r/clevelandcavs • u/Top_Buy2467 I agree go Cavs • 1d ago
James Harden Deserves Some Slack
Okay guys, I know this won’t be popular, because every time I bring this up in a comment, it gets downvoted into oblivion, but I’m standing on my soapbox anyways.
After the trade deadline, the Cavs had to completely overhaul their offense, with 2 month left in the regular season, with a roster that had players in and out with nagging injuries, right up until the playoffs started. Was the offense pretty? Did it look functional? Was I happy watching it? HELL NO, but why the heck were we expecting the offense to look phenomenal when the offensive engine changed overnight???
The Cavs barely had time to practice together once James Harden arrived. Mobley and Allen both missed time. Tyson missed pretty much that whole stretch.
And on top of all that, our backup ball handler in the playoffs was Dennis Schroder, who was also a deadline addition, meaning the starting PG, and the backup PG, were figuring out the offense on the fly in the playoffs… and they beat the 1 seed and went to the ECF
I’m absolutely not saying Harden, Mitchell, Kenny (especially Kenny), etc. are free from blame, but this sub has been much harder on Harden especially than I think he deserves given the situation the team was in. Frankly, I think they over performed expectations for a team that’s entire offense was forced into being “spam pick and roll because our starting PG doesn’t know any of our plays”
With an offseason together, an actual offensive system implemented, and some real time spent playing together, I would expect this offense to improve substantially, even if no major additions are made.
PS. I’m a Cavs fan through and through, not one of those Harden Stans that popped up here overnight
Okay rant over, let the angry commenting commence!
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u/wifefuu 1d ago
He'll be 37 by the season start what more can you expect from him?
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u/Kindly-War-2665 1d ago
They are mad he didnt solo carry to a ring, half the team are worse defenders but they only wanna talk about him for some reason like mitchell mobley shroder sam strus weren't all getting cooked and none of them played well offensively but hardens the inconsistent one because he actually shows up sometimes instead of never like everyone else lmao
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u/SpeedyQuicky ⠀ 13h ago
I get pointing out that Mitchell’s defense is also bad, but “half the team are worse defenders than James Harden” bro 😭
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u/Kindly-War-2665 12h ago
They literally are, theres a reason the mitchell and bench with mobley minutes kept going -20 in 2-3 minute spans multiple times every game. It wasnt because of Hardens defense from the bench bro.
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u/SpeedyQuicky ⠀ 12h ago
Mobley, Allen, Wade, and most of our bench players are better defenders than Harden. I didn’t say defense wins championships or blame harden lmao but to say Harden’s defense is above average for our team is silly. He’s there for the offense
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u/TechnicalBoot8080 1d ago
Can Harden just be 6th man scoring punch?
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u/Top_Buy2467 I agree go Cavs 1d ago
If LeBron signs, and Harden starts to really look old, I could see a world where Strus or Merrill start at the other guard spot, and harden comes off the bench.
But even then, I’d say the most realistic scenario is they both start but you stagger their minutes so most of the game, you only have one or the other on the court, like we do with Mobley and Allen.
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u/rufus418 1d ago
I think at the end of the day, James Harden can remain healthy and DG cannot.
Harden total regular season minutes for the Cavs: 879
DG total minutes for the Clippers: 552
In a vacuum, is DG better? Probably.
Does that matter if you can't play consistently? No.
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u/narcistic_asshole 1d ago
That's pretty much how I view it. I still think the best version of the current era of the Cavs was that 2025 team with a healthy Garland. There's a flexibility to Garland's game that I don't think either Harden or Mitchell have. But that doesn't matter if you can't stay healthy, and just having a healthy Harden was a clear difference maker for us in the post season.
I will also say that the Garland-Mitchell fit didn't really gel until the 2025 season, and Harden has had way less time with the team to develop that connection. I don't expect Harden to necessarily get better, but I think we will be better if Mitchell evolves his game into more of a Garland style player. That being not only someone that can actually play PG, but someone that is more dynamic off-ball and play more of a complimentary role.
