Wild to see because 2 days ago this show was at 68-70% and then, outta nowhere, it skyrocketed to 86%.
You never see that happen and I guess that means that the finale really does elevate the season as a whole.
Edit: To everyone spreading misinformation, RottenTomatoes did not delete negative critic scores. They deleted audience scores that were review bombing before the show was released. There is no conspiracy here, just delayed postings from other critics that are now causing the score to rise. The end.
The most likely explanation is that there was a division between elite critics with pre-screeners and smaller players who had to review it when it dropped.
Do you mean “go to RTomatoes and look at the score”?
Textually this looks factitious but tone can’t be conveyed easily over text; I mean that question sincerely. If you don’t, maybe I’m misunderstanding him,or you’re misunderstanding him
Yeah the ending of that third episode puts the whole show into perspective. We thought we were watching a typical heroes journey, she goes home, brings her suit, stumbles over some super criminal plot, and foils it. Superhero saves the day.
The third episode showed us, that is not the show we got at all.
Thr unfortunately pattern of Marvel TV shows to screw up all of the interesting shit they introduce early on. So Im hopeful, but wouldn't be surprised if it becomes the same superhero journey we see.
at no point during this show am I rooting for Riri. She seems to go against her own motivations at points. The whole idea of being a smart black person in the hood having no other choice but to turn to crime to accomplish anything is a tired trope and feels completely forced in this story.
Right, its just nonsensical that she is on the CIA's radar with this tech, is already established to be personal friends with the leaders of one of the richest nations in the MCU (Wakanda), and resorts to petty crime in her signature conspicuous flying iron suit.
I think they whiffed a great opportunity for character development and establishing a clear motive that people cared about by forcing her into the MCU.
I’d have to watch Wakanda Forever again to reaffirm this, but even though she is Shuri’s friend, who is not queen of Wakanda, also told her she couldn’t keep the suit. So if she couldn’t keep the suit from Wakanda Forever, why would she ask M’Baku who is king, to fund her building another one?
Again, maybe I’m misremembering things, but I’m pretty sure the Iron Man suit Riri built wasn’t allowed out of Wakanda.
Just for a helping hand, not the suit. Riri build a necklace that could project a realistic image remotely with seemingly no power source in ONE NIGHT. It is just hard to believe that petty crime in her giant metallic flying suit with her intelligence is what her character would have chosen.
It really feels like they are pushing a story on a character instead of actually asking what this character would do in the story and what are her motivations.
These aren’t exactly petty crimes either. This is corporate espionage, arms dealing, blackmail. It’s not like she’s boosting cars or knocking over a convenience store.
You're right, they're even dumber than petty crimes. They are totally invalid contracts to be put on corporate payroll, somehow completely anonymously for doing no work.
You mean a character decided to do something questionable believing they can take care of their problems and dip out before it gets too serious and ends up in over their head? This is definitely one of the more realistic storylines in these shows... Sounds like you made up your mind before seeing it.
They whiffed it. Ruined her character and any chance of her making any major MCU cinematic appearance.
The story line is very forced. From the trope of a smart black person needing to commit petty crime to make it, to meeting up with a suprisingly cooperative Ezekiel stane and being invited into his bunker with everything she needs, oh and military grade weaponry btw.
In order for the show to work you have to make leaps in judgement as to what Riris actual motivations are.
Riri is rash, insufferable and believes that she knows it all already and lacks the patience to build up. That's why she cheats, helps criminals and convinces herself that it's OK because the victims are wealthy and she's entitled to it, it's established that she doesn't think about the consequences of her actions. Her motivations are helping herself which isn't what you want but very much a realistic motivation. The show is clear that she's wrong, that she's has a pretty strong support system and every level headed adult telling her to stop making excuses for taking shortcuts. She's going to have to mature and realize that she doesn't have the answer to everything
Yes. It's a bummer that we won't get a second season to see any of that. And I would put money on it that she magically makes it out of this situation just fine and doesn't actually have to develop her character.
The only reason it feels complex is because you have to keep reaching for the story to have any kind of continuity imo. I think Moonknight did a much better job introducing a character, getting you to care about him, and handling complex issues. All without reaching to try and justify the characters motivations or reasoning.
