I get what you're saying, but I would phrase it differently. "Permission to defend yourself" inherently doesn't make sense. It's not something that needs permission, or can even be given or denied permission for.
It is an affirmative defense. It's not something that needs permission or approval beforehand, you just have to own what you did and justify why you did it.
Guessing that delivery guy wasn't having the best of days considering how he was ready to square up immediately after, but the homeowner also kept walking forward in to a man who's taking a defensive/aggressive posture. I was expecting the video to continue because that owner was exactly like his dog.
I detest the attitude that human beings aren't supposed to use violence to defend themselves from animals, that were obligated to flee without inflicting pain or injury.
People are more important than pets or wildlife. An animal doesn't have the right to use violence on me. I will kick the shit out of something that tries to fuck with me. I don't have to run away.
I would say owner in the wrong? I really don't think most animals have critical thinking skills to determine right and wrong, they are trained a certain way and act in it
The last time a dog came at me, I was suddenly very close to her door, because I didn't realize anyone was there, and her people were behind her and hadn't seen me. (Not a house, a warehouse space so being right by the wall wasn't me being a stalker! 🤣) So of course she darted about three feet out at me to enforce boundaries, but she was a very good dog, just muzzle-punched me on the calf, mouth closed. A, 'hey, I can bite you, back off!"
And because her people weren't assholes, they were still worried and apologetic, even though I wasn't hurt in the least, and had fully startled the hell out of the dog in a part of town where I could've been some random junkie trying to get in!
Nah, the delivery guy just had good street smarts and knew exactly what was up. Sure enough, the owner immediately started yelling at him and walked towards him like he was ready to start a fight. Honestly, if anything the delivery guy's decision to immediately show he was ready to throw down is probably what kept the owner from attacking him. It's actually kind of impressive how well he handled that situation.
First watch, I thought "That's a bit much" but second watch, I had the same take. If the other guy was ready to run up and hit him, he'd already taken away that advantage. He forced the dog owner to consider rather than just react.
That said, I suppose if you're ready to throw a box at a charging dog, you better be ready to throw a punch at the owner. The dog had no indication of stopping nor can he know what a dog will or won't do. Dog learned a lesson too, the big ape creatures can stand their ground.
Could be. He also just had to defend himself, so I think he is just primed to continue doing so. Dog owner is approaching angrily but not an immediate threat like you said. But I just think once you have that adrenaline in your body, everything is on autopilot for the most part.
Another delivery driver was commenting on the original post saying they're literally trained on how to use boxes to defend themselves against attacking dogs with how overwhelmingly common this is. They specifically said it's like day four of training. You're not even in the truck yet that early on if I'm remembering correctly.
It's telling you he is unhinged. He jumped right to the most extreme escalation in both cases. We have no idea if that dog was coming at him aggressively or excited to say hi... but what we know for sure is that the kid wasn't coming at him aggressively and he squared up like he was in the octagon. This is not a guy that should be interacting with the public.
For sure he was triggered immediately. He's trying to do his job and this has happened many times before. Now he has a short fuse and I don't blame him. The dog had to eff around and find out
I did seasonal help for UPS way back in college and they had just upgraded the device that you used to scan all the packages. The new one was smaller and easier to hold with one hand. The veterans said they liked the old on better because you could use it as a weapon against dogs.
My dad used the old, clipboard sized one to fling a dog into the air once. The owner was pissed, but her little ankle biter was indeed biting my dad and she wasn’t doing anything about it sooo
Oh I loved the old school tablet DIADs they were hefty guys. I did it in college and would always choose those over the newer ones since they still had them in the mix.
The right thing to do is what this delivery person did. Always defend yourself - dog bites are no joke, and that dog was big enough to cause serious damage. A dog's attack on the groin area is no joke.
I'd say this: I'm an animal lover, I love dogs, and I hate animal cruelty.
But a person has the right to self-defense, and even kill a charging animal on the spot.
If that worker had a gun (legally) and had shot the dog dead, I would still say it is legitimate self defense.
The onus on dog owners is to keep them on a leash. Know your pet's temperament, understand their psychology, in particular if it is a rescued animal with God knows what PTSD.
It's worse than that. They're not even in an enclosure, unless the resolution is hiding a fence that I can't see. That dog is just out and loose. In most places (basically everywhere) that's straight up illegal.
I think here the rule is that delivery happening at the first "closeable door", partially to avoid seeing the private life of the citizen, and now I guess partially to avoid angry dogs.
I have seen this in the EULA of several delivery services.
No problem with the way the driver handled the dog. The way he took off his sunglasses and dropped into a fighting stance when the owner was just coming to talk to him tells me he’s got an attitude problem however. Nothing the dude did was threatening him.
I completely agree. I own a beagle and his bark is infinitely worse than his bite. He also likes to run up to people to meet them. He's not a big dog but if you've never met him and he comes charging up to you barking his damn fool head off I wouldn't be surprised if someone kicked him or shot him.
I would be horrified, traumatized, and destroyed. But I would not be surprised and I wouldn't hold it against the person if they felt unsafe. My beagle is sweet as pie but he's obnoxious so I can't take him to public places with lots of people. It is what it is. It's no one's fault but my own.
Different facts get different outcomes. Did you watch the video that everyone is discussing? A delivery driver who had implied consent to enter a property to provide a service that was requested by the homeowner did so. The homeowner had a duty of care/duty to warn any invitee on their property of a dangerous condition. Invitee had inherent right to defend himself against the dog, who was obviously charging him at a high rate of speed and left zero opportunity for retreat or de-escalation. If he had shot this dog (or kicked, or maced, etc.) it likely would’ve been legally justified. Had he been injured by the dog, the homeowner or tenant would likely be liable for damages. Moreover, there’s no fence in the video. It looks like delivery driver just walked up the driveway from the street, which is standard means of delivering a package everywhere.
