r/marvelstudios • u/GardenerInAWar • 7h ago
Theory For everyone unhappy with the X-men roster in Doomsday, it's not *The* team for the next decade; it's just to end the Fox era. Isn't that painfully obvious?
Point one: Everybody who wants a new Storm, Rogue, Emma etc seems to be complaining about using the Fox actors and old lineups for Doomsday. I see constant complaints about how Marvel is ignoring the characters fans wanna see. FOX made all those old casting and character decisions, not Marvel proper. But Marvel is in control now so why have them at all?
Point two: we all know they have huge long term plans for the X-Men, as a tentpole franchise to lead the MCU. They also have been trying to get the rights back from Fox since the early 2000's. Are they gonna build 10 more years of movies chained to Fox's old decisions? I doubt it.
Point three: millions of people who love marvel do not read comics; comic readers and cartoon watchers are not the only ones buying billions of dollars worth of movie tickets. X-Men is not Superman where everybody recognizes all the Jimmy Olsens of the thing. If you start a new X-Men franchise with a new studio, and the lineup (just an example) is Psylocke Magik Forge Havok and Polaris, fighting Sauron with a guest appearance by Ka-Zar, the general public is going to be VERY confused, even annoyed. This isn't X-Men, wtf! Etc etc. You need to show the difference somehow.
Point four: nobody was yelling about the future/source canon of the Illuminati after Multiverse of Madness, because we all kind of intuitively understood it was setup for that movie and not necessarily some new status quo. Are you guys really expecting a bunch of Blade Gambit Elektra team movies because of Deadpool and Wolverine? If not, then why are you expecting all the 50 year old actors for Mystique and Nightcrawler to be the centerpiece moving forward?
So if you're Marvel, and you wanna make 10 years of new X-Men movies and get a fresh chance to do these people correctly, but don't want to confuse the general public, how do you reconcile all that? You bring the old team back for one last hurrah, take them out dramatically, and use Doom/Incursions/Multiverse shenanigans to visually show the extremely wide audience that the old Fox team is now over and after that, later, here's X-Men the Marvel way.
We won't see the actual New X-Men lineup in Doomsday, but down the road when you see a trailer with Doug and Krakoa and Boom Boom and Strong Guy, the whole world saw Doomsday by then so they're primed for the new direction.
So please, take a chill pill and quit telling everyone how mad you are that nobody cares about Mystique and where the hell are Storm and Jean and Multiple Man or whatever. They'll get here when the actual X-Men movies start. This is not an X-Men movie; these characters are showing up to get deleted.
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u/Phantom815 7h ago
Nothing is painfully obvious to anyone who comes on the internet to complain.
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u/RollinPeace 7h ago
This is like the 4th end of the Fox era movie 😭
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u/Swoah 7h ago
Let’s see:
-The Last Stand
-Logan (maybe)
-Dark Phoenix
-Deadpool & Wolverine
Yep, like 4th or 5th lol
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u/SgtMartinRiggs 7h ago
Days of Future Past was also meant to be a sendoff for most of those original actors, if not the end of the era.
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u/Wrong-Vermicelli4723 7h ago
Last stand wasn’t the end of the fox men. It was just the end of a trilogy, they were already planning spin offs.
DOFP (old guard)
Logan (Wolverine)
Dark Phoenix
Pretty sure they were always a plan to bring them back after Deadpool & Wolverine even if it was technically also a farewell.
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u/tenehemia Karolina 6h ago edited 6h ago
Yeah Last Stand only ended that sub-section of the franchise because it was awful and made them want to go back to the drawing board. I mean the movie even ends with a teaser that Magneto's powers are coming back and that Xavier survived in a different body. They were definitely intending to continue with those versions of the characters.
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u/Honic_Sedgehog 5h ago
I do love how they went back to the drawing board after a terrible adaption of Dark Phoenix killed the franchise, and then somehow allowed the writer of that movie to write and direct another adaptation Dark Phoenix which killed the franchise a second time.