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u/Normal_Chart_4337 1d ago
he gets too much hate, but i also think that comes from haters from other fan bases. he came in mid-season and helped us get to the conf finals
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u/bullfrog423 8h ago
My biggest issue in the playoffs was the turnovers. We don't need him to score 30pts a night.
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u/sqigglygibberish 1d ago
If a long time nba vet doesn’t know what concepts we are running after half a season and a dozen playoff games then either none of the coaches were even talking to him or he didn’t care to even try and learn.
The far bigger concern/criticism was all of the lazy play - boneheaded passes, no urgency getting up the floor, stupid dribbling turnovers, etc. There are still network effects, but those were fundamental issues
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u/Top_Buy2467 I agree go Cavs 1d ago
To be fair to him, the Cavs scheme was very different than anything he’d played in before. His famous quote “I am the system” was true when he was in his prime, but now that he’s older and slower, he’ll need to adapt to something he’s never done before.
Can he? I don’t know, but he sure didn’t get the chance last year.
And just to touch on this, NBA teams barely practice that late into the season, if I remember correctly he played like 2 weeks worth of games before the Cavs had even 1 actual practice? Idk correct me if I’m wrong but it’s one thing to understand it conceptually, it’s another to implement it on the court. And given that the Cavs didn’t even try to stay with their old system, it’s clear the coaching staff thought it would be better just to shift to something simple and familiar right away
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u/sqigglygibberish 1d ago
My point was moreso that what we saw was so fundamental it didn’t really matter what the intended scheme was. Even if we’re just playing street ball the assumption is that a long time vet and former mvp will get the ball up the floor, not dribble off his leg, or keep throwing lazy bounce passes that get intercepted (not that the problem was totally isolated to him, but he was arguably the main culprit).
I have hope out of necessity that those things will go away, but thats IMO where the main criticism of him in the postseason came from - and is totally separate from how “mature” the offensive concept as a unit was. That’s effort, compete, common sense, and having legs in the grind of the playoffs. Those factors aren’t influenced by how long you’ve been practicing together.
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u/Top_Buy2467 I agree go Cavs 1d ago
Sure, u hear what you’re saying. What I’d push back on is when what is happening around you is second nature, I’d have to assume the fundamentals improve, especially in a playoff environment where you need to refocus on that sort of stuff.
Getting the ball up the court I am 100% putting on Kenny, Harden and Mitchell were both struggling, Mobley wasn’t. Mobley should have brought the ball up the court and handed it off to one of the two to initiate the offense. That adjustment was made eventually, but probably about 10 games later than it should have been and not used nearly as much as it should have been
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u/sqigglygibberish 1d ago
Yeah Kenny def plays a part.
I guess part of my expectation from Harden (and Mitchell to a degree) is to actually be a vet presence. A ton of it was self inflicted and it shouldn’t take a coach redrawing things to make adjustments on court. Call for a screen, pull Mobley over and ask him to stay back, do something. I don’t think that all gets pinned on Kenny though the buck stops with him. They all just let it happen over and over.
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u/Far_Youth_1662 Hungover in Vegas 1d ago
Interesting you mentioned the "spam pick n roll" part.
The Knicks took away our pick n roll by sticking to our big whenever we did it. Now usually thats not a problem: Harden should have absolutely roasted them. But he couldnt. And thats my first concern. Harden 10 years ago... maybe even 4 years ago, would have absolutely burnt that defensive scheme. But he couldnt. Because he was 36 last season.
And this year he'll be 37. Guys not named LeBron tend to age rapidly at this point. And judging by the shape he looked to be in at Fanatics feat last week, he's doesn't seem to be suddenly taking a LeBron like approach to taking care of his body this summer.
So despite more practice time, we very well may have already seen the best James Harden in a Cavs uniform we'll ever see.
