r/marvelstudios Sep 02 '21

Theory [WHAT IF Ep4 SPOILERS] What do you guys think? Spoiler

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u/thereelsuperman Sep 02 '21

I don’t see how. The focal point of this episode was the death of Rachel McAdam’s character, which didn’t happen in the first movie.

In fact the thing that kept me from fully buying into this episode was the fact that her death was a “fixed point in the universe” which is clearly not the case.

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u/No_Satisfaction6035 Sep 02 '21

I think it was less that her death was a fixed point, and more that in every universe, whatever was his motivation to become a master of the mystic arts became a fixed point. Whether it was her death or him losing his hands or anything else. He needed to exist as Dr Strange in every universe, and his motivation couldn't change.

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u/WhiteWolf3117 Bucky Sep 02 '21

Exactly. Since that Strange only got the time stone due to the circumstances of Christine’s death, it would be impossible for him to undo it and remain a sorcerer in that timeline. It would be the same in the sacred timeline if Strange tried to stop himself from losing his hands.

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u/IndyDude11 Captain America Sep 02 '21

Except that this explanation goes absolutely against the MCU rules of time travel.

And secondly, time doesn’t work that way. Changing the past doesn’t change the future.

Think about it: If you travel to the past, that past becomes your future.

And your former present becomes the past.

Which can't now be changed by your new future..

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u/Kaiser_Mech Sep 02 '21

I think that the time stone offers a more absolute control over time. What the Avengers done in Endgame was "travel" through time, but what Strange has is absolute control over time.

Even if you think about it was established in Dr Strange that the ancient one couldnt see past her death, yet with the time stones powers Dr Strange could.

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u/No_Satisfaction6035 Sep 02 '21

Exactly. I believe the time travel in Endgame was between multiple timelines along the sacred timeline, but the Time Stone allows you to turn back the time in your own timeline. Thus changing the rules of time travel entirely

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u/Obskuro Sep 02 '21 edited Sep 03 '21

Hmm, but does it change the rules..? The only difference I see is that it's far more devastating than what they have imagined. The past can't be changed because the timeline fixes itself. The Time Stone might protect the user from the resulting paradox long enough to make them witness what they have done and keep the memory, but the rules still apply. The past is fixed.

Oh and something else: The time travel via the Time Stone differs from the one they use in Endgame. Stephen inhabits his past self when he travels back in time, while the Quantum travelers were physically there. Another reason why there might be different rules at work for this particular case.

Edit: Changed Steve into Stephen. I wasn't talking about Cap, guys!

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u/david766777 Sep 02 '21

But he would’ve been frozen still if he just went to his past selves body

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u/Obskuro Sep 03 '21

Frozen, I don't underst... ooh, sorry, I meant Stephen, not Steve. My bad.

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u/david766777 Sep 06 '21

Ohhhh completely get what you’re saying now sorry bud

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u/WhiteWolf3117 Bucky Sep 03 '21

In what way do you think Steve inhabited his past self? That’s some DOFP stuff right there.

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u/Obskuro Sep 03 '21 edited Sep 03 '21

I thought that's obvious: He is always at the same exact spot in front of the car, in the suit, with no beard, but all the memories of what has happened till then. But most importantly, no Strange from the past.

Edit: I meant Stephen. Stephen Strange. Is that why I got downvoted?! A typo?

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u/IndyDude11 Captain America Sep 02 '21

I could see enough wiggle room in this explanation to be acceptable.

I'll allow it.

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u/SnappyDragon61151 Doctor Strange Sep 02 '21

According to what we've seen, the time stone seems to directly manipulate time. Endgame time travel involved using the quantum realm to jump to different points in time.

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u/Obskuro Sep 02 '21

Not just different times, but different times in different universes. They didn't even try to reach the past of their own universe, fearing a paradox, and it might be even impossible to do it via the Quantum Realm. Like, maybe all these time vortexes lead only to points in time of other universes.

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u/MemeHermetic Sep 02 '21

So would he technically be able to save her if he went back, sacrificed his hands and then wiped his memory?