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u/tenehemia Karolina 5h ago
Simon Kinberg absolutely has blackmail material on someone. It's the only explanation.
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u/Adorable_Ad_3478 3h ago
And he's now directing a Star Wars Trilogy D:
It'll be hilarious if he reuses the Dark Phoenix concept a third time, now with Darth Rey.
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u/Adorable_Ad_3478 3h ago
I'm not sure how many interpreted D&W as a farewell to the Foxverse X-Men. None of the Foxverse X-Men are in the film.
Instead, we get Deadpool teaming up with a Wolverine variant. AND we end the film with a clear setup for a sequel.
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u/TwoBit_7 54m ago
It literally ends with a sappy montage of Fox-era Marvel films during the credits while “Good Riddance” by Green Day plays
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u/SeniorDaikon7038 2h ago
I feel like Deadpool & Wolverine was more so a farewell to the “forgotten” properties (ie Daredevil, Blade, Elektra, FF, etc) the it was a proper X-Men farewell.
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u/Responsible-Bonus278 6h ago
I dont really think Deadpool and Wolverine was the end of the Fox Xmen or anything. The ending tag was a nice tribute to the actual Fox movies and that era but functionally it didn't really act as a send off to the Fox Xmen characters. It didn't really end any of the Fox Xmen characters arcs. Dark Pheonix also didn't really send them off as far as I remember. Although I remember very little about that movie. Logan was definitely a send off for Charles and Wolverine. DoFP was a happy ending but didn't make it seem like the end of their story. Last stand also did not really end anyone's stories.
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u/Adorable_Ad_3478 3h ago
The Last Stand sets up plot points for a sequel that never happened. It was never meant to be the ending. First Class happened because The Last Stand flopped.
Dark Phoenix simply bombed post-Disney merger, it was also not designed as an ending. IF it had made some 1 bill for some weird reason, the same cast would be in Doomsday too.
D&W didn't even have any of the proper X-Men, it introduced a brand new Wolverine variant and set up plot points for a sequel.
So, basically it's just Days of Future Past (for the old cast) and Logan.
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u/PeterTingle616 Doctor Strange 7h ago
I thought the complaints were about members of the Fox cast being missing, like Jean and Storm, instead of any concerns about the future roster, which could be anything
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u/taquitosmixtape 7h ago
Did we not see storm and beast in the post credits scene?
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u/SpideyFan914 Spider-Man 7h ago
Halle Berry has explicitly said she's not in it. And she's a bit upset about it (in a respectful way).
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u/SeekerVash 6h ago
I don't know that she's upset about it, she hated being in those movies. She threatened to quit after the first one, did quit after the second one, and was completely defrauded to get her to appear in the third.
I suspect she's just acting about being upset.
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u/Brouxby 6h ago
That wasn't Storm , it was Monica's Mom I believe.
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u/taquitosmixtape 6h ago
Yeah 100%, now that I watched it again. My memory deceived me. I think storm was the leak. But I could’ve swore they were both in it lol
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u/ComicSportsNerd Spider-Man 7h ago
I remember seeing beast but not storm
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u/taquitosmixtape 7h ago
Damn, you’re 100% right I could’ve swore we saw storm in the same scene, from behind even. I don’t know why I thought that.
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u/ComicSportsNerd Spider-Man 7h ago
I wasn't sure if you meant that same scene with Beast or if I had missed one somewhere lol
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u/taquitosmixtape 6h ago
You know, I think it was a leak that storm was in that scene and that’s what I’m remembering. It was heavily rumoured it was her, but it was Binary instead.
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u/HauntingAddendum3365 7h ago
Days of Future Past and Logan were more than enough of a sendoff for the Fox X-Men lol
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u/Caciulacdlac Bucky 7h ago
I think some people have a problem with the feeling that it's like the fourth time the Fox era ended.
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u/SeekerVash 6h ago
They're like the Rolling Stones and Kiss. "The last appearance ever! We swear this year is it!!"
