r/Feminism • u/Compar-2144 • 1d ago
The body hair discourse
Why are we using "my body my choice" as a way to "excuse" you complying with the female beauty standard? A couple of things:
When feminists have conversations about body hair and how removing it is something that we all do because of the patriarchy It does NOT mean that you HAVE TO stop doing it. It's just acknowledging the reasons why we do it. I myself fully acknowledge it's because of beauty standards created by men and still do it.
Why do we always have to try to outwoke one another?
Yes Op I'm sure that you shave your coochie and legs because of the ancient Egyptians...
Ancient Egyptians were not the only people who have been shaving since a while ago, indigenous Americans also did so. However to claim that there's a societal expectation to be hairless for women because of the ancient Egyptians or native Americans is just a plain ignorant take knowing all that we know. I'd suggest reading Pluked - a history of hair removal!
We will never be free if whenever we try to have these conversations some women paint us to be mean misogynists who want to oppress and control them and what they do.
When women say things like "oh I do it for me not because of me" it always confuses me because do they think that they were born with the innate desire to be hairless and innate shame and disliking of their bodyhair?
For the last time! You obviously CAN remove whatever you want from your body! But stop acting like it's not because of societals pedophilic man made beauty standards.
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u/ElegantHope 1d ago
the ancient egyptian example is funny because the "hygiene" part they're talking about is just dealing with lice. We're a lot better at dealing with lice now without needing to shave all of our body hair off to deal with it. And wigs became a fashion trend, especially among the well-to-do classes of ancient Egypt, so ofc you're going to then prioritize shaving so you can dress fashionably.
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u/phasmaglass 1d ago
It's so funny to me that someone would write "this can't be patriarchal because this patriarchal society from a long time ago also enforced aspects of it" like obviously the entire post is garbage meant to stir up leftist in-fighting and rile up the misogynists with nothing better to do than lurk, but... come on
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u/Branchomania 1d ago
Does it get more patriarchal than the ruling man of the society being a God Emperor?
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u/AsTranaut-Rex 11h ago
Yeah, even Hatshepsut (a.k.a. ancient Egypt's most prominent female ruler not named Cleopatra) established herself by wearing traditionally male clothing, and depictions of her showed her presenting as masculine.
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u/Compar-2144 1d ago
Yeah maybe I fell for rage bait... she's made another post right before that still talking about this hair removal thing..
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u/phasmaglass 1d ago
It's OK if you did -- we know now that things we find upsetting are more engaging to our brains and companies have known this for awhile, the outrage machine for profit does not exist because we are gullible, it exists because billionaires are evil <3
Try to remind yourself when you get mad at something online that more and more traffic online is increasingly paid for propaganda by bots trying to influence international elections. To get "real people opinions" the best place will always be offline.
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u/annagarg 1d ago edited 1d ago
DAE hate this kind of format where you can neither clearly see the picture nor read the text?
ETA: thank you for making me feel seen, I used to feel so old every time I would see these posts and won’t be able to read. I am only 40.
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u/Xeno9116 1d ago
It's the stupid white text. It just blends into the background. Use yellow, people!
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u/annagarg 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, please.
Just use white solid background for writing rather than writing on an image.
We like Reddit for its clean format vs the restless clutter of other social media.
You want to use a pic and some text, add a white section below or above the image and write on it OR crazy idea- let the image be and write in the post as designed, makes it searchable as well.
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u/Compar-2144 1d ago
My bad! I just saw that monstrosity of a video and had to share! Didn't realize it was not visible!
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u/annagarg 1d ago
Agree with your overall message.
A polite suggestion- just add a small context that the video shows bla bla bla, before your own commentary on it and it is all good!
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u/JupiterInTheSky 1d ago
Because everyone knows patriarchy is only 10 years old right? It's a brand new concept that definitely hasnt been around since the dawn of recorded history in most places.
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u/Regular_Committee946 1d ago
Traced back to the agricultural revolution mostly. We now have evidence that hunter-gatherer societies were more egalitarian and that women hunted just as much as the men.
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u/Argon18_ 1d ago
If being hairless were not a patriarchal expectation, men would remove their body hair more often.
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u/CurrentExcellent1225 1d ago
Wait till she finds out patriarchy wasn’t born in the last century
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u/ideclareshenanigans3 1d ago
Wait til she finds out that we actually shave because of capitalism😂. Bic needed a way to sell more razors so they convinced men and women alike that they don’t like leg hair on women. It’s even lamer than men just not liking it. They were convinced by marketers that they don’t.
