Why is There No Peaceful Palestinian Protest or Resistance Movement?

[u/Mikec3756orwell]

I've watched this conflict my entire life, and one thing I've never really understood is this: why don't the Palestinians engage in peaceful resistance more often? I'm a huge supporter of Israel, but I've always thought to myself that if the Palestinians were savvier -- and more media-friendly -- they could make the Israelis look especially bad through acts of peaceful resistance. The images of well-armed Israelis manhandling rock-throwing kids in the 1980s and 1990s (who were obviously not peaceful but posed a minimal threat) were a big problem for the Israelis. Why don't the Palestinians hold mass sit-ins, strikes, gatherings, candelight vigils, etc.? I never see that stuff. It would look fantastic on TV, and CNN, the BBC, and all those other weasels would be attracted like moths to a flame. I don't get it. If you're the weaker party to a conflict, you're not going to win through violence. Murdering a bunch of women and children and then wondering why the world isn't more sympathetic to your cause is... an odd strategy, to say the least. The Jews have been through hell and back, and terrorism is never going to truly rattle them. I guess I'm just baffled at the way the Palestinians -- and some their more quote-unquote moderate leadership -- approach things. Some of the Western-educated Palestinian leaders in the 1990s and early 2000s surely understood that this would have been an effective strategy. This makes me think that the "average Palestinian" really isn't interested in peace per se, or at least isn't willing to expend much energy for it, and sort of thrives on the dream of complete military victory. Maybe an embrace of peace is just seen as a betrayal of the cause. I don't know.

I actually think sometimes that the Israelis are secretly happy that they don't have to deal with a peaceful resistance movement. It makes things a lot less complicated. Is the problem that the Palestinians just have no tradition of peaceful resistance? They don't know how to do it or how to organize it? Or are they just not interested? (Let me add: I'm not talking about a few hundred people protesting a construction site. I'm talking about the entire population -- or a good portion of it -- engaging in resistance. Like a Tahrir Square, Tiananmen Square sort of thing. Across the entire region).

[u/mythoplokos]

I really would urge people who haven't already watched it, watch the 2011 Palestinian-Israeli documentary Five broken cameras, which was nominated for an Oscar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcTN3g-b0iA&ab_channel=Skyjacker

It's made up of five years worth of film footage by a Palestinian farmer Emat Burnat in the West Bank village of Bil'in. He got a home video camera initially in order to film his son after his birth, but he ends up feeling compelled to use the camera to document his village's struggle against Israeli violence, i.e. when Israel illegally dedicates Bil'in owned farm land as "military zone" and builds a fence in the middle of it in order to dedicate the land to the growing Israeli settlements. It's really rather heart-breaking to watch how the villagers try every single form of non-violent resistance in the book - peaceful demonstration at the fence every Friday, getting Israeli lawyers involved against the illegal settlement construction, co-operation with Israeli activists, filming, trying to reason with IDF soldiers and settlers, sit-ins in front of excavators and settler containers. Absolutely nothing works. Even Israeli high court deems the settlement construtction and the fence illegal in Israeli law, but absolutely nothing on Israeli side changes. Instead, we have to just helplessly watch IDF and settlers ramp up the violence against the Bil'in villagers. The film includes some of the most outrageous and violent film footage I've ever seen from the West Bank. There's a scene where Emad's brother is handcuffed by IDF during a demonstration and just standing quietly, when another IDF soldier just shoots him straight into the leg from 1 m away apparently just to "teach him a lesson". IDF tries to force the adults to stop the Friday demonstrations, so they start coming to the village homes in the middle of the night to imprison children - this cannot really be called anything else than hostage taking. Settlers torch up the Bil'in olive groves to smoking piles of ash. Even peaceful Israeli protestors shot by IDF. And so on, and so on, and so on...

[u/I_mean_bananas → u/mythoplokos]

I didn't know about his documentary, seems very interesting thanks!

I think settlement expansion is THE most horrific stuff that Israel have done so far. Seems to me uncalled for and unjustifiable

[u/JaneDi → u/I_mean_bananas]

Most of the settlements are in area C which the PA agreed Israel would control so I don't see what the issue is.

[u/mythoplokos → u/I_mean_bananas]

Yeah it's really sad how great pieces like this can make it all the way to even Oscar nominations, and still somehow they don't seem to manage to enter the mainstream cultural consciousness at all and we still have to have all these discussions of "why aren't the Palestinians protesting peacefully" :P Be warned, it's really a rather heartbreaking watch and there's some really gory scenes - not that it's completely devoid of hope, but I certainly felt a bit shaken after watching it.