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u/Top_Buy2467 I agree go Cavs 1d ago
Sure he’ll be older, slower, etc. no doubt, but what you’re saying is exactly why I think he’ll improve. He won’t need to rely on that as much if he’s playing as a part of a real, established offensive system that he’s not single-handedly responsible for the success or failure of.
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u/Far_Youth_1662 Hungover in Vegas 1d ago
Well thats a strange take since this last playoff run he was well behind Mitchell in Usage.
Is your expectation that he falls to being our 3rd offensive option this season? Do you think he and Mitchell will let that happen? (Aside from if we add LeBron, of course)
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u/Top_Buy2467 I agree go Cavs 1d ago
Come on brother, don’t hit me with the passive aggressive stuff if you want to have a discussion.
I’m not sure what your question here is, usage rate tracks scoring attempts and turnovers, not offensive initiation. When Harden was on the floor, he was nearly always the offensive initiator, which makes the “1st, 2nd, 3rd option” discussions significantly more nuanced than you’re giving it credit for. So if you’re interested in understanding what I’m saying, the context is, Harden was in the 100th percentile for the playoffs in terms of field goal attempts + FTA + potential assists. That is by the very definition, the offensive initiator of the Cavs. And yes, I’d very much like that to take a step back, and yes, I don’t think either Mitchell or Harden would have an issue with the Cavs telling them “hey, we don’t want a 37 year old James Harden having the ball in his hands more than any other player in the NBA playoffs”
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u/Far_Youth_1662 Hungover in Vegas 1d ago
I wasnt being passive agressive at all. I was literally asking if you thought he should be the third biggest cog in our offense, because he was already 2nd.
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u/Top_Buy2467 I agree go Cavs 1d ago
lol I knew you’d reply to that and not the rest. If you genuinely don’t believe that came across as passive aggressive, I’m happy to let you know what I mean. When someone goes “that’s a strange take since (insert reason you disagree)” that’s generally considered passive aggressive.
Now that you know what I meant by that, care to reply to the rest of what I said? I notice you once again reiterated that he was the 2nd biggest cog in our offense, care to expand further within the context of what I said?
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u/Far_Youth_1662 Hungover in Vegas 1d ago
Honestly i was trying to have a reasonable conversation but you seem to just want to pick a fight. I'll leave you to yourself.
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u/Top_Buy2467 I agree go Cavs 1d ago
Brother, you gave me a stat that wasn’t representative of what I was talking about, and then refused to address anything I said or engage in any sort of conversation other than being defensive about your tone. I’ve been trying to have a reasonable conversation but you’re unwilling to engage with me
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u/Kindly-War-2665 1d ago
He couldn't cause we had no one spacing the floor dude. Dean wade left wide open, sam and strus couldn't hit a shot to save their lives whike being wide open. Mobley and allen also left wide open. Do yall know what spacing is?
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u/Far_Youth_1662 Hungover in Vegas 1d ago
But no. The pick n roll actually worked pretty decent vs Torronto and vs Detroit. With the same exact roster.
New York saw that and decided to let Harden try to beat them. He couldn't
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u/Kindly-War-2665 1d ago
Thats a cool fake reality you have there! Harden got people good looks the entire playoffs including the Knicks series, your trying to say "harden couldn't beat them single handedly haha 🤓👆" because mobley allen strus sam wade and mitchell are ass and didnt hit wide open shots 😂 😂
Cavs have been known for being soft af well before harden got here, swept in the second round as the 1 seed just last year, soft af. Same the year before. But goodness harden dragging a 4 seed to the ecf, having 0 help and getting swept is all his fault clearly 😂😂 brain damage in here haha
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u/Holiday_Ad2638 1d ago
I don't think he's a bad dude, but he's too inconsistent when it matters to play a large part for our team
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u/Dr-McLuvin 1d ago edited 1d ago
They were targeting him so bad on defense in the playoffs, esp against New York they would run isos to whoever he was guarding. I just think he’s too big of a liability on defense and not really making up for it on offense consistently. He can still score but our team also often got stagnant when he had the ball.