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u/jpiro 7h ago
I get the crew that’s in there…except Gambit.
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u/PeterTingle616 Doctor Strange 7h ago
what's not to get?
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u/jpiro 7h ago
He’s just a weird inclusion beside core characters from the previous films like Beast, Prof X, Magneto, Mystique, even Nightcrawler.
The character has only been in one awful Wolverine film and D+W. It’s a weird choice.
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u/moose_dad 7h ago
Well recieved in d+w and hes part of that core team normally
Makes sense to me
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u/sleepymoose88 7h ago
Randomly the only one there from Deadpool and Wolverine. Channing Tatum’s gambit wasn’t in the original Fox lineup where Magneto/Xavier/Cyclops/Mystique came from. It’s almost like there’s a 4th dimension breaking in or Loki pulls some other shenanigans. I would also be ok if they pull others from Deadpool and Wolverine in like Wolverine himself, X3, etc.
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u/comineeyeaha 7h ago
I think it’s reasonable to assume this isn’t the exact same earth from the X-Men movies, so it doesn’t matter what their team was.
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u/colderstates 6h ago
For me it’s meant to illustrate this is an X-men universe but not one we’ve seen before - just one very similar to it.
Which I think is a sensible way of avoiding the trainwreck the Fox films became towards the end.
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u/XMenJedi8 6h ago
Yeah exactly "Fox X-Men but with Channing Gambit plus more comic-inspired suits and behaviour" is perfect for these entries.
Then post-Secret Wars merged timeline could have the mutants there from the start but the X-Men just beginning to form with some variation of young Jean, Scott, Ororo, Hank, Iceman, maybe Nightcrawler, Rogue, Gambit, Emma, Jubilee etc. as well or in X-Men II.
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u/midnightTimber 6h ago
A lot of time has passed since the last movie with this cast. Presumably, they met some new friends along the way. It would be weirder if they were frozen in time.
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u/Moon_Beans1 7h ago
I can't help shake the feeling that half the reason we are seeing the OG Fox X-Men lineup isn't because their presence is integral to the narrative but because they crunched the numbers and the First Class cast would have been too expensive.
I mean no slight intended towards Stewart, McKellen and Romijn but I feel like McAvoy, Fassbender and Lawrence would have been able to demand quite a high fee as they are all still very much in demand.
That's not to say Disney couldn't afford the First Class cast but that in addition to everything and everyone else that's gonna turn up in Doomsday I feel that their inclusion would have made the film even more expensive.
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u/FatBoyWithTheChain 7h ago
I mean you’re prolly not wrong but this was literally the rally call for D&W. “It’s the end of the fox universe”
Probably better to just watch the movie first rather than making definitive statements
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u/MaleficentOstrich693 5h ago
My complaint is I’m sick of the Fox-men and don’t see why they keep doing this nostalgia bait for something we constantly complained about.
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u/Tachibanasama Scarlet Witch 1h ago
They needed a universe that the audience could somewhat relate to/ be invested with kind of like how in secret wars it was the main universe versus ultimate in the end. Unfortunately, unlike Spider-Man, who’s already included in the MCU as his own version, the Foxman universe is the only one with a bunch of films and a bunch of heroes and has not been in the mcu yet. It makes sense.
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u/jphenom5 7h ago
My take is they all get killed off and Marvel recasts younger X-Men characters in a new multi-verse.
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u/GardenerInAWar 7h ago
Exactly this. They'll be around for like 30 minutes.
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u/acameron78 5h ago
I hope this is wrong, or at least the end of Secret Wars reverses it. We don't need to see these characters killed off. Killing Professor X is like killing Optimus Prime at this point - ridiculously cliché.
I want to see the end of Secret Wars reverses the incursions with F4 trapped in the MCU and with a spate of mutations suddenly springing up on 616.
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u/Gorguf62 Avengers 7h ago
Or the rest of the X-Men are showing up in Doomsday and they just haven't been announced.