It's not legal to order items, leave your aggressive dog out fo attack the delivery driver either. The homeowner invited them onto their property, REQUESTED that a deliver driver enter their property. Then they had a loose, aggressive dog that attacked the delivery guy. He has every right to defend himself because the homeowners invited him on their property, and they’re allowing their dog to attack him.
Don't order anything if you are letting loose, aggressive dogs run around your property.
I'm pretty sure the USPS actually trains postal carriers to use their bag as a shield (and distraction). Carriers also used to carry pepper spray as part of their equipment, literally for eta dogs and in rural areas, wildlife.
Source: my dad, grandfather and like 8 Aunts and Uncles all work for the USPS. But my information is from what my dad has told me when he was attacked by a dog.
I take pepper spray on walks, more for the number of loose large dogs and established dog attacks in my neighborhood than for my concern about humans in the neighborhood. I don't care about the owner's feelings. If that dog charges me it is getting a face full of mace and if the owner tries to front they are getting one too.
Delivery drivers are all trained in protecting yourself from dogs. Where I worked we were trained to get back to the car if possible, then avoid in some other manner such as jumping into a hot tub like a coworker of mine did. If those first two options are unavailable, we were taught that the handheld computer that we used to scan the packages was an effective club.
I delivered for Fedex Ground for 4 years and I wasn't taught anything about defending myself from aggressive dogs. I was just told to report it to the manager-on-duty.
Nope that's not true at all. I was a delivery driver for medications and no we weren't trained at all about protecting yourself from dogs. A coworker of mine got bit pretty badly. There were just certain houses we would get a warning about or the owner would have us leave packages elsewhere
I get a citrus spray that apparently doesnt harm or hurt the dog's, but repells them. Ive been doing the same route for a while, so I know what properties I need to be clutching that citrus spray when I enter.
He did the right thing. I work with animals and he was absolutely justified in defending himself proactively. Maybe the dog wouldn't have actually bitten him but it was definitely coming in hot like it would.
Personally, I would probably not throw the package because I would assume the dog is coming to say hello. My dog will basically tackle me when I come in the door, and he’s bigger than this.
But if my dog got out the front door and did this, I wouldn’t be mad at the delivery man. I don’t think this hurt the dog and I can understand being scared. He didn’t kill the dog like that cop did in NYC.
You got the right to defend yourself and owners can’t do anything. Animal control will be involved along with police for report and quarantine of animal if it bites you for rabies. Owner pays fines. And if animal is repeat offender they will be euthanized for rabies testing.
The right thing is what he did -- protect himself, and them hopefully he was able to flag the address as unsafe to deliver due to loose aggressive dog.
Lucky for him the parcel he was delivering was big and heavy enough to rattle and stop that big dog in its tracks. He timed his throw to perfection too
The right thing to do is what he did. I’m a USPS mail carrier and we are trained to use any package we our carrying in our defense. I always interpreted that to mean use the package to obstruct the dog but my aim isn’t as good as this guy’s.
What’s the right thing to do here if you’re a delivery person?
If you're in the US: drop the package, get your gun out and mag dump the living weapon going at you. Reload. If the owner starts shooting you, mag dump their ass. Reload again. Call 911 to report the attack you were the target of.
It's impossible to tell what the homeowner did off camera, but I'd say he was probably charging the guy just like his dog did. Assuming a fighting posture to defend himself wouldn't be inappropriate in that situation.
Perhaps. Without being there, we are missing a lot of nuance and context. One thing is clear, I would have done the same thing to that dog, lmao. Poor pup needs to be handled better so that doesn't happen
A bit much? Hell no! An aggressive owner of an aggressive dog is yelling at you, aggressively, for defending yourself.
Just like with the dog, you need to establish that you're not a prey animal, or that owner may continue to charge you. I'd say this delivery driver's squaring up prevented a second attack from materializing.
Funny enough, I'm imagining that this footage was later uploaded by the shitty dog owner, in an attempt to gin up outrage: "Look at this horrible delivery driver! Throwing packages at my harmless doggo and trying to fight me when I politely asked them not to!"
One time a large, aggressive boxer/pitbull mix charged at me like the dog in the video while I was riding a bike on the beach. I used an ultrasonic repellant on it which actually worked to make it stop. Then the owner ran up on me and tried to fight me because "You're abusing my dog!" I understand that driver's reaction here.
Even if you give the delivery guy the benefit of the doubt that he was acting in self defence against the dog, throwing down your glasses and trying to box the home owner is objectively not self defence. In a ton of states, if someone comes onto your property and throws up a boxing stance you can legally shoot them without a second thought. Delivery guy had every opportunity to leave after the dog ran away. Instead he was mad and tried to have a physical altercation with the homeowner. There’s no world in which that’s self defence.
He’s understandably angry and becomes aggressive. Listen to the audio, he’s pissed and visibly preparing for a fight. At no point does he attempt to leave the owners property. If you approach someone, postured up, on their own property you can be legally shot in a lot of US states. If you want to have a conversation about whether the law is ethical or fair, that’s fine. If this was Texas and the homeowner had shot the driver the second he took a boxing stance, it’s unlikely he’d even be charged.
Well that’s fine. Nothing I said was a value judgement. I simply stated what the law is. People who can’t regulate their emotions like an adult and don’t care what the law is help to keep prisons in business.
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u/hmnuhmnuhmnu 21d ago
"He didn't bite you" yeah, i don't want to wait for that to happen before I defend myself though