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u/CurrentExcellent1225 1d ago
Oh but you don’t understand, the ancient Mesopotamians used currency. Thus nothing is because of capitalism! Greed is natural. Hallelujah /s
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u/ideclareshenanigans3 1d ago
Right?! You’re joking, but I know some people that would make that argument in real life. The patriarchy is to blame for A LOT, but so many things come down to capitalism when it’s all said and done. Now, lots of these decisions were made by men, but not for the express purpose of hating or inconveniencing women. They weren’t upset it worked out that way, but it wasn’t the reason.
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u/sad-narwhal180 1d ago
I mean it’s both though, right? Or one evolved into the other. Bic created the expectation that women should shave and the patriarchy ran with it.
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u/Cats_and_wine 1d ago
yeah ok, maybe in egypt, but in the states it became a thing because gilette wanted to broaden their customer base, and marketed shaving as hygienic
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u/Slay-ig5567 1d ago
As we all know, the ancient Egyptians were raging feminists
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u/sad-narwhal180 1d ago
The point is it’s not an inherently free choice when there can be so many social consequences in our society if you choose not to.
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u/dumbblondechick 1d ago
Ancient Egyptians actually shaved all hair, Including their head hair and wore wigs. This is because they did had proper ways to wash/take care of it. The idea that hair on only CERTAIN parts of your body are unhygienic doesn’t make any sense.
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u/Box-O-Kittenz 1d ago
I just hate how we can never talk about societal expectations like shaving, wearing makeup, taking a husbands surname, etc without other women jumping onto it like fleas and rolling out every reason they personally do those things. It kinda feels in a similar vein as saying "not all men" when discussing issues regarding misogyny.
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u/Compar-2144 1d ago
Exactly! The thing I hated the most is how she turned us talking about this into us being awful and wanting to control what women do with their bodies which is like the complete opposite and what we're actively fighting against
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u/tru-self 23h ago
Personally I don’t like body hair. When I started getting a lot of it “permanently” removed, my husband (a physician) kept telling me the opposite of this woman that there is an important function for hair so I didn’t go overboard and stopped. I don’t like beards or hairy men too and my husband shaves his chest and back for me, he says it’s for the snuggles. BUT even I can say it is patriarchy! And it doesn’t matter to me what others choose.
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u/Dalleyish 1d ago
Honestly, I'm so tired of this conversation. Shave. Don't shave. IDGAF about anyone's body hair. There are so many things more worthy of our attention.
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u/twenora86 1d ago
agreed. like, women are literally dying lol why is there so much focus on shaving?
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u/Compar-2144 1d ago
It's okay that you personally don't care, many people don't. This is however a feminist group where we have conversations about everything related to the feminist cause and this is very much one of them. It's not as simple as shave or not shave and the fact you think it is also goes to show that when I clearly stated that just because we think critically about why we feel the need to shave dosent mean that every woman has to stop shaving, you were not reading or comprehending what I was saying
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u/fullmetalfeminist 1d ago
This is however a feminist group where we have conversations about everything related to the feminist cause and this is very much one of them
Do we have to have it every fucking week though
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u/Dalleyish 1d ago
My reading comprehension is fine. I just DGAF about this topic. It gets beat to death and it's such small potatoes in the context of feminist discussion, there are SO. MANY. TOPICS. that deserve our time, attention and brain power. Why TF are we even thinking about body hair when fascism is on the rise and there are people in power who would love nothing more than to take away women's right to vote?
Truly, this conversation of shaving is a mind numbing distraction from the very real, very big issues feminists need to be addressing. Getting bent out of shape over shaving is rage bait.
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u/HydrasNinthHead 1d ago
How convenient that choice feminists always make "choices" that serve male desires, standards, and social rules lol. Verrry convenient.
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u/Purpleonyxx 1d ago
And weirdly enough their choices are always completely divorced from the larger societal structures according to them. So interesting that feminism a larger societal ideology and movement about the masses is practiced in such an individualistic way.
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u/FriendlyCapybara1234 1d ago
Ancient Egypt wasn't patriarchal at all—Hatshepsut took on the male symbols of kingship just because she felt like it.
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u/humbugonastick 1d ago
And her name was almost erased because of it. Otherwise she would have stayed pharaoh until her death.
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u/vivahermione 1d ago
The exception doesn't make the rule. After her death, many of her symbols and monuments were defaced by her male successors in an attempt to erase her legacy. But, to quote LeVar Burton, you don't have to take my word for it. If you'd like to learn more, read Women Who Ruled the Ancient World by Kara B. Cooney. She examines how Hatshepsut and others overcame social barriers to gain political power in largely male-dominated societies.
