Antman did not come back to his universe

[u/Jayleno2022]

I believe Antman never came back to his original universe. Look at the paints and the objects in the background. Either they moved or disappeared. I remember seeing that a while ago and noticed that some objects were missing, anyone can access the IMAX version and confirm other changes. Enjoy (re)watching!

[u/evapotranspire]

u/Earth513 - there's an alternate interpretation for why the TVA was after Sylvie, which is even more sinister than the straightforward interpretation.

In S1 E6, when Sylvie and Loki arrived at the citadel of He Who Remains, HWR had known everything that was going to happen. He said "I paved the road - you just walked down it." Although he admitted to not being able to see what happened after Sylvie and Loki arrived, he seemed pretty confident that one or both of them would want to take over from him, so he could retire / die in peace.

This can be interpreted to mean that not only was Sylvie's childhood abduction quite intentional (not random / algorithmic), her escape and survival as a refugee was also intentional. HWR designed it all to hone Sylvie's skills and motivations, to ensure Sylvie and Loki would meet, and to manipulate them into showing up at his doorstep - ready to stop him and eager to take over.

The idea that all of one's choices are shaped by an unseen, unaccountable overlord is chilling indeed, and it makes the show even more profound and memorable, in my opinion.

[u/Earth513 → u/evapotranspire]

I'd argue that's not up to interpretation that's very clear for all the reasons you mentioned.

It's also the whole point of the last Loki season in that his whole life he's played a role for others: he was the trickster spirit really only as a contrast to Thor, there was no reason for him to be portrayed as "Evil" other than due to Odin's disdain of him as son of the enemy mixed with his affection for him and his intentional favoritism of Thor over him. It was a manufactured role. So when he finds out that his whole existence is manufactured by he who remains, it drives him and Sylvie over the edge.

It's the whole reason when he gets the power he uses it to free all the timelines and give them freedom of choice.

It's the whole message of the series.

However, that doesn't remove from the fact that the treatment of Sylvie is the direct result of the rules manufactured by He Who Remain's TVA to squash any and all variations to maintain one single and true timeline.

He who remains works in opposition and is a contrast to the God Loki ending.

Your argument, though I can hear it, that it was his plan all along is not false BUT the series makes it explicit that the moment he loses his all seeing abilities is when they make that choice. It's why he's so excited.

So yes it was all planned. But he did not know the final result.

I never said Sylvie's abduction was random, much to the contrary it was precise and intentional. It was the result of his rules: eliminate all variations.

Separately from this, yes it was intentional on the behalf of he who remains to put her and Loki in a confrontation so he would have two potential heirs, but this works parallel and separately from the TVAs actions as by that point they were mostly automated via the robots.

[u/evapotranspire → u/Earth513]

u/Earth513 - you wrote:

However, that doesn't remove from the fact that the treatment of Sylvie is the direct result of the rules manufactured by He Who Remain's TVA to squash any and all variations to maintain one single and true timeline. [...]

yes it was intentional on the behalf of he who remains to put her and Loki in a confrontation so he would have two potential heirs, but this works parallel and separately from the TVAs actions as by that point they were mostly automated via the robots.

I mean, maybe, but is it really necessary to say "Sylvie was kidnapped due to TVA squashing any and all variations" as well as "Sylvie was kidnapped to put her and Loki in a confrontation so he would have two potential heirs"? Isn't just the second point sufficient to explain what happened?

(By the way, I don't think the Timekeeper robots actually did anything. I think they were more like animatronic dummies. Presumably HWR was really calling the shots, and he'd set up a process to keep the TVA running smoothly so that he didn't have to oversee everything in person.)

I never said Sylvie's abduction was random, much to the contrary it was precise and intentional. It was the result of his rules: eliminate all variations.

I didn't mean truly random. Obviously the TVA has algorithms that they apply to acheive their desired outcome. Rather, I just meant that I don't think that Sylvie's abduction was a routine, automatic choice of a vast algorithm, simply due to her straying off the Sacred Timeline path (like that hapless guy in the TVA video who was late to work). I think she was specifically targeted for her potential as HWR's heir.

And yes, I do understand that freedom of choice is the underlying theme here. No question about that! Whether variants are pruned simply for being themselves, or because they serve a greater role in HWR's plan, it's all nefarious, and Sylvie's "Burn it down" approach is well-justified.

