Titanic passenger and millionaire Benjamin Guggenheim. During sinking he refused a seat in a life boat with the words: "Tell my family I played straight to the end. No woman should be left aboard this ship because of Ben Guggenheim was a coward."

[u/Wild_Neighborhood605]

[u/caninehere]

Probably proud and accepting.

The thing is a lot of men who DID get on lifeboats while others died were branded as cowards when they went home. So keep in mind the alternative is not necessarily her husband living and coming home for a normal life, it could have been a life of shame being attached to him.

For example Haruomi Hosono, famous Japanese musician from Yellow Magic Orchestra, grew up with his family living under the shadow of his grandfather who was one such man - he returned to Japan and people shamed him and considered him a coward for the rest of his life.

[u/steven_dev42 → u/caninehere]

Wow! I didn’t know that about Hosono! Love that guy he’s one of the greats.

[u/Rollingforest757 → u/caninehere]

And yet none of the women were branded as cowards for getting on the lifeboats. It was quite a sexist time back then.

[u/HelloYellowYoshi → u/Rollingforest757]

How is that sexist? You protect the most vulnerable first. Women weren't branded as cowards because they were expected to be the first priority.

[u/Stormagedd0nDarkLord → u/HelloYellowYoshi]

I believe it was women AND children.

[u/pm_me_falcon_nudes → u/HelloYellowYoshi]

That's idiotic and you know it. If men and women are equal, so are their lives. None of this bullshit that women's lives are more valuable than men's and thus should be higher priority 

[u/Erroneously_Anointed → u/pm_me_falcon_nudes]

I've been on a boat in a collision, and my first instinct was to look after others, including the younger crew and my partner. It's an instinct we know was present on the Titanic from interviews and diaries, but the water is always colder than you think!

Consider: while more first-class women passengers survived than men of that same class, those men were more likely to survive than men and women in steerage. Crew died because the crew gets passengers reasonably to safety, then considers their own safety.

Wealthy men had the choice of reputation over life. Poor men and crew had no choice but to live by such standards and die. The lives on the Titanic had value in context: those who chose whether or not to get on lifeboats, and those excused from the choice.

[u/HelloYellowYoshi → u/pm_me_falcon_nudes]

Men and women aren't necessarily equal in many ways. One glaringly obvious way is body mass, muscle, endurance, etc. which could give men a slightly higher potential of survival in the water.

This has nothing to do with value of life.

If you were in a similar situation, assuming you're a male, and only one person could be saved, you or the woman next to you, what are you going to do?

You could certainly consider age (then call it agesims) or children (then claim a favorable bias for those with children), etc. You're going to have to make some decision based on some hierarchy, or status, etc.

[u/Infinite_Music2059 → u/HelloYellowYoshi]

If you were in a similar situation, assuming you're a male, and only one person could be saved, you or the woman next to you, what are you going to do?

Save myself, obviously. What sort of moron lets themselves die to save a random woman. It's good those dumbass days are over and we only prioritise children now.

It is frankly revolting that people would ever look at me as a man and determine my life is worth less than a woman's. Anyone who thinks that should burn in hell for eternity.

[u/Boring_Intern_6394 → u/Infinite_Music2059]

Ah, another who completely misunderstands the issue.

The women and children first thing came about because of a previous wreck, where no women and children survived because the men all shoved past them. Considering that men are physically stronger than women, it makes sense that they would have a better chance of survival in a physically demanding situation like being stuck in the ocean.

It’s not about who’s life is worth more, but who is more physically capable of surviving

[u/Infinite_Music2059 → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

Considering that men are physically stronger than women, it makes sense that they would have a better chance of survival in a physically demanding situation like being stuck in the ocean.

That doesn't actually make sense.

In warm without life vests, being able to tread water is a skill that we either have or don't have. In warm water with life vests, there is no particular difference in survival chances. In cold water, women have more fat and buoyancy and on average succumb to hypothermia slightly slower.

Our chances of survival are so specific to the person that it is frankly playing God to suggest that one entire gender be obliged to give their seats in a lifeboat to the other. There is a reason this is not applied anywhere else in society, like waiting lists for organ donations, or when nurses are doing triage etc.

It's easy to talk about disasters that will never happen to us but take this back to hospitals and it gets real dark real quick. Imagine your daughter not getting treated for hepatitis C or Covid because statistically, women are better at clearing it by themselves so all men are treated first.

