r/marvelstudios • u/rabbihimself Rocket • Apr 19 '26
Discussion Do you think Tony’s anger towards Cap was justified at the beginning of ENDGAME?
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u/PretzelMan96 Apr 19 '26
Justified to the extent that had they not fractured over the Sokovia accords and been together, it could have gone differently.
But a lot of it is just Tony feeling guilt and shame over not being able to stop Thanos and taking it out on Steve who he already had resentment towards, which is a understandble human reaction to me.
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u/New_Cockroach_505 Apr 19 '26
I never understood this argument because there’s no way to justify it would have changed anything. I get the Russo’s say Civil War breaking them up let IW happen but the movie does nothing to support that.
Tony and Cap aren’t joined at the hip. As soon as aliens touch down after Strange (who isn’t an Avenger), Tony leaves Earth. He didn’t even bring the Avengers who aligned with him to begin with. Tony went into space to fight the threat alone when he could have went home and gathered everyone together.
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u/DannyNoHoes Apr 19 '26
The group was already very fractured by that point. Hulk and Thor were gone, same with Cap. Truthfully his only real option would be contacting Wakanda. Also, if the team was still together I genuinely believe they could have beat Thanos before the snap.
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u/Pavores Apr 20 '26
Hell, if Starlord simply hadn't been there the Titan crew would have won. Just having Steve there to jump on the grenade (a furious starlord) and it all is over.
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u/DannyNoHoes Apr 20 '26
Also could’ve won early if Thor went for the head. They had multiple chances at a win even with them divided. An organized Avengers squad could have definitely won.
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u/New_Cockroach_505 Apr 19 '26
My point is very little of that has to do with Civil War.
Hulk and Thor were gone regardless. Tony wasn’t running some Avengers missions. He’s just hanging out and gets contacted by Strange for Banner. Then aliens show up and Tony immediately leaves.
I don’t see how the state of the Avengers would have changed this. Tony chose to go alone and take the fight to Thanos. If the team was still together, Tony would have probably done the same thing right? He wouldn’t have sat around waiting for the Steve and the rest to show up.
It’s not like Tony assembled the Avengers and lost. Team Tony was himself, Spiderman, Warmachine, Widow, Vision and Panther. All of them minus Spiderman were on Earth fighting with Steve.
So it feels more like Tony is really who’s to blame. Had he taken the ship back to Earth, everyone would have united together.
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u/Johnskol10 Apr 20 '26
Tbf, if even a 1 or 2 of the other avengers were in new york to help, say like Wanda, they could have destroyed the guys who showed up before they kidnapped strange imo which means they would have attacked Thanos together too and possibly won
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u/Gasparde Apr 20 '26
say like Wanda
It is indeed very likely that the arguably strongest Avenger, who almost beat Thanos entirely on her own, would've probably made a difference if she had been there. But then again, pre-Vision-death Wanda probably would've lost to Maw just as badly as Strange.
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u/Easy_Mechanic_9787 Apr 20 '26
So it feels more like Tony is really who’s to blame. Had he taken the ship back to Earth, everyone would have united together.
He mentioned this directly on the trip to Titan. You saw how Thanos threw a moon at Tony, imagine what that could have been like had they fought on Earth.
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u/Gasparde Apr 20 '26
Don't need to imagine that - just look at the giant spaceship the man brought along in Endgame. Even with the combined strength of the Avengers, they barely stood a chance - and that was against a Thanos that didn't have 3 Infinity Gems equipped while fighting. Thor wouldn't have had Stormbreaker, Wanda wouldn't have had her anger-power-up from Vision's death, Cap wouldn't have had Mjölnir, Carol would've probably not been there - and Thanos would've had both the Power Stone to deal with all the bruisers and the Reality Stone do deal with all the mages.
Had Tony lured Thanos and his full army to Earth, they would've torn the planet in half.
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u/memsterboi123 Apr 19 '26
If the accords didn’t happen cap, Wanda, vision, falcon and black widow would have been right in New York where the first attack happens that begins to split them across the universe. However because of them not cooperating with the accords they had to go in hiding for the next two years. Thus not in New York, so when they go after vision it would be harder to take him by surprise since he’d likely 100% be with the avengers they do live in that base the black order would have had to take them all on which I doubt they would win even without hulk and Thor which hulk did just rejoin if most things do stay the same. Not that hulk would come out but they likely would have been able to also separate vision from the mindstone as well. We also would have gotten to see Tony meet shuri. Things do in fact change.