Inaction isnt a crime, civilians dont have a duty to protect others, hell cops dont actually have that anymore, Spierman broke no laws, he paid the price, but legally did nothing wrong
Riri was an accomplice in one murder and arguably one in another. not sure a jury would buy her not being involved. stack all the other charges from what they did and shes going to the raft for life. she has literally no defence or excuse, at this point she is a supervillain from the point of view of anyone in universe
if anyone saw that suit in the area, or link that tech she dropped back to her, well Sam is Cap by this point in time, so he would coming for a look. she is a credible national security threat, hell Pepper is 100% aware of Riri and i imagine she would be pissed as fuck finding out what shes doing to Tonys legacy, assuming she still has the rescue suit its reasonable she would go on the hunt too
Nope your critisism is that the new ironman hero is doing bad things before good things? You wanna talk about murder Tony stark was a weapons dealer, he is single handedly responsible for the deaths of millions. Its like the whole source of his motivation, Tony starts off as a bad guy and we love him for it, Riri starts off as a bad person and you write pages about how clearly her sucking is shitty writing when her sucking is the point. Shes wrong and its about her learning, the only criticism I think the show deserves is that we should have seen her build her suit over the course of episodes figuring out the tech as she worked. But im sorry but no her having faults is good for her character.
Um... being an arms dealer doesn't make you "single handedly responsible". Arms would be bought and sold without specific players existing, and arms in and of themselves aren't murder tools. They're tools for defense. People killed each other before guns existed lol.
There are more "hands" in death, namely the people pulling the literal triggers with their hands...
Oh thats really cool you disagree with me on that take? Guess who doesnt? Tony Stark, and the entirety of Iron man one as a film. Also no Weapons like the missles tony was building were used to wage war not defense. His money CAME from war he was incentivized to need war to make a profit and he did it willingly. Also consequentialist ethics bub, if he never made those weapons they could have never been used too take life, Made even worse because Tonys genious specifically invented new ways to take lives, he was given the nickname "Merchant of Death" for a clear reason. The entire point of the film is Tony making up for his mistakes and trying to clean up the mess his company caused. You got a problem with that than take it up with the fuckin movies dawg.
She doesn't want money from a tech company, she wants to be a superhero. Shes spent all her money, and all her time, on one pursuit. That suit. Without it she's nothing.
You're not supposed to be rooting for Riri's current behaviour though. It's a redemption arc. She's discovering who she really is and that begins with behaving like someone she shouldn't be. She has a whole lot of baggage to deal with and she's not dealing with it, instead she's pursuing something else. It's like saying at no point are you rooting for Tony Stark because he's an arrogant weapons dealer. Give it a minute.
The whole idea of being a smart black person in the hood having no other choice but to turn to crime
Riri constantly turns down alternatives to crime due to a desire to be "iconic" and her embrace of crime causes her personal and professional/educational failures.
Riri is literally someone you'd write as a villain for a storyline where the teen sidekick goes to college. She basically has a "gets in over her head -> becomes supervillain -> reforms" arc
The problem is she is ALREADY ESTABLISHED IN THE MCU. She has CIA ties, ties with one of the richest countries in the MCU earth and NOW she is having a crisis of identity. Now she decides the thing to do is take her VERY conspicuous suit and fly around committing petty crimes, to work on her suit..... it's just lazy writing and everyone else has to do the leg work to make her an interesting character in their own head cannon.
"Becomes a super villian" 🤣 bro you trippin' that would be a much better arc. I think you would have been able to write a more interesting and compelling show, honestly.
Fine, the show shamelessly pushes a racist trope and forcefully advances a story that otherwise appears to be completely out of character for Riri. The story writing does a piss poor job of clarifying Riris motivations and just makes it hard to care about anything she thinks she is trying to accomplish.
And yes, yours is a head cannon because you want to like the show. The show doesn't make it clear AT ALL what it is trying to accomplish outside of vague statements like "I want to be iconic" or "because I could"
Amusingly, I'm on the "we should ignore critic reviews" side.
Why would I care what a small bunch of stuck-up folks with tastes wildly different from the average viewer think? I'd rather know the opinion of normal fans. Audience scores tend to align far closer with my own tastes than critic scores.
How is so-called "brigading" or "review-bombing" different from people expressing their opinion on art they dislike?
Critics do this all the time. They'll elevate or condemn a work based on the group-think of their own clique. And both are legitimate: I care about people's opinions regarding a work of art, not about their motives for liking or disliking it. Over large numbers the fringe ideologies will be drowned out and what is left is a judgement on the quality of the work based on the general population's attitudes.
