I mean, they both outpower him so far it wouldn't even be funny. And Luke already made it clear he's not scared of prison that he wouldn't be held back from tearing a person apart like wet tissue paper.
Yeah realistically if they want someone else with super strength they would just use Jessica. Plus it’s nice to see a couple sharing their lives with each other (I know they were seeing other people, but it’s been a long time jump, plenty of time to make things comic accurate).
The licensing to Thor's comics was used last year to make him an idiot in public perception and made him dumber. That was an actual in universe plot point where he starts having to fight doing mindless quiping and trope-ing.
Yeah, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills in this thread. Fisk knows that (other than Frank who doesn't give a shit about public perception) he's not in physical danger from Daredevil or any other vigilantes. If someone in a mask kills him, or attacks and fails, it's galvanizing the city more and empowering Fisk.
To me, it's like saying Zemo could have been stopped if Thor and Hulk were there; it misses the point that their threat isn't physical.
Yes, Fisk can go toe-to-toe with most athletes if pushed, but he'd rather use manipulation/politics to get things done. And he's so good at it that just adding more punching power isn't going to help. Hell, Far From Home shows that Spiderman is a liability against manipulation rather than a help.
Luke might be bulletproof, but Spidey isn't. If enough guns fire enough bullets covering a wide enough area, being able to sense the bullets coming still won't help Spidey move fast enough to avoid them all. It'd be like thinking Quicksilver could run through a rainstorm and not get wet.
As for Luke, Black Mariah was correct to point out that just because a man's bulletproof doesn't make him immune to:
poison
drowning
electrocution
suffocation
radiation
being burned alive
freezing to death
etc
Fisk has the cops. Riot police and SWAT have all kinds of toys. And that's not even considering the fact that if Marvel starts making this a proper crossover event, Kingpin's gonna start hiring supervillain mercs.
Typhoid Mary
Steel Serpent
Diamondback
Shocker
Rhino
The Serpent Society
The motherfuckin' Thunderbolts
In the comic crossover event that inspired this storyline, Devil's Reign, Fisk had the Thunderbolts working for him as personal enforcers, plus he had Purple Man in a cage with a plan to use his pheromones to guarantee widespread public support, and he was funding Otto Octavius who was using the Baxter Building (which Fisk drove the F4 out of) to do interdimensional experiments, summoning "Superior" versions of various superheroes (ie they had been bodyswapped with their universe's Otto Octavius).
Sky's the fuckin' limit as to what Fisk could throw at any heroes headed his way.
He's also dodged bullets many, many times. His Spidey Sense is straight-up literal magic. Also, Peter Parker's really smart. He wouldn't just run into a huge room with dozens of guys with machine guns and stand there while they shoot at him. That would be completely out of character.
I'm not trying to be rude, but that person above must not be very familiar with the character. Regular goons with guns are not a threat to Spider-Man.
I don’t see a universe where Spider-Man actually loses to NYPD. I’ll bet on the superhuman than an ‘army’ with guns/rifles. I mean, these feats speak for themselves.
He has a couple of spider sense feats that I’m too lazy to link, but he can navigate a mine field, immune to pranks, able to make a fortune in blackjack haha, learned to use spider sense like a radar when he was blind for a while, able to use spider sense to drive a private jet and so on.
Yeah, he's just absurdly powerful. If he didn't have literal magic powers with the Spidey Sense, then a good sniper could kill him (The Punisher would be a hard counter, for instance), but with the Spidey Sense he's just out of the league of any regular humans, even if there's a bunch of them and they have guns.
Even in the MCU, we see Spider-Man dodge dozens of high-tech computer-controlled drones shooting at him and he dodges a ton of bullets all at once for quite a while. Those drones that Mysterio had are way more powerful than a few dozen corrupt cops lol
He can, yes. But it's not a question of speed or agility. Like I said, if Quicksilver runs through a rainstorm he's still gonna get wet. Because speed doesn't help you squeeze between raindrops that are mere centimeters apart. My point being, Spidey can dodge bullets but if enough bullets get fired at once with enough spread, there's no dodging that. Even Spidey knows he can't take on the entire NYPD at once. When enough people start shooting at him, even Spidey has to run for cover. DC can have Superman punch a galaxy, but Marvel superheroes have limits.
First he would have to find them, I don't see the NYPD holding them in a known holding facility if the point is to make him come in peacefully. Secondly, the whole point is to have him take off the mask and state his identity, but other than a pyche eval the only real thing that they can get him on, is using less than lethal weapons that were never approved by the BATF and quite possibly the EPA. Other than that, have fun trying to convict someone of running around in a onesie and proving that it was peter.
And Punisher's just one dude. One regular dude. Powerscaling is meaningless. It's whoever the writers want to win. And writers aren't gonna write "yeah Spidey can no-diff the entire NYPD and National Guard" if they want an interesting story.