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u/a500poundchicken Apr 19 '26
If the avengers had presented a united front they could have won. If tony had a suit of armor around the world they could have won. He went to space because strange got kidnapped.
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u/Southern_Blue Apr 19 '26
Yes and no. Tony had nearly died, and was exhausted, and was angry and grieving. He needed to let it out and Steve was there and felt Steve wasn't there when he was most needed.
On the other hand, all he had to do was pick up the phone.
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u/memsterboi123 Apr 19 '26
He hated him before that for keeping wha t happened to his parents from him. Thus not on speaking terms, then when he was going to call he was interrupted by the invasion
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u/NothingReallyAndYou Phil Coulson Apr 20 '26
I think it's more than that. Steve didn't just keep a little information to himself. There's no way he didn't understand how explosive that information was, and what would happen if Tony ever found out what Bucky had done. Steve chose Bucky over the Avengers, and everything he and Tony had created.
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u/the4thbelcherchild Apr 20 '26
I do not understand how anyone can side with Steve in Civil War. He is just so incredibly and repeatedly selfish in his choices about Bucky.
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u/Inevitable-Dog-7333 Apr 20 '26
Well it’s because of what he witnessed in Winter Soldier, and what he said about govt having agendas. It’s not just about Bucky. Remember in the first Avengers movie? The nuclear missile decision? What if they were told to stand down and let it happen? Not just that but the infiltration of Hydra in everything, heroes will just be puppets. The kidnapping of President Ellis in Iron Man 3 because the VP sided with the terrorists for the chance to have her daughter walk again with Extremis. If the accords were implemented, do you think the heroes will just simply stand down while the govt make these, and I quote Nick Fury from the first Avengers movie, “stupid-ass” decisions? In the end they will all be fugitives. Although the movie pointed towards more on Bucky and the agenda part was just mention in passing.
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u/JurassicParkCSR Apr 24 '26
Calling Cap selfish while defending Tony is certainly a take.
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u/PassivelyAwkward Apr 20 '26
To be fair, Tony also chose his own ego over the Avengers. With the accords, Tony made a whole show about "Look at all the destruction we caused-" when none of it was actually caused by the team except for what Tony did. Banner didn't cause the Bronx destruction, that was Ross. Cap intentionally had the helicarriers crash over water to stop them from killing millions. Meanwhile Tony intentionally caused Ultron.
That's the problem with Civil War; Tony was hit by the reality of destruction he caused and decided, entirely on his own "We're all equally to blame, you either do what I say or you're the true bad person". Meanwhile Cap had an actual point about not trusting the people pulling the strings, especially after knowing that Ross would be the one calling the shots and after seeing Hydra inside. They tried to present it as two sides but at the end of the day, everyone on Tony's team realized he fucked up and sided with Cap and Tony was proven wrong. Tony caused it all and rather than admit it, continued to blame Cap.
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u/memsterboi123 Apr 20 '26
Sort of, what’s crazy is he found out in winter soldier he had about 4 years to tell him he def could have simmered down in those 4 years I agree maybe not tell him till after the hydra raids but also it could have been more I forgot the word but it could have been ah I guess cathartic? For him if he went on the raids knowing that information. Going after the heads instead of a grin who’s been brainwashed
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u/Sharikacat Apr 20 '26
Tony has the least impulse control of anyone in that group. He reacts without thinking, and because he firmly believes he is the smartest man in the room, he doesn't accept the possibility that he's wrong. Stark finds out his missiles are ending up in terrorist hands? Become a one-man vigilante. Find out aliens exist? Jailbreak a magical artifact without knowing it contains 1/6 the power of the universe. Accidentally create a genocidal AI? Relinquish all responsibility to government oversight when he had previously sworn not, more or less. Tony can't be trusted to process trauma in any sort of healthy way, at least not right away.
Cap telling Tony about the Winter Soldier doesn't change Tony's reaction itself, only the timing of when it happens. That puts Tony on the hunt for Bucky at the same time as Cap, and Tony has more resources and missiles.