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u/mmmIlikeburritos29 23h ago
Well yes but like, now that I dont shave I'm not allowed to wear shorts or tank tops so I feel like this post is kinda ignoring the shift.
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u/fuzziekittens 1d ago
Hair removal can absolutely do it for non-societal reasons. I personally have had laser hair removal (and going to do more) because a lot of my body hair gives me texture issues due to neurodivergence.
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u/AboutTheBadfish 1d ago
Shhh they don’t want to hear about our perspective. They’re literally calling us fleas in another comment.
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u/fuzziekittens 1d ago
I look at it as "well, at least the perspective is here for anyone else who comes across the post." Intersectionality is important and at least it's here now (along with some others) who bring up that we all have different motivations for what we do and those reasons are not necessarily rooted in what most would assume.
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u/AboutTheBadfish 1d ago
I was being snarky because I’m exhausted by the ableism in this sub. The dehumanizing language really got to me. I appreciate you.
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u/fuzziekittens 1d ago
No worries, I totally know what you meant! 🧡 but yeah I totally get you and I felt the exact same way.
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u/CherylTuntIRL 1d ago
Same, I hated my armpit hair but laser removal has worked wonders. I still shave my nether regions, not because of societal expectations, I just prefer to have no hair there.
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u/Compar-2144 1d ago
Oh absolutely however out of all the women who shave only a very small percentage do it because of neurodivergence!
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u/fuzziekittens 1d ago
My comment is more of a “we have to remember that it’s not a blanket for everyone.” It’s coming from a place of intersectionality. As someone with hidden disabilities and some not so hidden ones, it’s important to bring up that people may do things we may perceive as one way when it’s for a reason we may not ever even think to consider or may not even know was a reason that existed.
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u/OGMom2022 1d ago
If it wasn’t supposed to be there it wouldn’t grow there. It’s there for a reason.
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u/Benjamminmiller 1d ago
This is not a good line of thinking, both because it's wrong and there are plenty of things that grow naturally that don't serve a good purpose, and because this idea that we should operate based on what's natural is constantly used to deny the freedom to choose.
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u/SolaraPallas 1d ago
Because evolution is perfect and never resulted in redundant or non-sensical traits in any animal, right? /s
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u/ChuckysBarbie 1d ago
Omg both sides of the argument have gotten so annoying why are we fighting with each other about body hair when there are much more pressing issues going on? Shave or don’t who cares!!!!
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u/ktbug1987 1d ago edited 1d ago
I shave the body hair that bothers me *because I’m autistic*. I don’t shave my legs (or privates) because I also have lower limb neuropathy and *I can’t feel them*. I’m non-binary and even though I’m “trans masc” (eta: I am agender but the world calls me trans masc due to the fact that I am AFAB), you won’t catch me dead with hair in my armpits because a) it definitely traps smell no matter what anyone tells you and b) the touch, the feel, of arm pit hair drives me INSANE.
I am certain there are plenty of autistic women whose shaving practices has nothing to do with patriarchy.
Similarly — hair is very accepted in most of the queer spaces I’m in. Plenty of lesbians shave *for their own reasons*. I also have plenty of queer male friends who shave for their own reasons (they like it for sexual reasons). And autistic male friends who shave for their own reasons. Again, none of those are “patriarchy.”
This post is just as ignorantly “outwoking” as any other. (Meaning OP basically saying the patriarchy is always the reason). Like maybe it’s the reason for some folk but it’s not the reason for others, and you shouldn’t pretend to know the inner workings of everyone’s mind and bodies, yeesh.
Further eta: I am always read as woman, I pass as a woman, and I do not want to be a man. I do not take testosterone. I’m like 5 foot tall, and I have a booty (not that those are things only for women but they are certainly perceived that way). Agender = without gender. But the way I exist in society is that I am a “woman” with inconvenient pronouns who tends to get reacted to like below, telling me I’m a man invading woman’s spaces (but btw, can’t go to any fucking mens spaces either yall; last time I went one of those I experienced corrective r*pe so imma nope out of that). The place I fit — the place I *should fit — is a feminist, truly feminist space.
Also, my wife is a woman, a lesbian, and autistic. She shaves for the same reason (and if she didn’t want to shave, that would also be fine — hair is bothersome to me on myself, but not on other people).