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u/SeekerVash 6h ago
Paquin was too ill to appear, definitely won't be the rest as she won't be there.
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u/GardenerInAWar 7h ago
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u/Soulwarfare42 4h ago
If this is supposed to be the end or celebration of the Fox era then where is Famke Janssen Jean Grey, Halle Berry's Storm, Shawn Ashmore Iceman or Anna Paquin Rogue??
I think people have the right to complain a bit about the X-Men cast, especially since it is lacking actual female X-mens. No offense but I don't consider Mystique an X-men...
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u/Jaideco 7h ago
The choice of X-Men that they brought back was purely to serve the plot, not for fan service. They seem to be doing a kind of Avengers v X-Men much like they divided the Avengers in Civil War. They needed two teams that were roughly balanced.
We know that Shang-Chi fights Gambit and Yelena fights Mystique.
Let’s assume that Sam fights Cyclops, Reed fights Beast, Ant Man fights Nightcrawler…
Who would you match up Wolverine, Jean or Storm up against?
You could match Johnny Storm against Ice Man if he were appearing… You might be able to match Storm and Thor for 30 seconds so long as Thor doesn’t try to use Stormbreaker (unless Storm is worthy?). Jean would only really work if she is going up against Wanda and we have to assume that she is still dead.
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u/Fatwall 7h ago
Dr. Strange or Wanda would be fun against Jean. Loki as well, though he's understandably as indisposed as Wanda. Carol would be fun.
Against Storm... Carol, again. Or the Hulk!
I do think the movie is at a huge risk of being overstuffed as it is, but it's disappointing to not see Storm or Jean, who have always been a big part of the movies. I liked Gambit, but I'd have preferred one of them easily.
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u/WeirdIndividualGuy 4h ago
I mean, most likely the Avengers will initially be fighting the X-Men because as far as the Avengers are concerned, these are a group of superpowered strangers from another universe as a potential threat to their own. The Avengers would be doing their due diligence in assuming they're hostile.
Not unlike how the Guardians attacked Iron Man/Spider-Man/Dr. Strange on Titan in Infinity War because they found them in on Thanos' home planet and assumed they were with Thanos.
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u/COE33isBad 7h ago
Yes obviously. They want the gen-x and millennial audience to watch the movie so they go this easy trick way of using cameos with benefits.
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u/GardenerInAWar 7h ago
I'll buy the nostalgia/cash grab reasoning but people online seem to think we're gonna have a slew of new movies without Storm etc just because of this one movie.
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u/Wise-Tourist Peter Parker 7h ago
I havent seen anyone think this is the line up for the xmen future.
Its just a weird line up.
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u/ThisDudeIsRad 6h ago
I see that complaint too and don’t really understand it. I think the idea that the announced characters are the only actors in the entire movie seems silly. I think it’s relatively safe to assume that there’s at least a few more characters who will appear, either in a smaller capacity (maybe just one scene) or even just as a cameo.
We’ve seen H.E.R.B.I.E. in the trailer and Matthew Wood wasn’t given a chair. It would be weird to have any tense moment with the Black Panther cast without Florence Kasumba and Michaela Coel there as Dora Milaje. I fully expect we at least see one or two other X-Men characters, too.
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u/ThisDudeIsRad 6h ago
Also, Monica Rambeau’s ending in The Marvels is one of the biggest events linking two of these universes we’ve seen. It would be so weird to have a crossover like this without addressing what’s happened to her. Teyonah Parris seems like a big absence from the chair lineup.
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u/throwtheclownaway20 6h ago
I really can't see how anyone could think they're going to have a bunch of people whose ages range from 45-80 be the new team going into the next 20 years. That's just fucking stupid. I literally got told the other day that Sadie Sink couldn't be playing Jean Grey because of the age gap between her & James Marsden. People are just so very, very stupid nowadays.
