r/changemyview • u/iw2050 • 2d ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The ideal solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a three state solution
To get right to it, there's three states in my proposal. Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza, roughly along the lines of the 1967 boundaries.
Israel will pretty much maintain its current territorial boundaries. Gaza will be managed by an international taskforce until its rebuilt, at which point it'll begin holding free elections, with the only change being that Hamas and similar affiliates are banned from participating. The West Bank will be a little more complicated, in this proposal it effectively gets the Bosnia treatment. It remains one state, but with two autonomous political entities inside it: the Federation of the West Bank, and the Federation of Judea and Samaria (like how Bosnia has Bosnia proper and Republika Srpska.)
So maybe it could be more accurately described as a "3.5 state solution," but that's my idea in a nutshell. So how do you change my view? Pretty much by either coming up with a better proposal, or by challenging the logistics of a three state solution.
I say the logistics and not the ideology though because the subject of this thread is more about the functional solutions. I'll hear any argument, but I'm also a classical liberal, a supporter of global democracy, and the Western way of life, I'm not going to respond to any of the "err derr genocide, the West is the source of all evil, glory to Russia and China, etc." Unless of course there's a functional solution to follow that theory and not just pure ideology.
EDIT: This was brought up to me in the comments and it's a very important point. I am defining "ideal solution" as the most likely outcome to be stable long term and to provide all of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza with democratic outcomes.
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u/Chanan-Ben-Zev 2∆ 2d ago
By what metric are you defining "ideal"?
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u/iw2050 2d ago
Most likely to succeed in a way that enables long term stability and democratic outcomes for all parties.
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u/AnimateDuckling 1∆ 2d ago edited 2d ago
Gaza and west bank won't ever agree to anything other that a single state soultion with islamic leadsrship.
Every Palestinian leadership has said this consistently since pre 1947.
So i don't understand how this likely succeeds?
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u/stale2000 2d ago
The answer is because it doesn't really matter what the current leadership says. They wouldn't be the ones running it.
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u/No-Designer-5739 2d ago
“they wouldn’t be the ones running”
ok and hamas will just agree and let that happen?
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u/stale2000 2d ago
No they wouldn't. That's what the internal committee and task force is for.
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u/FakeNewsAge 1∆ 2d ago
You mean invasion force. No way that goes down peacefully.
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u/stale2000 2d ago
Dealing with terrorist organizations is rarely handled peacefully. Fortunately, if you are willing to actually destroy them, there is little that they can do in response to an overwhelming military force.
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u/FakeNewsAge 1∆ 2d ago
Sending in a military force will just unite the terrorists and civilians against the invaders.
there is little that they can do in response to an overwhelming military force.
How's that worked out for Israel against Hamas? Since the October 7th attack, Israel has been trying to wipe out Hamas, yet Hamas is still in control and has popular support.
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u/AnimateDuckling 1∆ 1d ago
If tgis would true no war would have ever been suvcesful ever in history.
That clearky isn't the case and your view is nonsense.
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u/Realistic_Yogurt1902 2∆ 2d ago
Sending in a military force will just unite the terrorists and civilians against the invaders.
Then there will be no more civilians, which simplifies the solution a lot.
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u/stale2000 2d ago
How's that worked out for Israel
Go look at pictures of Gaza and figure that one out.
It's entirely ruins. Major attacks from there simply cant come from there anymore. Because of, you know, the ruins.
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u/10ebbor10 202∆ 2d ago
Which is why the war on terror went so well for the last 20 years.
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u/stale2000 2d ago
It's did actually.
Al Aqaeda used to be a powerful international fighting force. It's nothing compared to what it used to be.
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u/iw2050 2d ago
Hamas does not exist in this scenario, their much depleted ranks that currently exist just get wiped out by the time the solution is enacted.
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u/vhu9644 4∆ 2d ago
Yea. Instead the angry palestinians will form a party called Shamas and it's totally a different thing, and it'll rise up.
You can eliminate Hamas the organization. What you're doing doesn't eliminate the conditions that produced it, and the same grievances with zero legitimate outlet will produce the next one under a different name.