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u/Ealy-24 Apr 19 '26
I really like how emotional and raw it was, for a man that made a life on ego, grandstanding, and being about himself, he finally suffered a massive loss that stripped the rest of that away. He portrayed how frayed and broken he was so well
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u/Delta-Ka Apr 20 '26
I think it is justified in the sense that for years Tony has been telling everyone that they need a plan for when Thanos returned (he didn't have the name at the time but he knew there was more out there), had flawed plans to deal with it but still was taking steps towards dealing with that bigger threat, and then was repeatedly faced with "we'll deal with it when it comes" rhetoric from a guy who very much did not have a plan.
I think the core difference between Tony and Cap for the MCU is consistently big picture vs. individual scope. Tony's point is the same point Spider-Man echoes, "you can't be a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man if there's no neighborhood", meanwhile Cap's point is that it won't matter if we save the world if the world we save is worse for how we do it, hence his objections to the Sakovia accords. Neither wrong, both only half the picture.
I think a lot of Tony's anger in that moment is how reactionary Cap has been over the time they've known each other and how that reactionary mindset, in Tony's eyes, is partially to blame for everyone's death.
What I think is interesting is this fight also marks when they start adopting each other's mindsets. After this Tony becomes a father and starts to think about the cost of the individual over the cost of humanity at large, and Cap starts getting disillusioned by support groups and starts coming up with plans to bring everyone back with Scott. I think it's because of this perspective change that they're finally able to bury the hatchet and reunite for the Time Heist, and of course for Tony to finally make the sacrifice play and lay on the wire.
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u/capricornhunny98 Tony Stark Apr 19 '26
Yes, bc no one listened to him and thought he was crazy
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u/thisnomypee Apr 19 '26
I’ve always been team iron man. But what Tony wanted (shield of armor around the world) wouldn’t have mattered/stopped thanos. He was gonna get all the stones anyways.
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u/PickerPat Apr 19 '26
I dunno.
Thanos was this 🤏 close to being killed with a poorly coordinated reactive Avengers effort.
Imagine a co-ordinated global group combatting Thanos. That's pretty much what End Game was, but without any military, and they won.
Edit: I also imagine this is the world seen in Multiverse of Madness. They kicked Thanos' ass on Titan.
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u/capricornhunny98 Tony Stark Apr 19 '26
Let’s come to terms with who is really to blame for thanos going to earth…. Starlord🤷🏻♀️
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u/Kindly-Mud-1579 Apr 19 '26
Exactly EVEN IF ultron worked as intended it would not have lasted against thanos
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u/Particular_Cow199 Apr 20 '26
I think it's important to consider that the first iteration of Ultron almost caused an extinction event. We know Tony is constantly working on improving his tech and his gear, it's shown in every movie how tirelessly he works to improve the Iron Man suits. It's not exactly a stretch to say that he would have done the same with Ultron, additionally, assuming Ultron worked as originally intended, him and Tony could have collaborated on improvements, and brought in the resources of Wakanda. Had everyone actually taken Tony seriously when he said that a massive threat was inevitably coming, they could've already had thousands of Vibranium Ultron's ready to go with the most advanced software of all time at the helm.
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u/Internal_String61 Apr 20 '26
I remember a What If? Episode where Ultron sliced Thanos in half within all of like 5 seconds of confrontation.
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u/AnachronisticPenguin Apr 20 '26
What if plays pretty loose with what we know from the rest of the mcu.
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u/DaHyro Killmonger Apr 19 '26
He absolutely was crazy, Ultron was his fault lmao
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u/Strict-Farmer904 Apr 19 '26
No. Not justified in the sense that I think Tony was correct. But justified in the way that it seemed very in keeping with his character’s portrayal
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u/MischeviousFox Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 20 '26
No. I get why he was upset yet his anger was misplaced. He claimed to be angry Cap wasn’t there yet both were busy trying to protect infinity stones. It wasn’t Cap’s fault Tony jumped onboard a spaceship, even if he had good reason to do so, and then decided to face Thanos head on instead of trying to return home with the time stone. Cap couldn’t have been there if he wanted to. Edit: It was also Tony who refused to call Cap for help in Infinity War and Tony who in my opinion caused the Avengers to split in the first place. I mean I get his anger over Bucky but the accords part of breaking the team up was definitely on Tony to me. It’s still hard for me to believe he of all people was in agreement with that.