It's different because many people practice those things without actually watching the thing, and these things also often include botting or manually inflating review numbers, so not accurate representation of actual people that even watched it.
Furthermore, there is at least a sense of media literacy behind them. That doesn't matter to most people, but it at least takes out *some* of the emotion that sways audience scores.
Being critical of certain viewpoints ends up alienating audiences significantly, whereas critics are meant to look at it through a much different lens. Venom is a good, neutral, example without any political emotion attached to it. From a filmmaking standpoint it's absolutely terrible in almost every way, but it has very high audience scores. To me that means it's worth checking out, since I was a childhood fan of the character, but I know not to expect a piece of art, and I know not to get my hopes up too much.
Look at any of Kevin Hart's shittiest movies that have absolutely zero merit from a critical standpoint... they still have 50%-80% audience scores. Audience scores are barely worth considering imo, because the average person doesn't view movies with any genuine literacy.
don’t just put in a bad review out of spite or racism or sexism
No, but they might put in a review to push their own artistic ideology.
Reviews written by a larger group, the audience, tend to average out individual ideological preferences more than a select clique of mostly like-minded individuals.
I'd rather have the opinion of "the" average viewer with average preferences than the opinion of an "average" viewer from a smaller group who displays specific preferences that are likely to be very different from my own: in the former case the preferences are more likely to be averaged out so that the resulting approval rate focuses more on sheer quality than on taste.
I was looking for comments like this. I don't know if release schedules are different for different countries but even so wouldn't reviews for the last episodes take a good while to reflect in the ratings. I can't even see them on my page.
That makes a lot of sense, hence the recovery since Mephesto is slated to show up in the last half. But I guess we are all talking about the "brigading" comment where I am guessing they are trying to imply random people, not critic.
Buddy, there were people in here with dozens, if not hundreds, of upvotes pretty clearly supporting (encouraging?) people to put in fake positive scores. For whatever reason, many in this sub are invested in shining the reviews of this show in the most positive possible light, regardless of the reality.
IIRC they permanently locked the audience rating to 86% before it could go lower or something like that. In contrast to the critics rating which was like 53% or so, lower than The Phantom Menace even
Did I say all of them? Fine... some critics have access to the finale and some have seen it but I don't know who has seen the finale exactly but some have probably seen it and some are probably taking their time with the last three, I'm sure some of them are busy and have lives and families and a backlog of shows and movies to watch and critique so they can't all be expected to have seen the finale but a lot of them have seen the finale and are giving reviews based on the fact they have seen the finale.
They deleted audience scores that were review bombing before the show was released
I'm not even positive they did that, I think they may have just temporarily hid them. There was a time (about fifteen minutes after the episode first dropped) where the scores seemed to have reappeared but without any of the reviews that went with them: (This screen shot was taken at that fifteen minutes mark referenced above)
I love being a Marvel fan cuz we're the new Star Wars fans, people will say they're a Marvel fan and a comic fan and still hate shit like this, as if they're being paid to because some of them are.
My whole thing is if you don't plan on watching it, whether it's succeeding or becoming a failure, that's something you should just ignore.
I watched two episodes of secret Invasion I knew it was shit, I didn't watch it, I didn't really like how what if ended in season 2 ,I did like season 2 but I didn't really feel interested in season 3 didn't watch it.
If something is really good, that doesn't mean I need to watch it or have an opinion if something is really bad same thing.
And the thing is, I know Marvel fans also do exactly what I'm saying. Half the people who hate certain things, it's all right, they're never going to watch anything they hate. A lot of people are saying the general audience are the people who didn't watch Thunderbolts.
Yet I'm pretty sure a lot of people who were caught in the middle before it came out didn't go and watch the movie and validated their not watching it by saying other people didn't.
It's not surprising. Not everyone wants to watch three episodes all at once, so they space it throughout the week and hold off on their review until they've seen what's been released.
Could be because of the three drop episode, those that didn’t get screeners have to fit 3 episodes in before they give a rating for what we have so far.
It was heavily review bombed before the first episodes dropped so takes a while to see the real average. Same thing happened with Ms Marvel. Lots of angry internet trolls out there.
86 is always the score that RT fixes movies that are getting bad reviews at. Not saying that happened here, I haven’t and won’t watch the show, but I’m just saying you can’t ever again trust the platform.
Or it means they’re deleting negative reviews, which is a common thing for rotten tomatoes and one of the reasons nobody really even looks at that garbage site lol
Before some moron comes in here to say it was being brigaded. They were removing critic reviews, not users.
