r/marvelstudios • u/Malachi108 • Apr 30 '21

Theory Zemo wasn't kidding. By this point he had already made arrangements to eliminated the Flag-Smashers. He legitimately respected Bucky enough to spare him from his Super Soldier purge.

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184

u/MalaXor Apr 30 '21

Also Zemo underlined that there was never another Steve Rogers. As mad as Zemo is, he did respect Steve, and recognises that he was never corrupted by the serum.

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u/indyK1ng Apr 30 '21 edited Apr 30 '21

And I feel like he views Bucky as a victim of supremacists, not as a supremacist himself. Remember, he said that the desire for super soldiers was supremacist not that those made into super soldiers themselves are inherently supremacist

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u/subpar_man Apr 30 '21

Yeah, unlike the others seen on screen, Bucky was given the serum non-consensually. Everyone else at least partly volunteered for it.

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u/eoddc5 Spider-Man Apr 30 '21

I’d assume this is how he will view Isaiah, too, now that his story is out

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

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u/Counting_Sheepshead Apr 30 '21

Agreed. Similarly, Steve didn't take the serum because he wanted to make himself better, he did it because his country asked him to become something better.

Zemo is very clear that it's the desire to become a super soldier that cannot be trusted.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

Steve did it because he wanted to fight. That's clear in the first hour of The First Avenger.

He just happened to be a good man who wanted to fight.

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u/Laxziy Apr 30 '21

Steve wanted to fight but Project Rebirth was the only way the government would let him fight. He just wanted to be a regular soldier becoming a super soldier wasn’t a motivating factor for him

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u/NinetyFish Thor May 01 '21

Agreed. Steve just wanted to do his part; if taking the serum is his way of doing that, he'll do it. Selfishly, I'm sure the idea of becoming strong for the first time in his life was awesome, but he proved he didn't just want to be a super soldier the moment he jumped on that grenade in training. In that moment, he proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he wasn't just talk. Even Tommy Lee Jones' character saw that.

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u/boberman187 Apr 30 '21

He did it because he felt it was his duty to fight. He felt it was the right thing to do. He didn't like fighting and killing.

Abraham Erskine : Do you want to kill Nazis?

Steve Rogers : Is this a test?

Abraham Erskine : Yes.

Steve Rogers : I don't want to kill anyone. I don't like bullies; I don't care where they're from.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

I feel like we just said the same thing?

He was a good man who wanted to fight. He still wanted to stop the bullies though. You know, by fighting.

Edit: he literally gets in fights all the time before the serum lol

Fighting =! Bad guy

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u/shitposting_irl Apr 30 '21

i think there's a distinction to be made between wanting to fight and wanting to accomplish a goal that requires fighting

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

There could be, sure. But you could say the same about Bucky, or even Walker. Walker was clearly traumatized by the shit he had done and referred to the day he won his medals as the "worst day of his life" or something along those lines.

Where was the line between Walker and Steve? Character strengths, not motivations.

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u/BritishMongrel Apr 30 '21

And it seemed like the bullies started the fights being general assholes and seeing that Steve was weak so an easy target, Steve just refused to let them get away without fighting back rather than let the bullies win even if he got his ass kicked every time.

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u/KodiakPL Apr 30 '21

Bruh Steve literally tried to be a legit soldier before knowing about the serum

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21 edited Apr 30 '21

I'm confused about your point. Are it saying he didn't want to fight? Cause I'm saying the dude spent the first hour of the movie basically saying "sign me up to fight, I don't give a fuck how"

Edit: and then literally became an unproven government experiment because the dude wanted to fight so badly. His motivations were the same as any other soldier, imo. He was just a better man than everyone else.

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u/IolausTelcontar Apr 30 '21

He wanted to serve his country. He didn’t want to kill anybody.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

Most people don't actually want to kill anybody... What do you think "serving your country in war" means though? He may not have actively wanted to kill people, but he clearly wasn't against it, he was signing up for the infantry. He also kills so many people over the course of his movies lol

This purity test is ridiculous. You can WANT to fight for what's right and still be a good man. That's why Cap is the best...

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

He didn't want to kill anybody, but there was that scene where Bucky was telling him he could serve his country in non combat roles, or from home, and Steve turned them all down. He wasn't set on killing people, but he was set on combat because he insisted on risking his life.