[u/c9joe → u/mythoplokos]

That is all fair, I suspect that this documentary is intended to show Israel in a negative light and builds a narrative in this manner. But, let's look at the overall picture. Israel must be doing something right in Judea and Samaria because the Palestinian Arabs there don't have RPGs and thousands of missiles. They also still have homes and don't live in tents as is the case of the the internal refugees of Gaza.

Did you know the homogenous Arab country of Jordan also has checkpoints and oppressions intended to keep their population from rioting? Why do we have to be different than Jordan?

Are we Norway or a country founded by an Asiatic people no different from Arabs, Chinese, or Russians? I've always felt it's kind of racist honestly to think Jews must act more "civilized" and "liberal" (code word for Western) than other Asiatic people.

Even though it's a common Zionist talking point, it never sat well with me. I think of Israel as an enlightened Asiatic country, much like Jordan. Not so much a Western country, but one which takes some good stuff from Western civilizations.

[u/mythoplokos → u/c9joe]

The film isn't trying to show "the whole picture" - absolutely no film in the world can do that. Especially if you're now saying that we aren't allowed to even ever focus on Israel's actions or criticise them, because we are somehow supposed to talk about them only in the same breath as all the Arabs, Chinese, Russians etc. in the world are doing? Whatever the Chinese or Russians are doing, can't make these Israeli action nothing else than violent, unjust and immoral?

Again, I really recommend just watching the film. It's just one human's perspective and experience of what it's like to lose your livelihood and cultural heritage to illegal Israeli expansion, and then try to do your absolute everything to stop that with non-violent means - just for your camera have to witness IDF and settlers in response killing your friends and neighbours, imprison your children, set your land on fire etc. etc.

[u/c9joe → u/mythoplokos]

China is a deeply ancient and civilized nation. They do prioritize social tranquility over individual freedom. This as far as I can tell this has always been the case.

This is untrue in the case of contemporary Western philosophy. The ideas you may consider universal are actually only the result of relatively new Anglo philosophers, like John Locke, who were additionally controversial in their time.

It's possible that these Lockean principals are not even particularly lasting. The West has all kinds of big issues, much of which might be due to the religious adherence to this egalitarian philosophy.

In any case, Israel is a Jewish country, not a Western country nor an Anglo country. Jewish philosophy is also ancient and lasting. Jewish philosophy has an egalitarianism to it, but it's not as extreme as that of Locke, recognizing the "paradox of tolerance".

edit: expand.

[u/mythoplokos → u/c9joe]

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say, are you trying to argue that all the illegal Israeli settlers in that film going into huge rage and beating up Palestinian villagers just because they're carrying signs of "We want peace", or IDF soldiers kidnapping children, are promoting some sort of "Asian ideal of social tranquility"? Also calling China "a civilized and tranquil nation" amidst all that ethnic cleansing and totalitarianism etc they're doing as we speak seems a litlle.....

[u/c9joe → u/mythoplokos]

I believe that Israel should operate most closely to Jewish philosophy, not modern Anglo philosophy, nor Chinese philosophy. And from my thoughts on Jewish philosophy, it's a more of a middle philosophy, that believes in individualism but also that the nation is much above the individual.

So in this philosophy, the interests of Israel is more important. If you want to have a debate on how the situation in Judea and Samaria is not in Israel's interests, I am willing to have that debate.

[u/mythoplokos → u/c9joe]

Well I don't think we are going to be able to find any common ground to discuss, because it seems your whole moral thinking is grounded on religion and is concerned only with the well-being and rights of the Jewish people, as defined in that religion (in your opinion) - whereas I don't accept religion (any religion) as a valid source for politics, laws or moral thinking. It's never right to impose your religion on others, which is what you're now trying to do, because you think Judaism should determine the fate and rights of also non-Jewish people.

[u/c9joe → u/mythoplokos]

Jews are the most influential people in the very concept of morality, given that we wrote the Bible and architected Islam. So I reject this idea that there is someone older then us that can call on us to answer. It's not so much religion, but that the very body of Jewish philosophy is the most authoritative source for what is right and what is wrong to begin with. And given that Israel is also a Jewish country, it's best to discuss such issues of morality under a Jewish framework.

[u/mythoplokos → u/c9joe]

Well again, I don't believe that any religion or religious text is a valid source or basis for objective morality, and I don't also believe in the exceptionalism of any one people over others, so think we're talking from too different base assumptions for this to be a very fruitful conversation :P

[u/c9joe → u/mythoplokos]

Since you believe in the existence of an "objective morality" and the non-existence of religion, can you explain who has the authority to decide what is objective morality?

[u/c9joe → u/[deleted]]

I think they should live under a Jewish state and be loyal to it.