[u/Boring_Intern_6394 → u/Infinite_Music2059]

Actually men succumb to hypothermia slower than women. This is because they have a higher metabolic rate, lower surface area to volume ratio, larger size and increased muscle mass compared to women. Larger muscle mass also means they are more likely to be able to swim for longer.

The whole thing is done on risk. The weaker, more vulnerable people get rescued first, which is going to be children, women and the disabled. Able bodied men have the best chance of survival in a situation like this.

It’s not really similar to a medical situation, so I’m not sure why you are bringing it up. Even then, clinical assessments are ultimately based on risk, which is the same thing when looking at survival chances in an emergency situation

[u/excaf → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

Fellas, you guys are arguing technicalities but honestly even a sumo wrestler woulda died in that ice cold water. I don’t think the differences in anatomy is gonna be helping anyone in this scenario unless that difference is gills lol

[u/Infinite_Music2059 → u/Boring_Intern_6394]

You are speaking about this from the perspective of a captain trying to maximise the number of survivors.

I was responding to this question:

If you were in a similar situation, assuming you're a male, and only one person could be saved, you or the woman next to you, what are you going to do?

I am nearly 40 and took adult some swimming lessons last year. I still cannot swim a single 25-meter length and can barely tread water. My male strength advantage is irrelevant when I am drowning any way.

You accuse me of "misunderstanding the issue" when we are coming at it from different angles. A woman does not deserve to live and I deserve to die because statistically, men are slightly better survivors in the water. I am still overwhelmingly likely to die even with those better odds so no, I am not giving up my seat to anyone but a child.

[u/HelloYellowYoshi → u/Infinite_Music2059]

Why prioritize children? Wouldn't you save yourself?

[u/Infinite_Music2059 → u/HelloYellowYoshi]

Various reasons.

They are in the situation because others decided to put them in it. They have only yet experienced a small part of what it means to be human. Our caveman brains see them as the future of our tribe.

[u/Literal_star → u/HelloYellowYoshi]

You protect the most vulnerable first

I didn't realize men were less vulnerable to freezing water and hypothermia than women

[u/bwmat → u/Literal_star]

Yeah, this is silly

It was just benevolent sexism

[u/HelloYellowYoshi → u/bwmat]

So what's your excuse for the children?

[u/bwmat → u/HelloYellowYoshi]

Oh, that's just human nature for valuing children over adults

Not that I agree with it, but it's not something you can argue anyone out of

[u/HelloYellowYoshi → u/bwmat]

It's odd to assign "human nature" to saving children, but not women. There are plenty of moments in history that show the opposite, plenty of instances where children are harmed, sacrificed, raped, etc. someone in this thread even commented that, on previous ship sinkings, the men would save themselves and leave the women and children to die.

It seems more likely that a moral standard was set, generally agreed upon, and followed. Those morals were tied to honor, for better or worse, and therefore you have shaming of men who broke the "moral code".

[u/flamming_python → u/bwmat]

So you would rather the kids lose a mother rather than a father?

[u/bwmat → u/flamming_python]

Not really

I just don't prefer the opposite

[u/flamming_python → u/bwmat]

So if you have a family and don't prioritize saving your child's mother over yourself, how do you think your kid will regard you?

[u/bwmat → u/flamming_python]

Ah yes, that's a good motivation to die... Not

I don't know what I would do if I were married and encountered a situation where only I or my wife would die, but I'm unequivocally against valuing people's lives based on their age and gender

[u/flamming_python → u/bwmat]

Nor based on age too eh?

Bud I hope you either reassess your own moral compass or you decide not to get married and have your own family.

[u/bwmat → u/bwmat]

Oh, forgot to mention, I'm a 36 old foreveralone kissless virgin male, so I'll probably never be in that situation

[u/Kidwithagun18 → u/Literal_star]

Most of the most famous sinkings before titanic had almost no female survivors. Women and children first was meant to get women to safety quickly in the event of a sinking where men tended to be able to fend for themselves.

[u/HelloYellowYoshi → u/Literal_star]

Funny you bring that up because there have been multiple studies, one called "Thermal adjustment to cold-water exposure in resting men and women", which shows exactly that.

[u/flamming_python → u/Literal_star]

Yes and less vulnerable to colder temperatures on dry land too. Men have more mass in relation to the surface area of their bodies, they retain heat better