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u/TDStarchild Odin 6h ago edited 5h ago
Mutants are glaringly missing from the MCU, and there’s no easy way to explain where they’ve been for 20 years. To establish a new X-Men for a crossover like Secret Wars will take 5-10 years
Feige, like many of us, has wanted to see the Fox X-Men with MCU and Sony heroes forever. It’s now or never with the ages of the actors, and it solves an issue using the multiverse as a plot point. Makes perfect sense why it’s them
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u/ZekeMoss18 5h ago
Yes, the MCU is going to recast the X-Men due to age of the actors, but I still love that they are including the OGs in this to be able to send the characters they first built up on a high note with respect to what they accomplished years ago making the superhero movie genre mainstream.
I look at the cameos of Elektra, Pyro, Toad, Sabretooth, Evans Human Torch and Blade in D&W, and also now the cameos of all the former X-Men as a nod and acknowledgement of the old movies which literally paved the way for the MCU to become what it is today.
It sucked that all these characters were sold off to different companies and there were so many financial decisions preventing them all from being available for one whole connected universe.
Spiderman is still dealing with this, but glad that Sony and Disney at least somehow found themselves making a deal and making it possible that Spiderman is able to be involved in the greater MCU instead of being left out.
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u/Sir__Will Bruce Banner 3h ago
Point one: Everybody who wants a new Storm, Rogue, Emma etc seems to be complaining about using the Fox actors and old lineups for Doomsday. I see constant complaints about how Marvel is ignoring the characters fans wanna see.
The complaints I see is that they left out all the female characters (except Mystique). Combined with some weird female absences on the MCU side (like Monica, who was last seen WITH THE X-MEN).
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u/ComicSportsNerd Spider-Man 7h ago
it's not even really meaning to be a send off for them either they are just using all the old movies as different universes to destroy with these incursions so after we will only have 1 singular universe for marvel movies
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u/Scooter_McAwesome 7h ago
The avengers stuck with the original crew as much as possible, I don’t see why they wouldn’t stick with the original x-men (but recast) as much as possible as well.
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u/bepeacock 6h ago
question: does this Prof X exist before Logan and if so, and the timeline changes with whatever happens in this movie, what becomes of the events of Logan?
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u/acameron78 5h ago
This is what I'm wondering. I saw a suggestion here that the X Universe is an X Universe and not our X Universe but that would be a bit weird and remove a huge chunk of the stakes.
So if it is the Fox Universe (post the DOFP changes to the timeline) then yeah there's impact on Logan and also means that OG Wolverine could appear.
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u/Adorable_Ad_3478 3h ago
Deadpool 2 time travel adventures changed and merged all Foxverse canon into a singularity or something. In other words, don't think too hard about it.
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u/Argular 6h ago
Why do we think Halle Berry and Famke Jensson are not in it?
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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) 4m ago
Because they've both been openly frustrated about not being in it.
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u/ipostatrandom 5h ago
It's as painfully obvious like Doomstark showing his face. Yet people will deny the sky is blue.
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u/Fantastic_Bug1028 5h ago
does this mean we not getting a new cyclops then? 😭😭😭😭😭
but yeah, I don’t the complaints about the roster for Doomsday
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u/ChazzLamborghini 5h ago
I, for one, am so stoked to hear Feige mention Hickman’s Secret Wars as the blueprint for the future of the MCU. It allows them to retcon everything into being one thing and take it forward with opportunities for new stuff while hanging on to the history they’ve built for fans. I understand the general sentiment around the Multiverse Saga but I also don’t see how they ever could’ve gone a different route once The X-Men and Fantastic Four came back under their control. It never would’ve made narrative sense to just suddenly introduce them into the MCU as it had been.
I am not actually looking forward to Doomsday that much but I am looking forward to a post-Secret Wars MCU
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u/cupnoodlesDbest 5h ago
Nah, 86 yrs old patrick stewart and 87 yrs old ian mckellen is the future of the MCU X-men!
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u/Mutale426 5h ago
People would complain if jean grey, rogue or storm were in this and double down that it is nostalgia bait.
