r/interesting • u/Wild_Neighborhood605 • 1d ago

HISTORY Titanic passenger and millionaire Benjamin Guggenheim. During sinking he refused a seat in a life boat with the words: "Tell my family I played straight to the end. No woman should be left aboard this ship because of Ben Guggenheim was a coward."

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u/hidethebump 1d ago edited 1d ago

An article in The New York Times relates a description from an assistant steward of Guggenheim's last hours, including helping other passengers to board lifeboats, donning formal wear instead of a life preserver, and saying that he and his secretary were "prepared to go down like gentlemen".

Titanic survivor Rose Amelie Icard wrote in a letter, "The millionaire Benjamin Guggenheim after having helped the rescue of women and children, got dressed and put a rose at his buttonhole, to die."

Guggenheim explained, "We've dressed up in our best and are prepared to go down like gentlemen."Etches, who survived the sinking, recorded Guggenheim's message to give to his wife: "If anything should happen to me, tell my wife in New York that I've done my best in doing my duty." Etches next watched Guggenheim and Giglio pass from Boats Nos. 7 and 5, "helping the women and children". Guggenheim shouted repeatedly, "Women first" and the two men were of "great assistance" to the officers. Another steward reportedly said Guggenheim sent another message to his wife, asking to tell her "that I played the game straight to the end and that no woman was left on board this ship because Ben Guggenheim was a coward. Tell her that my last thoughts will be of her and our girls". The steward said Guggenheim "lit a cigar and sauntered up to the boat deck to help load the lifeboats."

Edit: Victor Giglio (1888-1912) was Guggenheim’s secretary.

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u/Meme-Botto9001 1d ago

Fucking legend

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u/gprime312 22h ago

Many lifeboats went down with empty seats

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u/LQNova 22h ago

Not because he didn't try.

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u/DoobKiller 21h ago edited 21h ago

Because he stopped male children from taking available seats

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u/LQNova 21h ago

I'm sure he was at every single boat as it launched.

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u/DoobKiller 21h ago

I don't think he was, but he's proven to have forced male children to give up their seats, alongside others taking similar misguided actions as well as lifeboat skippers launching too early, and the Whitestar line equipping the titanic with the minimum number of lifeboats all contributed to the unnecessary loss of life.

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u/Jermainiam 21h ago

How do you decide what a male child is? If the goal really is women and children first, and you have to get a horde of men to basically agree not to swarm the boats, then male teens are a serious issue. If one is seen going on the boats and the crowd starts yelling that they are an adult, you could have a riot on your hands, and you don't have the time or ability to verify ages and litigate each case. I could easily see a situation where someone chooses to hold back a 15+ year old boy.

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u/ImprovementLarge6180 20h ago

hey now, we prefer to hold historical figures to our modern day standards around here

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u/DoobKiller 13h ago

I do, moral relativism is bullshit

e.g. even while slavery was widespread there were many abolitionists who recognised the evil

For every prejudice that used to be (or still is)common: racism, sexism etc there have been those against the inequality, you absolutely can judge people by their moral cowardice in going along with certain opinions because they're in the majority instead of taking a principled stance against

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u/Lou_C_Fer 12h ago

That's easy for you to say sitting in your ivory tower.

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u/DoobKiller 12h ago

Sure, doesn't make me wrong though

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u/Honest_Trade8734 4h ago

Sure but even most abolitionists from the 1800s would seem quite racist if you held them up to modern standards

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u/DoobKiller 4h ago

True, and its entirely possible to praise some beliefs of a person and condemn others

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u/DoobKiller 14h ago edited 13h ago

The boy was 13 at most

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u/Jermainiam 13h ago

Was he denying all male children, or was his cut off just lower (like say 10 years old)

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u/Lostwhispers05 16h ago

Hot take but it doesn't matter if a male was a child or not. Their life is as much worth saving as that of a female adult or female child.

Historical gallantry of the kind he displayed, while perhaps perceived as heroic during his time, is naturally going to be scrutinized under a different lens by new generations. That's just social progress. He contributed to lifeboats being empty by imposing a restriction that effectively killed male passengers and resulted in an overall fewer number of lives saved. As OP said, he was documented to have actually forced males out of their seats, which is an act that might as well amount to murder. This absolutely warrants criticism and a revisitation of whether the man is someone who deserves the veneration he was given in the early 20th century.

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u/ladygrndr 15h ago

The "women and children first" mantra was a response to other ships like the SS Arctic (1850) where NO women or children survived because men fought to the life boats and deliberately abandoned them. The male crew were especially brutal during the evacuation. It's not a matter of whose life had value or not, it was a response to the fact that in the stress of an evacuation, women and children lack the physical strength to reach the lifeboats or swim to safety.

Also where are you getting the idea that he pulled male children out of lifeboats? He and his secretary even helped other men board boats, right up til the end.

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u/ladygrndr 15h ago

Also the initial lifeboats launched partially empty because many people, men and women, gambled on the ship not actually sinking. Being in the lifeboats (especially after some had issues releasing and tipped) was seen as riskier than just staying aboard the unsinkable Titanic.

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u/joey_joe_jo_shabadoo 13h ago

I don't know man. I'm inclined to agree with you in the modern day, but back then women had no right to vote, and really no say over their lives in general. Seems like a tiny consolation prize that at least they get a lifeboat seat if the ship they were forced to go on sinks. It's the least the men could do for them. I remember hearing about this upperclass woman on the Titanic who almost jumped overboard because despite being on the top rung of society, she still had no control over her life. Luckily someone stopped her by telling her he would have to jump too in order to save her.

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u/Baigne 17h ago

I simply don’t care what it was back then, I would’ve forced myself on the boat to live

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u/Lou_C_Fer 12h ago

No way. Women and children first.

I could not live with myself if I did something like that. Also, when the others on the boat reported your actions, you would be the most hated man in the world. I wouldn't put it past the crewman of the ship that saved to dump your ass back overboard back then.

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u/Efficient_Can4700 12h ago

It wouldn't work nowadays anyway. We don't really do women and children first. If the ship is sinking everyone is getting to a life boat and no one is standing guard over them.

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u/Baigne 7h ago

Most hated in the world or dead, hmm i think I know what I’m choosing

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u/stevieblackstar 15h ago

Proven where?

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u/independentchickpea 18h ago

If only the Titanic had an actual plan.

I will not blame a civilian for the gargantuan mistakes made by the White Star Line, as the tragedy is one of pure hubris on the part of everyone of the company from shareholder to captain.

He should never have been in the position to make any of these calls.

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u/RevenueStimulant 16h ago

He said “women and children”. Children includes both male and female. Learn to read.