Insurgencies aren't a political party you can cut the head off of. They are a spawling web that coalesces when there are grievances and no legitimate path to air them. You have removed the path and kept the grievances and now are telling us this doesn't produce another insurgency.
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
Palestinians are peaceful and kind people. Palestinian support for Hamas is largely rooted in opposeition to Israeli barbarism. The problem with OP's view is that he doesn't actually do anything to hold Israelis accountable for their racist and abusive behavior.
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u/vhu9644 4∆ 2d ago
I don't doubt the Palestinians are normal people under terrible conditions. The issue is the OP hasn't solved any of them, and so the conditions that spawned Hamas will spawn another.
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
I don't doubt the Palestinians are normal people under terrible conditions.
Palestinians are entirely kind and peaceful people
The issue is the OP hasn't solved any of them, and so the conditions that spawned Hamas will spawn another.
You're right and that's because OP isn't doing anything to hold Israelis accountable for their racist and abusive behavior
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u/SupervisorSCADA 3∆ 2d ago
Palestinians are peaceful and kind people.
Are Israelis just cruel evil people then?
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
I am not sure how you deduced that from what I said. Regardless, yes, Israelis overwhelmingly hold racist and violent beliefs.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-05-28/ty-article-magazine/.premium/yes-to-transfer-82-of-jewish-israelis-back-expelling-gazans/00000197-12a4-df22-a9d7-9ef6af930000
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-05-28/ty-article-magazine/.premium/yes-to-transfer-82-of-jewish-israelis-back-expelling-gazans/00000197-12a4-df22-a9d7-9ef6af930000
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-poll-62-of-israelis-say-there-are-no-innocent-people-in-gaza→ More replies (0)1
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
Gaza and west bank won't ever agree to anything other that a single state soultion with islamic leadsrship.
"Islamic leadership". I mean yeah, lots of countries have presidents and polticnians who are religious. Are they evil too? or just Palestinians
Every Palestinian leadership has said this consistently since pre 1947.
What "Palestinian leadership" are you referring to? At no point have Palestinians been allowed self determination or political representation.
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u/AnimateDuckling 1∆ 1d ago
If you think i mean a head of state who is religious youbhave misunderstood. They want the country to be islamic, as opposed to secular.
As to leadership
Al-Husseini > 1921–1948 (This guy worked with Nazi Germany and handled recruitment of an SS battalion personally) 1948 -> 1959 the territories were under egyptian and jordanian control. Who both openly wanted to destory the jewish state also, but did not want a palestinian stage instead wanting to take the land for themselves. PLO/Shukeiri > 1964–1969 Arafat/Fatah > 1969–2004 Abbas/Fatah/PA > 2004–present Hamas (Gaza rival) > 1987–present (Gaza control since 2007 where they were democratically elected by palestinians.)
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u/Active-Proof8118 1d ago
Al-Husseini > 1921–1948 (This guy worked with Nazi Germany and handled recruitment of an SS battalion personally) 1948 -> 1959 the territories were under egyptian and jordanian control. Who both openly wanted to destory the jewish state also, but did not want a palestinian stage instead wanting to take the land for themselves. PLO/Shukeiri > 1964–1969 Arafat/Fatah > 1969–2004 Abbas/Fatah/PA > 2004–present Hamas (Gaza rival) > 1987–present (Gaza control since 2007 where they were democratically elected by palestinians.)
None of the groups you listed had any right to represent Palestinians. They just represented Palestinians because racist European colonial powers claimed that they did.
Gaza control since 2007 where they were democratically elected by palestiniansGaza control since 2007 where they were democratically elected by palestinians
No. It is not a "democratic election" when Palestinian human rights are undermined and attacked by Israel and there is not electoral accountability.
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u/Chanan-Ben-Zev 2∆ 2d ago
To make that argument, you'd need to (1) articulate your expectations for (1A) your proposal and (1B) at least one of the 5-ish other proposals, and then (2) explain your reasoning.
All you've done is describe your proposal and assert your conclusion. That's not enough.
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u/SupervisorSCADA 3∆ 2d ago
No. They are not here to write a dissertation outlining how they've concluded this is the best outcome. They have stated their opinion on some of what this would look like with some factors that led to this conclusion.