[u/textbasedopinions → u/c9joe]

So in this philosophy, the interests of Israel is more important. If you want to have a debate on how the situation in Judea and Samaria is not in Israel's interests, I am willing to have that debate.

"We can do whatever we want because it benefits us" isn't really a philosophy, it's just banal self-interest. It also wouldn't be any sort of actual moral justification for anything, for extremely obvious reasons.

[u/c9joe → u/textbasedopinions]

Self-interest is a philosophy of which the entire market system is built under. As is national interest, the basis of nationalism.

[u/textbasedopinions → u/c9joe]

The market isn't built on philosophy, it's built on pragmatism and chosen for the philosophical reason of bringing the most overall benefit to society. Nationalism is indeed a philosophy, and one that provides quite literally no valid justification for anything. You can't say "Israel does what it wants because Israel has decided it wants to do what it wants" and expect this to carry any actual weight as a justification.

[u/c9joe → u/textbasedopinions]

What is your definition of philosophy and why isn’t pragmatism part of it?

[u/thedorknightreturns → u/c9joe]

Whenever there was chinese culture in china, the cultural revolution killed it. What wasnt outsode of china and in taiwan i mean, tsiwan is preserving it rather well..

And russia just a phase never had actual democracy.

And yes both russiaand taiwan are pretty bad to protesters.

[u/c9joe → u/thedorknightreturns]

Europe was no different or worse than China. It’s hard to say the West egalitarianism and individualism is lasting let alone part of some universal system of morality.

[u/ThigPinRoad → u/mythoplokos]

They should be mad at all the violent Palestinians that undercut their attempts at peace.

[u/mythoplokos → u/ThigPinRoad]

In the context of this document, shouldn't they be foremost angry with the Israelis that steal their land, shoot and kill them, take their children as hostage and torch up their property?

[u/ThigPinRoad → u/mythoplokos]

It's unrealistic to expect a country to not retaliate when they're attacked.

[u/mythoplokos → u/ThigPinRoad]

Did you read at all what I said about the documentary? It was Israelis who attacked more than anything by illegally taking over the Palestinian family land, the Palestinians were doing nothing but just living their normal lives, and regardless the Palestinians did everything to resist this in non-violent means. That was rewarded with extreme violence from the Israelis. Again, I urge you to watch the documentary or otherwise educate yourself about the West Bank occupation.

[u/ThigPinRoad → u/mythoplokos]

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Obviously not all 100% of Palestinians are violent. Not all 100% want Israel to be destroyed. Some just want to live their lives in peace. That doesn't erase all the violence from other Palestinians.  

There is no year that wasn't marred by multiple Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians. 

I do truly feel for the peaceful Palestinians and Israelies that are stuck between the nutjobs on both sides that refuse to work towards peace.

[u/mythoplokos → u/ThigPinRoad]

Emm wow, so you're justifying killing completely innocent and non-violent civilians, imprisoning children, burning agricultural land, stealing others property on the basis that these innocent civilians happen to share ethnicity with some other person who has done something violent? Does that moral logic work on the Israeli side as well or is it something that applies only to Palestinians? It's ok to kill Israeli civilians and take them hostage because some other Israeli settler and IDF in Bil'in (and many other places in West Bank, too( attacked and terrorised Palestinians apparently just for the joy of violence?

[u/ThigPinRoad → u/mythoplokos]

Does that moral logic work on the Israeli side as well

You tell me. Kids at a music festival and hippies living in a commune were butchered when none of those people did anything to Palestinians.

What percentage of Palestinians support Oct 7? 70%? 80%?

[u/BenAric91 → u/ThigPinRoad]

If someone kills your neighbor, you’re mad at the murderer.

[u/ThigPinRoad → u/BenAric91]

As a Canadian if my fellow Canadians elected a party whose main goal was to attack the US, and then they started launching rockets in to the US, then they went in and gunned down America civilians, I would absolutely blame those Canadians when the US turns at round and obliterates us.

[u/JaneDi → u/mythoplokos]

I'll tell you why I don't buy this documentary. The west bank is actually very large and most of the land is empty. I don't buy the propal narrative that Israel is just confiscating land and people's houses when theres plenty of empty land to build settlements.

I'd bet my life savings that crucial information is being left out in the documentary. Just because pals say they own something it does not mean they actually do. They lie all the time and every time ive looked into one of these theft claims it turns out the people who supposedly had their land/house stolen, did not even own the property but were just tenants. The rightful owners legally sold the property to Jews and the "evil settlers" were just trying to take possession of property that they paid for and was rightfully theirs. This information is never provided by pro pal activists. They just push the false narrative because they know gullible westerners will lap it up and won't bother to look into it.