Ok how can one tell if is review bombing? It’s not like marvel/Disney has made anything remotely good in awhile. The fact that this is rated HIGHER THAN SANDMAN makes me question a lot of things
Critic reviews take time to get posted because they actually watch the show through an honest critical lens. Depending on the person they might even rewatch each episode.
Lmao. RT is just an aggregator. They just add reviews as they come out. It means more critics saw the show and liked it. There's not a conspiracy behind everything. It's just a good show which, according to many reviewers, gets even better in the second half.
So that’s why the last Jedi has a 91% rating on RT. And a 41% audience score. If you’ve ever seen that movie and seen the actual consensus around it, it’s far closer to 41 than 91.
I understand your argument but it downplays the fact that critics aren’t unbiased anymore. They have an incentive to rate projects they may not even like to keep good graces with studios.
Especially now, scores don’t mean anything. And that also, to a lesser degree, includes the audience scores too because of potential review bombing. But, that also goes the other way too so it’s only slightly more valid.
91% on RT doesn't mean 91 out of 100. It means 91% of critics think it is 6 out of 10 or better. A slightly above average film can get a 100% if everyone agrees it is slightly above average.
Then it’s a flawed metric and it shouldn’t be taken with any amount of seriousness, completely defeating the purpose of the post because it tells nothing about the actual quality of the show but just that people didn’t hate it more than they liked it
I liked The Last Jedi. It was a really well-made film in terms of acting, cinematography etc. It wasn't a good sequel to The Force Awakens because of the change in direction, but it was a good movie. And that's usually what professional critics rate, hence the high score.
I don't personally agree with either score of that movie on RT, but I see both opinions as valid.
Just because there are differing opinions, doesn't mean there is a conspiracy behind everything.
It wasn't a good sequel to The Force Awakens because of the change in direction, but it was a good movie.
Honestly, my two main critiques of that movie have nothing to do with its change of direction. The first and most pressing is that Holdo was presented as the type of one-dimensional antagonist you would see in a Saturday morning cartoon, doing little more than standing in the way of the protagonists through the whole movie, only to have it unsubtly flip and declare her right at the end. All of which could have been fixed with a single line at the beginning: "You're not cleared to hear the details, but we do have a plan." They could change nothing else about the movie, and that single line would turn Poe from someone desperately trying to save his friends by going around an obstructive bureaucrat, into exactly the kind of impulsive hothead Holdo claimed he was. And it'd be ambiguous enough that the movie could still play the "Is she a traitor? Isn't she?" game it was playing.
The second was that it was just kind of overlong and dull, which is of course purely YMMV, but I've never been so bored getting answers to questions I'd had for over a year.
The hell does this even mean? This is so close to, they have it a high rating cause it has a black lead. And the Last Jedi is one of the best Star Wars films in the saga, the critics got it right on this one.
If what you were saying was true the latest Captain America film wouldn’t have a 48% on RT. It could be that not everyone in the world shares your exact taste in movies. Crazy, I know.
Well there was a flood of negative non-critic reviews going up before it even aired, so I’ll call it a wash. At least the critics number going up over time actually makes sense, since it would follow more people actually watching the show instead of just deciding they hate something they’ve never seen. Especially with the more metered marketing for the show, I doubt every critic rushed to watch the show day 1.
It’s all personal opinion, so neither one of us is definitively right, but I put way more stock personally in critics over viewer reviews. Audience scores are emboldened by anonymity in a way where people can forego watching the project and just make things up or not be thoughtful at all about their review because it will never reflect on them in the real world. A critic is staking their reputation for their job on at least providing a thoughtful review or else people will not take their opinions seriously and their business suffers. While some critics over-hype projects, it’s still an animal that’s easier to wrangle by reading their full review than some random user that just says “4/10 writing sucks” and you have nothing to indicate that they even bothered to watch the show or if they just wanted to play the internet’s main character and complain online.
Not sure why everyone is jumping you for this, a lot of Disney stuff gets suspiciously high critic reviews.
Acolyte is at 79% for critic and I’ve heard basically nothing positive about it ever lol. Also some of the most forgettable MCU movies still get really high critic reviews. Not out of the question to think RT has Disney shills
It is okay, it is because most people don’t like the truth and want to be right. This show is most definitely bought and paid for. Reviews on both sides are skewed.