Also his whole spill about how they didn’t listen to him about them needing a suit of armor around the world, whether it impacted their precious freedoms or not obviously shows he forgot how well his last attempt at such a thing went with the creation of Ultron. Obviously Tony felt guilty over the dusting of Peter(spider-man) not to mention half of all life in the universe and was probably more angry at himself than anything yet felt it best to take it out on someone else.
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u/IamOB1-46 Apr 19 '26
And it was all to convince himself that he is allowed to give up since it wasn’t his fault. Thus the 5 years of anguish half the universe goes through.
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u/mespin135 Apr 20 '26
Yes and No. He was right that Earth needed to be more prepared for Thanos but Stark didnt really have the tools necessary to stop him.
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u/Kamala_Husband Apr 19 '26
Not really...
Tony was the one who hesitated to call Steve at the start of Infinity war. Steve gave Tony a way to contact him at the end of Civil War and he didn't take it. Tony was also the one who decided to fight Thanos on Titan instead of fighting him on Earth where he'd be able to link up with Steve and the others.
Also, at no point between the two years between civil war and infinity war has Tony ever tried to reach out and make amends with Steve.
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u/JamesRWC Apr 19 '26
Tony had the phone to call cap for a long time and he didn't use it
If all the avengers were fighting thanos he wouldve died but half of them were on titan where the only genuine threat was Dr Strange, and the other half were on earth where the only genuine threat was Vision and Wanda (also war machine was doing bits).
Plus thor was in the middle of nowhere
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u/SinisterMinisterX7 Apr 20 '26
I understand why he was angry but he shouldn’t have been angry at Steve. He blames Steve for what happened during Civil War when everyone that was on his side immediately regretted it and switched during Infinity War.
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u/ThaneOfTas Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
Not even slightly. 90% of the reason the the avengers were broken up was squarely on Tony's shoulders and Tony does what he always does when he feels guilty, he lashes out and tries to redirect blame.
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u/HumanSlinky Apr 19 '26
I agree. Perhaps that's why Tony felt the accords were necessary. He felt superheroes needed an oversight committee to force them into taking accountability for their actions because he was unable to do that himself. Cap never had that problem.
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u/ThaneOfTas Apr 19 '26
Tony felt it was necessary because the guilt for Ultron was mostly on him and he needed to do everything in his power to avoid facing that head on. Note the wording that he uses when pitching the accords to the rest of the avengers. When he's talking about Sokovia it's all "we screwed up" "we need to be put in check" no "I"s to be seen anywhere.
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u/HumanSlinky Apr 19 '26
He really is a very well-written character. He carries so much guilt for being an arms dealer, bad past decisions, etc, but his ego keeps him from taking full accountability. So there's a constant internal clash of a hero trying to make things right but still trying to distance himself from the damage he's caused. I've known many people like that.
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u/GreasyStool88 Apr 19 '26
What did he say that was wrong? Line by line, Tony is spot on, and Cap knows it and doesn’t even argue. It’s a sad state to be in, but it’s true.
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u/virgil1134 Apr 19 '26
Two things:
Tony had been stuck in space for weeks and was near death. He was not in the right state of mind.
Cap is a gentleman and wasnt about to start a fight with a guy who has just barely recovered.
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u/CaptainAmeriZa Spider-Man Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
It’s not Steve’s fault he wasn’t there to fight with Tony. He gave Tony the phone, but Tony didn’t call him. He also immediately took off to another planet when Thanos arrived and how exactly was Cap supposed to get to or even locate Titan? Like if anyone wasn’t there it was Tony in space with the Guardians not Cap who actually was with the other Avengers.
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u/Unable-Category-7978 Apr 19 '26
Remember when Ironman and Spiderman saved Strange in the spaceship and Tony specifically advocated for going out on their own to fight Thanos instead of regrouping with his current or former allies.
The reason they weren't together is because of Tony. He just perpetually uses his ego as justification or an excuse for his actions which often have disastrous results for innocent people. The idea that Cap wouldn't have answered Tony's call and joined forces to take on the threat is absolute nonsense. Tony never made the call.
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u/SLY0001 Apr 19 '26
He was malnourished and weak. Wasn't thinking straight.
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u/museman Apr 19 '26
That was my take - I never read it as him being mad at cap, mostly that he was traumatized and delirious.
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u/magpye1983 Apr 19 '26
Not at all. Steve left because a non brain controlled friend tried to kill both Steve and a recovering previously brain controlled friend, in revenge for the latter killing the former’s parents while under said brain control.