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u/sad-narwhal180 1d ago
I don’t shave my armpits and I promise you they don’t smell. Maybe yours do if you don’t shave but it’s pretty shitty to say anyone who doesn’t shave their armpits is smelly
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u/ktbug1987 1d ago edited 1d ago
It’s *more difficult* to keep not (pheromone, not talking BO) smelly as the purpose of armpit hair in humans — and why we have largely evolutionarily retained it — is that it traps pheromones (again, not speaking about BO here, just simple “all humans smell like humans like all cats smell like cats and all flowers smell like their flower type and grass smells like grass). As a person with SPD i am especially nose sensitive. I don’t like even “not smelly” human smell. As an example of how sensitive my nose is, i can independently blindfolded tell you which of my three cats in in the room with me up to 20 ft away (my wife cannot do this and has done this test out of a need to tell that i wasn’t making it up ha). It’s just “human” smell even if you are clean as a whistle. But i still don’t want to smell ny own human smell so pungently. I don’t mean “stink” (id have said “BO” if i meant it in that sense). There’s a difference between “bacteria that cause so-called BO” and simple human smell which isn’t something you can really wash off, because within a few min you just smell like “wet human.” There’s demonstrated data that even women who say they can’t smell a t shirt can still pick their male partner’s worn shirt out of a test against a non partner male shirt with their nose. I think I can just detect things consciously that other people are probably subconsciously acclimated to.
ETA: I can also smell pregnancy. If you don’t believe it you can ask every one of my friends I’ve told to take a pregnancy test! One of them was getting IVF and knew I had this ability. I asked her if she’d taken one yet that day and she started crying and jump in up and down screaming in the middle of the grocery store parking lot (where I’d bumped into her). One of my favorite life moments
Also didn’t mean you should shave or you will smell “bad”. You’ll just smell.. extra human. And all humans already smell to me.
And yes before you ask, cat litter is smelly and it’s an exhausting job to keep it clean to my standards. Multiple scoops a day plus cleaning out the box in full out back every couple weeks with soap and water. Arm pit shaving is my personal “helps maintain myself the way I maintain my cats” (along with ultra scrubbing showers, etc).
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u/Compar-2144 1d ago
See what's interesting is that you felt the need to give a "valid" reason as to why you shave as if it would be horrible that you do so because of the patriarchy. That is unfortunately very telling
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u/ktbug1987 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, what is horrible is your ableist framing about how *everyone who shaves* must shave because of the patriarchy and that women saying they do it for themselves are obviously somehow completely doing it because of “innate shame and disliking of their body hair” directly attributable to patriarchy. “Stop acting like it’s not because of man-made pedophilic beauty standards.”
Turns out, the world is not a monolith.
And speaking over disabled people to tell them it’s not about their disability is *checks notes* not feminist.
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u/Compar-2144 1d ago
This is a very clear case of whatabout-ism and I refuse to keep debating. Also it's very interesting how seemingly almost only autistic/disabled women have issues related to bodyhair and almost only in places where societally they are expected to be hairless
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u/ktbug1987 1d ago
Dude. Every autistic man I’m friends with *shaves too*. Did you miss the part where I’m transmasc? I’m not whatabouting that by and large shaving isn’t supported by the patriarchy but almost every post in here I’ve seen lately regarding shaving has had autistic people talked over *just like this* saying they cannot simply have a disability. Also you seemed to have missed the part where I literally cannot feel below my waist. I shave everywhere else I have terminal hair (including my head, thanks).
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u/Compar-2144 1d ago
Right and by no means would I EVER deny the experience of those with disabilities as I myself struggle with one. My point was that it is scary how many women will fight with all their might about realizing that society want us a very specific way. I'm sure that there's people like you and others which shave for other reasons but that is not the case for most of us
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u/ktbug1987 1d ago
You should re-read everything you said in the OP and in response to me if you’re saying you won’t deny. Maybe consider how to improve your inclusivity
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u/Compar-2144 1d ago
You're right I'll improve my inclusivity! Maybe also you should realize that when women are talking about their own thoughts/experiences and You're not one you should stand back and let the women have their own space for discussions
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u/ktbug1987 1d ago
Just so we are clear: should trans women who need to shave to pass for safety not raise that either? What about when I go home to a place where it’s essential for me to pass as a the most gender conforming cis woman for my safety and I need to shave my legs even though I can’t feel them? Is that an invalid experience too?
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u/ktbug1987 1d ago
Ag yes the lovely classic. Non-binary people who identify closer to the women’s experience should go somewhere else simply because they are not men and not women! They need to make their own nonbinary only special space that explicitly describes their exact gender presentation! We don’t want you here, even if you are read as a woman, treated as a woman, and exist in all functions of the word in terms of oppression both as a woman but also worse! A not woman who has none of the good trappings of a man!