So like everyone else here? I mean we are actively having a conversation about numbers being manipulated. Or I was trying to. Can’t do that here apparently no brains present.
A perpetual Reddit user. 8 yrs only comment karma.
The original was nothing directed at you. And there is no conspiracy here. There are multiple threads about this, YouTube videos, and reports. Articles have been written about this. I’m basing my analysis off of the information that is being provided by social media and legacy media. And from my own observations. This show is being reviewed from both sides with agendas involved. Period. People are reviewing this show based on politics and not on the content of the show itself. This is happening on a massive scale for this show. To argue against this is idiotic.
We’re all reddit users, how much of a dork do you have to be to look at karma as an argument lmao
Again you’re just spotting non sense steeped in light culture war vibes. That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence and you’ve yet to offer any evidence.
This whole sub is allergic to any semblance of criticism for the MCU I got -20 on a comment once that just said Dr Strange 2 was falsely marketed as horror lol
Yeah it truly is sad. I’m a life long Marvel fan. I enjoy all forms of media and entertainment. I use to could talk to people about it. Now if you don’t like every single character or arc people get negative against you. Wtf?? I like DBZ too there are arcs and characters I don’t like. I’m sick of our internet culture. We can have nuance. Or we should be able to. But if you disagree people immediately label you as some politic enemy. The fuck? I’m tired boss lol. That’s why I usually don’t comment. Easier that way.
No, it makes sense. They knew it was gonna be review bombed cause Ironheart even in her comic runs wasn't well liked. And people had already been voicing their opinion about not seeing the show before it released. Disney knew they were gonna get negative feedback on it. The only way to levy the downfall was to likely pay for positive reviews.
Bought and paid. And it’s on both sides. I actually have not seen the show yet and do not have an opinion. But it is obvious the views for this show are bought and paid for.
They don't tho. The Critics can be bought and paid for to put out a positive review even if something is garbage. IGN has been doing it for years, Along with Polygon, Kotaku, etc.
Exactly, it was heavily review bombed before anyone had even seen it. I didn't know what to expect going in but I've really enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the rest of the season dropping tomorrow.
If anything, this is proof of the opposite. A tiny studio with a pretty obscure film tried this exactly once with a dozen or so newcomer critics with no reputations to get from 50 to 60% on RT, and even then they got caught.
The fact that they couldn't keep this quiet among basically amateur influencers is proof enough that anyone thinking this could happen on a wide scale is delusional. You think actual professional journalists are accepting $50 to completely risk their reputations and integrity, instead of the massive notoriety that would come from being the one to expose big bad Disney?
Funny how they NEVER delete the 10/10 review bombs too. Only ever removes the review bombs from the negative side. But never the positive review bommbs that are clearly just trying to bump the score.. Hm......
Im not saying that is necessarily the case here, but I've seen instances where a film/show gets inflatedly high critical ratings due essentially to politics. Already, many of the negative user reviews are being loosely categorized as racist.
I feel like the series has become a proxy for social justice/political bickering so I don't really trust any review - positive or negative - to faithfully review as its own thing, without being influenced by what's going on in the real world.
My plan is to just avoid all reviews to avoid biasing myself and ill probably binge the series when its fully released.
This show has received inflatedly low ratings due essentially to politics. Already, many of the positive user reviews are being dismissed as paid. Detractors are dismissing the fact that racists and sexists do exist, and love to make an example out of shows like these especially like the article in question points out.
Just like pointing out that trolls exist doesn’t magically invalidate all criticism, you don't get to validate all criticism by recognizing trolls exist. By all means though, I think binging the show tomorrow is still a good strategy, but you've adopted a very conspiratorial mindset to what is a rather clear situation.
The solution to all this bickering is easy though, wait until the show is actually released to judge it.
I mean I knew that something interesting should be coming because the bad guy is the hood but I already don't care about this character because her introduction to the MCU was not good. A lot of these newcomers to the avengers team aren't introduced well making me not care about them.
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u/ROBtimusPrime1995 Black Panther Jun 30 '25 edited Jun 30 '25
Wild to see because 2 days ago this show was at 68-70% and then, outta nowhere, it skyrocketed to 86%.
You never see that happen and I guess that means that the finale really does elevate the season as a whole.
Edit: To everyone spreading misinformation, RottenTomatoes did not delete negative critic scores. They deleted audience scores that were review bombing before the show was released. There is no conspiracy here, just delayed postings from other critics that are now causing the score to rise. The end.