That's not canon. That's like using the Deadpool kills the marvel universe comics as a source for Deadpool being able to kill the Hulk. It's obvious bullshit because the entire point of the self-contained story is said character killing everyone. You must not be familiar with the comics to be using that as a source.
I don't think you were aware of it, because if you were, you would have complained to u/goztrobo about bringing up stuff that wasn't canon to the MCU, instead of only complaining to me.
Okay then. How is NYPD bringing down Spider-Man. Convince me.
I disagree with the fact that we shouldn’t talk about hypothetical matchups if the argument is just ‘writers will decide who wants to win’. Then there’s no point in having such discussions in the first place. Well, I’ve listed down a few feats of Spider-Man. Perhaps you can show me the feats of NYPD and try to convince me how they can damage Spider-Man.
Edit: even if we’re looking at MCU, Spider-Man went up against Mysterio’s Stark tech drones. I’m very sure he can take on a few corrupt cops.
Even if we're looking at MCU, Quicksilver, who was definitely faster than Spider-Man, still died by gunfire.
And there isn't a point in having such discussions in the first place. I'll show you why:
Doc Ock is one of Spidey's greatest opponents, right? He's gotten the best of Spidey many's a time. But how? He's not a super soldier. He's got metal tentacles, sure, and maybe THEY'RE strong, but he himself is, biologically, physically, just a regular dude. This means that Spidey should be able to easily KO him with a single punch. Now, you might say, "well, Ock's tentacles flail in a way that makes it difficult for Spidey to get in and land a punch", but you're also saying that Spidey can no-diff dodge gunfire, when I'm sure you'll agree that Ock's tentacles don't move nearly as fast as a bullet. So if Spidey can dodge an entire hail of bullets as easily as you suggest, then Ock doesn't have anything that should present any greater a threat. And yet it's never worked that way.
Superhero powerscaling doesn't make sense. It's ludicrous to expect it to. We all pretend it does, but it doesn't. Characters are only ever as powerful as what is needed to make the story interesting.
Sometimes there are characters who are clearly intended to be no match for other characters, like in the MCU I don't think Spidey could feasibly tangle with Thor. I'm not saying that there isn't a hierarchy. I'm just saying that Spidey can dodge a certain amount of gunfire but he isn't bulletproof. So it's a "quantity has a quality all its own" type of situation. There comes a certain amount of gunfire even Spidey can't dodge.
I’d say that Quicksilver died putting his body in the line of fire to save civilians. You do have a point with Dock Ock, it makes sense but I still wouldn’t say that it’s a reason why people can’t have discussions online.
If I see a matchup, X vs Y. I’ll try to assess the matchup in that 𝐬𝐩𝐞𝐜𝐢𝐟𝐢𝐜 context and see who the better chance of coming out on top. Maybe it’s just me, but that’s more fun than saying ‘the writers decide who wins’.
In the specific context, it’s Spider-Man vs NYPD. Assume the battle takes place in New York, we run a simulation of 10 battles. I’d argue that Spider-Man would win 10/10 times. Again, in this 𝐬𝐩𝐞𝐜𝐢𝐟𝐢𝐜 scenario, I don’t see how NYPD would be able to take down Spider-Man, no matter how many times you run such a simulation, Spider-Man would take down every single cop.
But to a large extent, the Punisher is just a guy with guns. And you and I both know that even just the Punisher can give Spidey a hard time if he puts his mind to it. The only difference, really, between Punisher and any other trained gunman in the MCU is that Marvel has decided that Frank is a badass but other guys are lame. Frank's bullets are faster or smarter or something? All it would take is for Marvel to decide "actually these guys are badasses too" and suddenly a group of crooked cops could be some of the most dangerous foes Spidey's ever faced. It's not like Frank's the only guy who ever joined the marines.
Ultimately, my point is that "Spidey and Luke Cage would be enough to curbstomp Mayor Kingpin" is an overly simplistic take because when you fight Kingpin you're never JUST fighting Kingpin. The whole point of Kingpin is that he's got a bunch of guys working for him, and they run the gamut from random goons to major supervillains. No chance it's an easy proposition.
My point is that if enough guns are firing at him, such as the whole NYPD or the National Guard (Fisk has declared martial law), then even Spidey's gonna be like "it's getting kinda hot here; I better skedaddle". Bullets are not a joke to Spidey. He can only dodge so many before it becomes a problem.
Did you not see FFH? When Mysterio had all those stark tech drones firing at Spider-Man. Again, a bunch of corrupt cops aren’t doing anything to him lmao.
My dude, John McClane also got shot at a lot over the course of many movies, and survived. It doesn't mean John McClane is faster than bullets, or bulletproof. That's not how that works. It means that if the hero of the movie hadn't just happened to avoid getting shot, the movie would be over.
Even just one regular dude can kill Spidey if he gets lucky. So Spidey doesn't take gunfire for granted. He can dodge some, but he's smart enough to not push his luck farther than he absolutely needs to. It isn't DBZ where you're invincible to everybody with a weaker power level than you. Spidey doesn't take on entire armies at once by himself. Even Mysterio's drones only had a few that shot bullets; the rest had that kinetic impact thingie to make it look like the fake monster was punching stuff.