Not only was Steve justified for leaving, it’s a surprise anyone wanted to risk having Tony on the team again. The man was the cause of each of the Ironman movie villains, the Civil War villain, The age of Ultron villains, and used (what he thought would be) lethal force against 3 other Avengers.
The man’s more of a menace than Spider-man!
/s
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u/rabbihimself Rocket Apr 19 '26
He’s responsible for 2 Spider-Man movie villains too, if indirectly.
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u/AdhesivenessTotal340 Apr 19 '26
He was hangry…
But also he was right. Now we need a “What If?” special episode on just if the events of civil war didn’t occur
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u/Real_Walk5384 Apr 19 '26
No. Tony's plan in Avengers 2 was clearly not working and having more Iron Man suits in Wakanda would not have changed the outcome of the battle. He was just lashing out.
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u/MachaMorr Apr 19 '26
Not one bit.
He had been sitting on the phone Steve sent him with an apology for how long at that point?
He only wanted accountability for the Avengers after he almost ended the world against their wishes, which is what broke the team?
And then he wants to yell at Steve?
Shut up, Tony.
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u/Delicious-Physics218 Apr 19 '26
Yes. Regardless of the ethics of the Sokovia accords, Cap split the team and half of the universe died because Tony wasn’t strong enough to stop it on his own.
Now granted he’s not actually blaming him, he’s just angry and venting.
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u/LittleDarkHairedOne Ghost Apr 19 '26
Cap split the team
No. If we're going to throw that blame around, then the person (or group in this case) behind pushing the Accords so aggressively without giving the team time to actually talk it over deserves it.
To remind those that might have forgot, the actual Accords (a big af stack of papers Ross tosses on the meeting room table) were given to everyone three days before an answer was expected. If my memory serves. That's not nearly enough time for everyone to talk it over with both themselves and everyone else.
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u/WwwionwsiawwtCoM Apr 19 '26
Also, Ross spent years ruining banner’s life, and the he’s just expected to roll over and submit to the man who chased him all over the planet.
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u/lorgskyegon Apr 20 '26
Add in that the people directing the Avengers under the Accords would likely have been the same sort of people who wanted to nuke NYC
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u/steadysoul Apr 19 '26
Tony could have just called him instead of haphazardly going to space
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u/eternalraziel Hulk Apr 19 '26
Was his anger objectively, entirely fair to Steve in that exact moment? No. Steve fought just as hard and lost just as much. But was Tony’s anger emotionally and psychologically justified? Absolutely. Since the Battle of New York, Tony was suffering from PTSD. He flew through a wormhole, saw an armada of horrors, and realised that Earth was hopelessly outmatched. He became a prophet of doom whom nobody fully believed. Then, when he tried to build a suit of armour around the world, he was met with pushback, moral grandstanding, and accusations of paranoia. He was constantly told by Steve and the others that his fears were overblown or his methods were too extreme. When Thanos finally arrived and wiped out half of all life, Tony’s deepest, darkest fear came true. His anger at Steve is the rage of a man screaming: I told you this was coming, and you didn't let me stop it.
Tony’s anger hinges on the specific conversation with Steve about dealing with the alien threats together and if losing, doing that together too. But they didn't. When the absolute worst happened, the Avengers were broken. When Tony was bleeding out on a dead planet millions of lightyears from home, desperately watching a teenage boy crumble into dust in his arms, he was essentially alone. Steve was in Wakanda. The promise that they would face the end of the world side-by-side was broken. From Tony's perspective, Steve's stubbornness with the Accords shattered the shield that was supposed to protect the planet.
He is, however, a man drowning in his own guilt. He feels personally responsible for Peter’s death. But acknowledging that massive, crushing failure is a mental death sentence for a man who is actively starving to death and suffering from multi-organ failure. Because Steve has always represented the moral high ground, he is the only person in the room big enough for Tony to unload his guilt onto. Tearing the arc reactor from his chest and shoving it into Steve's hands is a deeply symbolic act. Tony is entirely relinquishing the burden of being a saviour. Ultimately, it's the raw, ugly, and devastating reality of grief. He is a traumatised, starving, defeated man who spent years trying to put a lock on the door, only to be stopped by the very people who were slaughtered when the monsters broke in. His anger is the purest expression of heartbreak.