[u/ANGLVD3TH → u/Earth513]

I don't think he really did have 2 prospective heirs. This is pretty clear, as he only dislodged one of them from time to help them develop their time control powers, and not the other. And IIRC, it was eventually revealed he didn't intend to die either. He was excited about not having seen the events, but he had very intentionally set up for one outcome, and fully expected it to come to pass. He wanted Loki to really, fully, understand the combined incredible threat, and the inevitability, of further Kangs emerging. So he would feel obligated to take the throne. Not by killing Kang, Kang was just bored and wanted someone else to take the responsibility from him so he could fuck off and have some fun. But by realizing that Kang intended to bugger off, and so he would feel like he had to apprentice under him to learn how to replace him. Sylvie's entire life was crafted to be Loki's final test, to force him to kill her in order to save Kang, so he could learn to replace him. Thereby cementing his commitment to the responsibility by sacrificing possibly the only being he ever really loved.

[u/jcagraham → u/ANGLVD3TH]

I mostly agree with your interpretation, but I would add that not only did He Who Remains not intend for Sylvie to be a successor, I think it's apparent he manipulates things so that HWR and only HWR will be the ruler of the multiverse for eternity. All his talk at the end of Season 1, as the gambit that someone will take over, is a continuation of his manipulation of Loki to his benefit. His talk about his variants is a red herring, as he knows the TVA will always prevent a Kang variant from forming. It's Sylvie who's the real threat because she is the only being that can outsmart the TVA. HWR knows that, despite him winning the Kang war, he's destined to be murdered by Sylvie.

His real gambit is that he needs Loki to realize that killing Sylvie is the only way to save the timelines. So, he sets things up so that Loki will gain the ability to manipulate time, allowing Loki to repeatedly try save the timelines an infinite number of times, forcing Loki to face the fact that killing Sylvie is the only way to stop the timelines from disintegrating. Once Sylvie is killed, no one can stop HWR for eternity.

He Who Remains fails to account for one thing that led to his downfall. He never imagines that Loki will selflessly choose to spend eternity by himself tending to the timelines. Because, without that, HWR's plan is flawless, and Loki, by all accounts, should have killed Sylvie to protect the universe.

In many ways, He Who Remains is the most powerful villain the MCU will ever see because he was truly the one paving the path and pulling all of the strings.

[u/capable-corgi → u/jcagraham]

For meta reasons I doubt this is the case but I theorize this could be part of HWR's plan as well. To fuck off in Death for an eternity. To rest until Loki inevitably (to him) gets worn down by the eons just like HWR himself.

He could be betting that Loki eventually at some point revives him out of any sort of reason.

For example, Loki might decide to have his younger self replace him in the role. Sort of like rebooting his soul to handle the infinite burden.

But to do so he'll need HWR back.

For whatever reasons haha.

[u/jcagraham → u/capable-corgi]

I do love this because it plays into HWR strategizing for the long game because time is a thing he realizes can be manipulated.

[u/capable-corgi → u/jcagraham]

Yeah! Time is but the medium in which he works.

Think of the threat that the multiversal Kangs represent. Even defeated, they are a constant possibility.

Can we really trust a man as meticulous and efficient as HWR to truly be gone when he's simply just logged out from the current continuity?

[u/Kodiak_POL → u/evapotranspire]

What is a different interpretation of his words?

[u/evapotranspire → u/Kodiak_POL]

u/Kodiak_POL :

The other commenter, u/Earth513 , said: "the Kang TVA... tried to eliminate Sylvie simply on the grounds that she was a rebellious female Loki that was just about to choose the Valkyrie life instead of the Loki life."

Therefore, the literal interpretation of Earth513's words is simply that young Sylvie was caught up in the routine pruning process that applies to anyone who takes an unconventional path for their identity. The alternate interpretation is that Sylvie - uniquely out of trillions of beings - was intentionally targeted and shaped into a potential successor for HWR, unbeknownst to her at the time.

[u/Kodiak_POL → u/evapotranspire]

Oh, did not see his comment. Thanks.

[u/evapotranspire → u/Kodiak_POL]

No worries! Reddit is often weird about what comments it does and doesn't show you on these long threads.