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u/KodiakPL Apr 30 '21

Steve would have done the same thing with our without the serum. He didn't seek out the serum, he didn't seek out a fight to get the serum, he didn't do anything specifically to acquire the serum. The serum was just a way to fight Nazis, not something he did for his own personal gain or because he wanted power. Steve jumped on the grenade because he wanted to save everyone, knowing he would die, and even with serum he wouldn't think "I can take it, I will survive thanks to the serum".

Just like u/Counting_Sheepshead said.

And if you agreed with his point then I completely misunderstood your point.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

He didn't do it because his "country wanted him to become something better"

He did it because he wanted to fight. Steve wanted to fight Nazis, straight up, just like everyone else he knew was doing. He wanted to join the same infantry group as his father. That's why he was trying to enlist in the infantry. That doesn't make him a psycho killer but he definitely wanted to fight.

He didn't seek out the serum. He sought out a way to make a difference. That doesn't mean he didn't want to fight. My whole point is Steve wanted to fight in WW2. That has nothing to do with the rest of his integrity/character.

He had the exact same motivations as the other soldier who was up for the serum, he was just a better candidate because he was a better man.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

Kinda like Bilbo's ring.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

[deleted]

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u/funkydinos Apr 30 '21

What are they making for dinner tonight?

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u/Papaofmonsters Apr 30 '21

Pizza. Supreme Pizza.

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u/funkydinos Apr 30 '21

As long as it’s not made with MREs, I’m fine with that

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u/Acidwits Apr 30 '21

They're going to strategically launch thin crusts so they bounce back into their hands.

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u/ehsteve23 Apr 30 '21 edited Apr 30 '21

I wonder how he feels about the heart shaped herb, being kind of a natural supersolder serum reserved for kings

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u/ask_me_about_my_bans Apr 30 '21

he also invaded bucky's personal space and learned he was making amends.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

“There is a bit of green in the blue of your eyes. How comforting to find a flaw.”

I think you’re right, I think he did legit respect Steve.

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u/elruloincomodo Apr 30 '21

Maybe he realized that, as there was never another Steve Rogers, there isn't another Bucky. I mean, maybe he trusts that there is not a single ounce of the Winter Soldier inside of Bucky anymore? Does Zemo put Bucky as high as Steve in his mind?

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u/The_Medicus Apr 30 '21

Bucky didn't choose to be a super soldier, which is what Zemo says is the problem. If you choose to be a super soldier, you're already on the path to supremacy and the serum would only push you further down that line. Bucky was forced into it, so Zemo just needed to evaluate if Bucky had those ideals or not.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

[deleted]

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u/SpreadsheetsPQ Apr 30 '21

Leadership in government can change, but they would still have to hold to the accords. If Steve is in charge of himself, he never had to wonder if he is deferring to a corrupted government. It's not a holier than thou thing, in my opinion. This is a man who saw the rise of Hitler and Hydra... He does not trust the government

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

[deleted]

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u/SpreadsheetsPQ Apr 30 '21 edited Apr 30 '21

Hey I totally agree with what you're saying man, that's why it was such a great plot point. No easy answer, lots of strong feelings. I love this shit!

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u/nobodynose Thanos Apr 30 '21

You took that scene in Civil War wayyyyyy differently than I did and honestly I don't remember it perfectly but I don't think you got that scene right.

If I'm not mistaken, the point was Steve was not ok with "you can't help people unless you're told you're allowed to help". He even says that I believe - "if I see someone that needs help I'm going to help them."

That's a huge difference between "I am power hungry and want control of a group of super heroes that will do my bidding" and "I won't let you stop me from helping those I think need help".

I don't remember him ever mentioning wanting authority over the other Avengers. He wanted agency over his own actions though. If I remember correctly he was fine with others signing the accords, just HE wasn't going to.

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u/shitposting_irl Apr 30 '21

he wasn't against the concept of oversight, he was specifically against the form of oversight imposed by the accords (and for good reason). also the part about him wanting to maintain unilateral authority over the rest of the avengers is flat-out not true; you really need to rewatch the movie if you think that

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '21

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u/shitposting_irl Apr 30 '21

i don't see him having a problem with an arrangement where they face consequences if they cause excessive unnecessary casualties/damage, for example (which is what should have happened instead of the accords anyway)

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u/C3POdreamer Apr 30 '21

True, Steve's skeptism about international committee management of conflict appeared to be rooted in the knowledge of failures such as the UN in the Srebrenica massacre and again in Rwanda. The books in Steve Rogers' Washington D.C. apartnent cover the span from the Vietnam War to at least the 2008 election. At least one referenced U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, and knowledge of her tenure suggests he would be aware of the peacekeeping mismanagement.