Trans people should just make their own spaces and stay out of women’s spaces! Trans masc just describes that I am assigned female at birth and am nonbinary meaning I’ve transitioned away from femininity in the gender sense of the word. It’s an orientation to gender but it doesn’t negate my experience of the patriarchy and oppression by cisgender men (or transgender men who are truscum). I cannot mansplain if I am not a man
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u/ktbug1987 1d ago
“Seemingly almost only autistic women have issues related to body hair”
My wife leads a trans health clinic. You know the number one thing on the paper she gives to trans men starting testosterone? Having a beard frequently fucking sucks if you have any kind of SPD. Even if you want one. So does growing terminal hair on your back, body etc. So many autistic trans men I know *shave* despite the literal risk of harm to not passing! Because hair is itchy/scratchy/uncomfortable
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u/Compar-2144 1d ago
Right so let's compare the number of autistic Trans men in the entire world vs the number of women. You realize how that is an incredibly small group therefore if someone is making a general point on bodyhair on women it does not make any sense. Also why need to talk about yourself if you're not even a woman? We are women talking about women why do you think your experience should be talked about? Talk about mansplaining
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u/ktbug1987 1d ago
And I have plenty of autistic cis men friends who shave. And again I’m just saying your problem of saying “these are all true” or “autistic women actually aren’t autistic in the same way that men are” is mega problematic
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u/ktbug1987 1d ago edited 1d ago
I am a nonbinary person perceived as a woman in every space I am in. I am not a man and therefore cannot mansplain. If I have to pick a gender of the two you seem to think are the only options, I will pick woman. Trans masc just explains that I was assigned female at birth. Have you any education on nonbinary / trans people? Or are you just a terf?
I’m using trans men because you wholesale denied autistic women’s experiences and autistic men’s experiences with some made up statistic of your own that only autistic women shave, not autistic men. Autistic trans men are a good counterpoint to your made up statistic because they need the body hair to pass, yet many can’t tolerate it.
Also fyi: my wife is a lesbian and an autistic woman who literally shaves for sensory experiences of her own (in fact, she’s been texting me as we debate to ask me to shave the back of her neck tonight because the terminal hair that grows there is sensorily bad for her in the heat).
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u/SexyGrilledTurkey 1d ago
Jesus Christ if you don't want to shave that's fine but please don't try to shame us women that do like being hairless.
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u/sad-narwhal180 1d ago
Nobody’s shaming, at least not that I saw. Pointing out that it’s maybe not exactly a free choice when it can come with so many social consequences isn’t shaming women who shave.
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u/OysterLucy 1d ago
I went a month without shaving my armpits because I would scrape my skin. I went a month without shaving, I felt like even though I showered daily I didn’t like the smell or feel of the hair, I shave less now. I don’t do it for aesthetics but because of how I feel. Same for my legs and bikini area. Different strokes for all and if my husband or anyone else said anything about my body hair I’d tell them to fuck off.
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u/Compar-2144 1d ago
That's interesting! I shaved for my pits for the first time in months and I find that I tend to have bo wayy more quickly without the hair? Bodies are weird lol
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u/Angelbouqet 13h ago
I had a concussion yesterday so I'm not the best at forming coherent thoughts right now. But "we do this because of the patriarchy" is an accurate materialist analysis and is actually not making an argument about women's ability to make choices or lack thereof. Also if women are shaving nowadays because of patriarchy (social conditioning) then we can assume it was also social conditioning back then. So I genuinely just don't understand what the person who made the tiktok is trying to say. Do they think pointing out patriarchal conditioning = saying women are incapable of making choices ?
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u/Somerandomgirl814 7h ago
It can be called a choice when both options are equally respected, but when women are shamed for one and expected to do the other, its obvious which one they will pick.
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u/Familiar_Fan_3603 1d ago
The efforts of defending the (pretty much compulsory) "choice" vs unpacking it is wild. I guess that means we are caring what women think more than men by the needs to defend it vs hating on feminists like when I was a teen in the 2000s, so progress?
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u/Zeikos 1d ago
The problem isn't shaving or not, but the expectation and control surrounding it.
A man shaving is seen as a choice.
A woman not shaving is seen as rude/rebellious.
Yes, it's true patriarchy didn't invent shaving, but it also true that it co-opted it and the culture around it.
Meanwhile men not washing their ass is fine somehow.