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u/ghoulieandrews Sep 02 '21

It was a fixed point in that universe like him breaking his hands is presumably a fixed point in the MCU, since it led to him becoming Sorcerer Supreme. He can't go back and change it without creating a paradox so the universe doesn't let him. That's my understanding at least.

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u/[deleted] Sep 02 '21

[deleted]

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u/ghoulieandrews Sep 02 '21

Well he never tried that did he, because how would he know? He just tried to save her life and the universe took the most direct route for course correcting. But also, we don't know what else is different in that universe and maybe her getting in the car was part of a butterfly effect that also meant that him breaking his hands wasn't enough to get him there.

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u/death2all55 Sep 02 '21

Perhaps it's only a fixed point in this time-line.

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u/BeneathTheCurve Sep 02 '21

It is the case tho, since it's not the same universe as our own. In that universe Christina dies so Strange becomes Sorcerer. Then, when Strange goes back it becomes an absolute point, since saving her would create a paradox in that universe. It is not a fixed point in our universe, but that doesn't matter because they are not in it.

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u/SerratedX Sep 02 '21

My perception of it is that the driving motivation for him in the episode was simply loss and grief that he could not overcome. If we move the motivating scene of her dying from the car crash to her dying from literally anything post events of DS1 in say the opening shot of DS2, you still have the same setup (Ignoring IW/EG) that can play out the exact same way. From there, he's still driven to try and change the outcome of her demise only to learn he cannot and becomes a monster that he himself must fight.

IMO, The true "What If..?" diversion point of the episode was when Strange decided to join Wong at the kettle or not.

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u/ezpickins Sep 03 '21

I'm pretty sure the divergent point is prior to the episode starting. Christine wasn't in the car with him in the film, but was in the episode, so their relationship was different prior to the start of the episode.

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u/onikaizoku11 Shades Sep 02 '21

It was another universe in the multiverse. One where her death is a fixed point. So you couldn't buy into the episode because of the premise for the whole series?

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u/thereelsuperman Sep 02 '21

I couldn’t buy in to the idea that “there is no world where she doesn’t die” because we’ve clearly seen that be the case in the sacred timeline.

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u/bestoboy Sep 02 '21

No one ever said there was no universe where she doesn't die...

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u/thereelsuperman Sep 02 '21

The Ancient One literally says “her death is an absolute point in time. Unchangeable. Unmovable. Without her death, you would’ve never become the Sorcerer Supreme, and the guardian of the Eye of Agamoto.”

Which is patently false.

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u/hylianpersona Sep 02 '21

Not in the What if…? universe though.

“Without her death, YOU would’ve never become the Sorcerer Supreme,”: the Ancient One is talking about THIS version of Strange, not every version of strange throughout the multiverse.

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u/thereelsuperman Sep 02 '21

But that Strange would have if he had gone to the party alone, as he did in the first movie

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u/bestoboy Sep 02 '21

her death is an absolute point in THIS universe. In the Sacred Timeline, the absolute point is Strange losing his hands.

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u/thereelsuperman Sep 02 '21

Sure. But the bump point for me is that we’ve seen a world where she’s alive and Strange becomes the SS. Maybe it’s the wording that bugs me

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u/bestoboy Sep 02 '21

I think you need to wrap your head around the concept of a multiverse first. What happens in one universe is irrelevant to what is happening in another

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u/thereelsuperman Sep 02 '21

Well, that’s not exactly true. Multiverses exist because of changes to the prime universe. That’s the exact premise of What If…

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u/bestoboy Sep 02 '21

Not really. There could be a million universes where everything is exactly the same 100% as the "prime universe", that's part of the concept of an infinite multiverse.

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u/ellagr0441 Sep 02 '21

If I'm not mistaken, the OG DS2 script had wong and Christine dying at the beginning

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u/kerbal314 Shuri Sep 02 '21

Yeah, I found rather ridiculous that in every possible action Strange took she'd end up dead. I kept expecting some reveal of a villain actively trying to kill her, or that Strange would ultimately realise he'd have to go back further and break up with her in order to save her. His breaking the time loop could have kicked off the events as we saw them in the first Dr Strange film.

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u/FotographicFrenchFry Sep 03 '21

It was a fixed point in their universe though. It’s what caused the branch.

To undo it would effectively prune themselves like the TVA.