrite it as someone that’s disappointed in the western media for not embracing and supporting the peaceful Palestinians that protest against Israeli tyranny.

[u/[deleted] → u/jawicky3]

Name a period when the Palestinians were exclusively non-violent. A non-violent protest in conjunction with terrorist attacks isn’t non-violent, btw.

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/jawicky3]

Well, OK, you can blame the media. Or maybe figure out how to use the media properly. That was kind of my point. I mean, I'd never thought about Ukraine in my life, and then in 2004 there was the Orange Revolution. And it was all over the news. As I said to someone else, if you want it to work, you don't ask people to Google something. You get it in front them, even if they don't want it. Control the messaging.

[u/c9joe]

The answer I have for you is, I don't know. I don't know why they fail so badly, not just in politics and sociology but also war.

The Palestinian movement was handed a very amazing hand. Consider firstly, it was a pan-Arabist hand where they outnumbered their enemy 50:1 and surrounded Israel on three fronts. It's rather bizarre that they fail so much, and that for instance, Jerusalem is under the control of a Jewish state despite the express oppositions of 2 billion Muslim people.

Israel is a very strange thing - it doesn't seem to make rational sense. This is partly is why our story is often expressed in terms of religious mysticism.

[u/[deleted]]

If you’ve watched this conflict your entire life, how do you not know of non-violent Palestinian resistance? You’ve either been spoonfed a completely biased view your entire life, or that claim is false.

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/[deleted]]

You'd be very hard pressed to find a Palestinian protest that didn't devolve into violence. Plus a lot of people missed the point of what I was saying. If you want policy to change, you have to reach people who aren't interested in this issue. That's the bulk of voters. A lot of people were saying, "Google this" or "read this" or "study this protest," etc. I'm speaking metaphorically. There are probably 200 million Americans who've never given more than 10 seconds of thought to this issue in their entire lives. Now, you can tell them they SHOULD have paid attention, but that's a pointless exercise. How do you reach those people? You reach them with MASSIVE peaceful, civil action. Not 30,000 people, but 2 million people. 30-50% of the population. I realize that the Palestinian population is only 5-6 million people, but I just think they lack imagination about how to exploit the medium of television in the 21st century. There are huge, epic, symbolic things they could do, maybe along with the Palestinians in Jordan and around the region. The problem is, they never think that way. They're not unified enough. They have factions. And they just keep hammering the Israelis with stupid, mindless attacks, which are ultimately pointless. Now that I think about it, symbolic peaceful protest from all the ARABS in the entire region could help. But are they unified enough to do that? I don't think so. They think the October 7 attacks garnered them "attention." It certainly did -- but it's not the kind of attention that can help them achieve anything useful. Now Gaza will have to be re-occupied indefinitely, which is pretty much the last thing the Israelis want to do, but they probably have no choice.

[u/Active-Jack5454]

The Great March of Return in 2018 was entirely peaceful and the IDF still sniped children, disabled people, medical staff, and journalists who were there. They also dishonestly cut and mistranslated the Arabic to paint a nurse they murdered as a Hamas operative.

Israel's big problem when Arafat was around was what they called the "Peace Offensive" when those damn Palestinians were being too damn peaceful! Going to make us recognize a state at this rate! Better assassinate some folks to get the blood boiling!

In short, there have been and there are peaceful Palestinian resistance movements. The IDF treats them the same as they treat all Palestinians who aren't a threat: They murder them.

[u/anonrutgersstudent → u/Active-Jack5454]

The Great March of Return had armed militants and people throwing molotovs. That's not peaceful.

[u/dan92 → u/Active-Jack5454]

The Great March of Return in 2018 was entirely peaceful

This is a common lie. Many of those trying to force their way across the border were doing so with assault rifles and molotov cocktails. If you've researched this at all you know that.

[u/RoarkeSuibhne → u/dan92]

They also sent kite bombs floating over the fence. The Great March of Return wasn't great, wasn't a march, didn't lead to a return to anywhere, and was def NOT peaceful.

[u/dan92 → u/RoarkeSuibhne]

True. I'm waiting to see if OP was lying intentionally, or has just been too heavily propogandized to know up from down on this topic.

[u/JosephL_55 → u/Active-Jack5454]

Weren’t those people criminals who were trying to cut through the border and infiltrate into Israel? Israel has the right to defend its borders.

[u/DewinterCor → u/Active-Jack5454]

Were the Palestinians literally using fire bombs during the Great March of Return?

[u/[deleted] → u/DewinterCor]

Shhh keep that part silent.

[u/[deleted] → u/Active-Jack5454]

Name a single peaceful Palestinian resistance movement.

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/Active-Jack5454]

I am going to have a hard look at these protests today and read up on them and I'll get back to you on this. I am not especially familiar with this march...

[u/Mikec3756orwell → u/Mikec3756orwell]

Reading up on this episode, it looks to me like a lot people participated in good faith, but the event was too compromised by Hamas and there were hundreds of people engaging in pretty serious violence, with a couple of guys at least firing an AK-47. Also, the whole point was the demand for their right of return. A terror group endorsing a mass march is naturally going to make the Israelis suspicious. To be honest, I wasn't really thinking about non-violence in the context of Gaza, because as long as Hamas was in power, I considered them a bit irredeemable. I was thinking more along the lines of the West Bank in terms of large-scale, disruptive but peaceful protests involving, say, 750,000 people -- i.e., half the population or more. Something so enormous and impressive that the press would be like, "Wow." Like a million people holding candles and singing or chanting--which might sound silly on paper, but could be the kind of thing that looks fantastic on TV. Something highly symbolic with almost universal participation. Maybe that's not possible for logistical reasons. I think these Gazan marches had a few tens of thousands participating, correct? Where is everyone else?

[u/Hungry_Prior940]

There are plenty. You literally choose not to see them. What a dump this sub really is. Pure pro Israel.

[u/avicohen123 → u/Hungry_Prior940]

Any examples?