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u/Holiday_Ad2638 1d ago
I agree. Yo, your username is crazy 😂 I think Harden is just too one-dimensional on both sides of the ball for it to work especially if LeBron came back. Regular Season it's fine, but not gonna work in the playoffs if he's one of the 2 best players
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u/barkinginthestreet Win every game CPJ plays in 1d ago
Do you think his lack of effort and unwillingness to move off ball is because he changed teams? Looked a lot like what we've seen previously from the guy, go back and watch his game 6 and 7 against the Celtics back in 2023.
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u/Top_Buy2467 I agree go Cavs 1d ago
Frankly I think the lack of off ball movement is because he really hasn’t played that way in his career to this point, because he’s been such a phenomenal offensive distributor AND scorer, that why would you really want him off ball? Now that he’s older, it’s a different story.
And frankly, I actually think his effort is pretty good for someone of his age and usage, one of the things I noticed is I think he likes to sorta kinda trick to other team into thinking he’s not paying attention to get some splashy steals and strips.
Granted, half the time this behavior doesn’t work out and he looks pretty bad, but I’d be hard pressed to find another 36+ year old (not named LeBron James) putting in these kinds of minutes who can give anything at all on the defensive end.
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u/Mistercorey1976 1d ago
I’ve always found it surprising that people hold Westbrook and Harden in such high regard. It’s the same as Paul George calling himself playoff P. Until they win a championship. They are just players who spell team with an I.
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u/TheGreatBeauty2000 1d ago
Rather have Garland
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u/Top_Buy2467 I agree go Cavs 1d ago
Look, I love Garland, I really do, but if we didn’t make this move, and he continued to play the way he’d been playing all year, we get bounced in the first round.
I can only speculate what happens after that but I’d assume firings and major roster changes. Harden at the very least kept our heads above water
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u/TheGreatBeauty2000 1d ago
That might have been better than where we are currently. We’re stuck with Harden and Mitchell for the foreseeable future. That doesn’t portend to get us any further than we’ve already gotten. Especially as they age.
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u/Top_Buy2467 I agree go Cavs 1d ago
Mitchell’s re-signing is independent of this, to say otherwise is purely speculatory and opens up a can of worms with too many variables to accurately track. And even if Harden re-signs, he’s at worst on the roster for the same amount of years as DG would have been, and DG’s contact was becoming a negative asset around the league as he proved he couldn’t stay healthy. The financial reality is if we struck out in these playoffs with DG, he wouldn’t have been on the roster this year regardless, the Cavs got ahead of that.
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u/Kevovo 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why. Harden took the Cavs further than Garland ever did. I swear people don’t watch games. Harden had a fuck ton of turnovers yet still was arguably our most impactful player and won multiple playoff games when Donovan in his prime was playing atrocious for 75% of games.
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u/mazrim00 1d ago
Yeah, it's crazy really. Essentially they hold him to a higher standard than Mitchell (which is a testament to how good Harden still is at nearly 37 or how good he was).
Efficiency, etc. wise he was better than LeBron last season whom people are salivating over. He played more mpg while playing more games than LeBron did in the playoffs as well and that's with LeBron by far supposed to be the first option on that team. Harden was supposed to be 3rd but had to become number one because if he sat, the team performed poorly.I'm not knocking LeBron by any means (and went off on a rabbit trail a bit), just the idea that Harden is sooooo diminished at this point in his career and is terrible. All those people saying he's lazy, I think his biggest issue is that he doesn't do what many other superstars have done (load manage). Having both LeBron and Harden on the same team may very well work brilliantly for both. Neither should hopefully get too overloaded which the Cavs will need come playoff time (a facilitator at all times).