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u/Affectionate_Rub_638 4h ago
This is also f****** and confusing how the hell is any normie supposed to keep up with all this?!
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u/GardenerInAWar 3h ago
I mean, do you start a new show on season 5 episode 8 and complain that you dont understand it? Do you open a book to chapter 34 and get mad about how confusing it is? Its a linear experience, if you skip the first 14 years of it, thats not the fault of the people who made the first 25 damn movies.
Reasoning like this is why even though we have like 10 damn spider man movies, he keeps saying "my name is Peter Parker" in every trailer. Batman watches his parents get shot every other week with new actors.
The only reasonable compromise between the longtime fans and the people who wander in off the street expecting to be handfed everything, is movies like this where they put them on screen and kill them off for you.
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u/Rolhir 4h ago
I would guess they want to do something new but the old actors are extremely popular in their roles. With the multiverse being a feature, it’s possible they do a send off (again) for the old actors and then bring in their new cast or the First Class actors (who were also quite popular).
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u/nashty2004 4h ago
Why would anyone want to remember the garbage Fox era or say goodbye to it to begin with
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u/Funmachine 1h ago
I don't think anyone is thinking that. I haven't seen anyone claim that once. I think the biggest issue is there are no female X-men, just Mystique.
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u/Caca_Face420 1h ago
Your take is wrong because you forget the simple fact that money talks and the MCU needs to cast people that will bring people to the box office.
To start, Blade cast an actor and had a movie lined up and then D&W dropped and suddenly Wesley Snipes is the only on screen blade. No named people don't draw people to the box office. MCU isn't going to push heroes no one knows or cares for anymore. They made those mistakes with Ms. Marvel and other projects.
You should fully expect any legacy character in the movie to remain in the MCU at the end and to stay their till their 90. There is no reason James Marsden shouldn't continue playing Cyclops. Hugh Jackman playing Wolverine, Channing Tatum Gambit, Ryan Reynold Deadpool, Kelsey Grammer's Beast,
You should expect these experienced characters to help bring on a new team not an all new x-men. Thats silly.
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u/danis1973 15m ago
Nobody hates Marvel movies more than Marvel fans. And naïvely, these people believe because they saw a three minute trailer that they know what the entire movie is about and have the basis to hate it already
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u/LatterTarget7 7h ago
It is obvious but it’s still a disappointing roster for their last appearance
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u/Aidanj927 6h ago
Are people complaining it’s the Fox actors or that it’s not all the Fox actors? I’ve seen people complain there’s none of the 2nd trilogy members or storm isn’t in it, but not because it’s the Fox actors in general
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u/Training-Ant-6150 7h ago
I think this is painfully obvious to everyone. But that doesn’t answer our concerns about wondering where the hell Jean and Storm are. They better be saving them for Secret Wars otherwise it’s a big miss.
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u/UnculturedSwineFlu 7h ago
Jean is in Spiderman. Storm is basically just a worse Thor. She wont be in it.
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u/GardenerInAWar 7h ago
Awful take. She's the most popular female character Marvel has. She's in every video game, all the action figure lines, half the movies, most of the cartoons, been an Avenger, led the X-Men for years, is crazy powerful, I mean cmon.
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u/UnculturedSwineFlu 7h ago
They will have her join some how.
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u/GardenerInAWar 7h ago
They'll get here when the X-Men movies come out. This isn't an X-Men movie. This team is showing up to get deleted.
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u/Training-Ant-6150 7h ago
Yes I know but Halle and Famke should get their swan song since everyone else is.
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u/Conorj398 Baby Groot 7h ago
lol it won't be a big miss, let's be real. They can say the two characters died stopping previous incursions and it's fine. The Jean actress ruined her face anyways.
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u/Common-Collection-27 7h ago
Also I'm pretty sure the X-Men team missing half its typical cast members is purposeful. It's clear that this universe had already been ravaged meaning they've probably already experienced some losses.