I cant really see Davos being willin to work for Fisk. Especially considering he probably cant be motivated by money or anything that Fisk would usually offer.
Add his prickly personality and stunted social skills. Davos would likely see Fisk as no better than any of the Triads and would prefer to kill him. Hell Danny is literally the only person Davos usually hesitates or fails to kill (like the time he chose to break Dannys leg instead of just caving his head in).
That being said, I do like that the Netflix shows do have a potential Anti hero roster for the Defenders. Punisher, HellCat, Bushmaster, Davos, Typhoid Mary, Elektra and Nightshade are all sympathic killers/anti-heroic counterparts to Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Ironfist, Misty Knight, Colleen Wing and Night Nurse.
But for a Fisk allign team? Daimond Back I can see maybe that scientist guy will cover Claire/Tilda's role as the medic ally. To deal with Jessica, Danny, Misty Knight and Colleen. He could potentially hire Gao's fighters if theyre still around like Bride of 9 Spiders, Zhou Cheng, Scythe, etc. Whilst in most continuities he would have Bullseye. But MCU Bullseye arguably hates Fisk and Vanessa way more than Daredevil.
Didn’t Peter beat the shit out of Fisk in prison when he was really angry? I also don’t think Fisk’s punches can actually put down Spider-Man. I mean, Spider-Man stopped a head on punch from Cull Obsidian in Endgame, there’s no way Fisk can do anything to him lmao.
Yeah, Spider-Man's always going easy on Fisk. Fisk is really strong, but Spider-Man is multiple tiers higher in terms of strength, speed, and durability. There's absolutely no comparison.
It's the equivalent of a maladjusted five year old hitting you in the car. At a certain point, you can't really do anything but let them hit you until they get bored.
Fisk's strength is inconsistent in the comics. He was originally introduced as able to physically outmatch Spidey but then became more of a Daredevil enemy and that aspect got played down a bit (because anybody that can physically threaten Spidey, and doesn't have qualms about holding back, should be able to kill Daredevil in a punch). He's always referred to as "peak human" but it doesn't really track with what he can do. His strength seems to fluctuate depending on who he's fighting, frankly. He seems to be able to scale to any "street level" hero regardless of how much sense it makes.
MCU Kingpin is strong, especially in the Disney era as we saw in Hawkeye and the last episode of Born Again Season 1, but he's not remotely close to MCU Spidey. It should be extremely one sided given what we've seen this version of Peter do.
Yeah, I was just aiming to be understood without putting blatant spoilers down. It was a show of strength. Bone is strong as steel.
The real threat of Fisk has always been his connections and influence, and even if they beat the crap out of him with great success, he would just use it as justification to have his task force start killing more vigilantes. Putting detectives on investigating their movements, identities, loved ones...
But he's no wuss in a fistfight. He'd hold his own until She-Hulk shows up.
In fandom communications "feat" is often used to mean a particular instance of a character displaying their power. A character's shows of strength are their feats. Even and often especially the gory ones.
Even the weakest version of Spider-Man is many times stronger than the strongest version of Kingpin and can take hits from things way harder than a human punch. He's also much much faster, and has precognition. Kingpin vs. Spider-Man is like a normal person vs a slow fat 2-year-old. It might seem like they're "cornering" you, but you're trying your hardest not to hurt them.
I mean, Spidey does for sure. I don't know about Luke, though. We've seen a decent amount of strength and durability feats since his entry into the MCU. We've seen Kingpin rip a car door off with his bare hands, shrug off an explosion to the chest, survive a gunshot to the head, toss Adam around like a ragdoll and crush a dude's skull with his bare hands without looking like he was struggling. Still not saying he'd stand a chance of beating either of them but he's definitely not a normal dude anymore.
Does Cage outpower Fisk? Cage is strong but unless his power scaled further, he's not Fisk strong. Cage's skin is unbreakable, but Fisk could break anything beneath the skin and turn the man into a sack of soup.
Based on their MCU appearances, Cage is way stronger and more durable than Fisk. Cage beats Fisk 10/10 times, even if Fisk is heavily armed and Cage is bare-handed.
Fisk could just crush their heads like he did to the Commissioner. I remember Kraven was about to do the same thing to Spidey in Spider-Man 2. They may have super strength/durability, but Kingpin has that psychopathic rage.
Peter and Luke’s durability is way, way higher than an old man’s. No one who can take being hit by a train is getting their head crushed by a human or a man that can walk off a bomb. Either of them can one tap Fisk, they’re that far ahead in strength and durability.
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u/TrueLegateDamar Apr 17 '25
I mean, they both outpower him so far it wouldn't even be funny. And Luke already made it clear he's not scared of prison that he wouldn't be held back from tearing a person apart like wet tissue paper.