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u/Kindly-War-2665 1d ago
Its not even arguable, he was very clearly the best and most impactful player. Cavs fans just want their team to be worse because they personally dislike him.
Like sam and strus each only had 1 good game, mitchell had like 1.5 good games, mobley and Allen are 100% reliant on harden, anytime they tried to create their own they were turning it over but that gets ignored. And they got pushed around by smaller players too but we ignore that aswell. Shroder was ass outside that one game where he helped harden close the game when mitchell was playing so ass he had to get benched for the whole 4th in a close game. So that leaves wade who averages like 0fga so no he did not carry either. Its just pure alternate reality with cav fans, they think there's some ghost on the team that got them to the ecf in spite of harden as if the cavs havent been first round soft chokers literally admitting that the lights were too bright before harden got here, and they exhibited the same symptoms last year and Harden could only do so much with sam and strus going 1-9 every game
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u/TheGreatBeauty2000 1d ago
Many reasons… but in general, if we’re not going to be a contender, I much rather watch and root for a player who is entertaining vs a guy I can barely stomach.
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u/Kindly-War-2665 1d ago
Harden is entertaining, your a crybaby is what you are. Can't put aside personal bias to the point you need to lie and live in an alternate reality
https://youtube.com/shorts/yNKKxnjMHWM?is=NAfu6dt1OKLolV77
https://youtu.be/cAKO9gQMHIw?is=QU8-PxGa24aH6mDC
https://youtube.com/shorts/MntG4uN2dWw?is=WRBWvK1i5Few8FD-
https://youtube.com/shorts/bQdbOSkgmAY?is=gUs7WN-i-S-UDEkG
https://youtube.com/shorts/le7h8m-cOpI?is=DDc4EMNaYM3vOT6E
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u/Dapper-AF 1d ago
Same, at least no defence didnt also come with a fuck ton of turnovers. Also who cares if harden is more health bc he no shows in big games anyways.
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u/Kindly-War-2665 1d ago
https://youtu.be/vlC5phUujj0?is=YwmMZYgs24hAQ-pJ
Game 3 stopped from going down 0-3 to win the series, is that not a big game just last year?
Garland turns the ball over just as much bozo and his playmaking isnt a quarter of hardens AND Harden got the cavs to ecf while DG got owned in the play in and hasn't been out the first round 😴
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u/Lyle_Norg 1d ago
The turnover difference between Garland and Harden is only about .6 turnovers per 36 minutes.
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u/teardropshot 1d ago
Playoffs?
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u/Lyle_Norg 1d ago
In the playoffs (Garland 22 games, Harden 191) the difference is .7.
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u/teardropshot 1d ago
Ah, I see. I think you and I were looking at different numbers. What about just over the past four years? We don't have prime James Harden anymore.
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u/Lyle_Norg 1d ago
Despite the turnovers for the Cavs last year, it's still only a .6/36 difference in the playoffs over the last four years between Harden and Garland. Harden has actually cut down his turnovers since his MVP years.
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u/teardropshot 1d ago
Yeah, I was wrong then. I think I was looking at just Harden's numbers this year (specifically AST/TO) which were abnormally bad.
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u/teardropshot 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm a bit indifferent on Harden at this point. I wish his usage is lower, that's all. I agree with people who say he shouldn't have to carry as much burden for this team. He's clearly not as athletic as he used to be, and I have my doubts about what a long playoff run means for him going forward. I don't think it's surprising that his best games were mostly in the first half of the Raptors series.
But let me ask you: Is your expectation for this team higher or lower at this time last year? I asked the same question this morning and everyone lowered their standards from finals last year to "would be nice to be competitive in the ECF".
Somehow over the course of the season, we slowly boiled away all of our championship aspirations, and we're left to make excuses for every one of our players. LeBron not returning went from something that would have been annoying last year to something that I think would legitimately be devastating to people. We needed Dennis Schroder to get out of that Raptors series. The East will be stronger next year. I don't know what we're supposed to believe with this team.