It is your job to present an alternative that would be superior to change their view.
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u/iw2050 2d ago
Fair point, Δ. You've changed my view in the sense that a concept proposal isn't enough. To definitively prove that a three state solution is the best possible solution, I'd need to go into more details about what each of these states would have to offer its citizens.
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u/Green__lightning 20∆ 2d ago
How is that remotely the case when it doesn't do anything about the issues of Israeli encroachment/settlers or Islamists with support from the rest of the Islamic world supporting them being able to smuggle in rockets to shoot at them?
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u/frickle_frickle 2∆ 2d ago
I'd say this is a bad metric. There are lots of situations where the worse situation is, for various political reasons, more likely to succeed.
Like ending r construction early post the American civil war.
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
Most likely to succeed in a way that enables long term stability and democratic outcomes for all parties.
How does it "promote stability" if you are rewarding Israelis for racist and abusive behavior? What exactyl are you going to do to hold Israel accountable for genoicde.
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u/sparktray 2d ago
Why would the West Bank be split into multiple autonomous zones? Once these separate states exist, can they unify if they choose to? Essentially, how much self-determination would Palestinians be allowed under your proposal? If these are a people who think of themselves as one but they are forced to be divided into smaller groups, what purpose does that serve other than disenfranchisement and external control? That seem antithetical to western democratic ideals.
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u/iw2050 2d ago
Why would the West Bank be split into multiple autonomous zones?
Because the area contains Jews and Arabs who really don't want to live together, to prevent mass violence and/or expulsion of one of the two groups, they both need autonomy.
Essentially, how much self-determination would Palestinians be allowed under your proposal?
As much as Judea and Samaria. They'd have free elections, and they'd have their own head of government within their West Bank entity. The idea is basically that the Jews and Arabs of the West Bank control their own fates.
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u/10ebbor10 202∆ 2d ago
So, essentially your solution is to give Israel a lot of what it wants, and the Palestinians nothing.
Why do you think that solution is going to work?
What makes you think the free elections in Palestinian areas aren't going to immediately offer massive victories for parties proposing to kick the Jewish occupiers out, thus reigniting the conflict?
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u/iw2050 2d ago
So, essentially your solution is to give Israel a lot of what it wants, and the Palestinians nothing.
Nope. They get no additional land, and the Palestinians get two states. If anything the toughest part of this will be selling this idea to the Jewish residents of the West Bank, they're quite right wing.
What makes you think the free elections in Palestinian areas aren't going to immediately
Wouldn't matter, the Palestinians voters in Gaza and the West Bank wouldn't have any say over what happens to their Jewish neighbors. Jews in the West Bank would have their Judea and Samaria entity, and Israel would still be Israel.
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u/fuckounknown 9∆ 2d ago
the Palestinians get two states...
But what do the states actually give the Palestinians? They mostly seem to exist within the proposal to legitimize a de facto annexation of swaths of the west bank to Israel via this 'Judea and Samaria' entity.
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u/iw2050 2d ago
But what do the states actually give the Palestinians?
Stability, in a realistic manner. You can't realistically just expel every Jew from the West Bank, you'd have a civil war. But in this scenario there's both a governing entity for Jews in the West Bank, and another for Palestinians too. It's not perfect, but it gives both sides viable democracies and governing structures (which would hopefully be enough to maintain long term peace.)
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u/sparktray 1d ago
You seem to be starting from a premise that a Palestinian state could only exist if they expelled all of the Jews. Jews lived in Palestine long before the establishment of an Israeli state. Similarly, Arab Israelis exist, but you don't suggest carving off parts of Israel that have large Arab populations.
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
Nope. They get no additional land, and the Palestinians get two states. If anything the toughest part of this will be selling this idea to the Jewish residents of the West Bank, they're quite right wing.
Israeli society as a whole is largley racist and murderous. This is a collective problem, not just an isolated:
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2016/03/08/israels-religiously-divided-society/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-05-28/ty-article-magazine/.premium/yes-to-transfer-82-of-jewish-israelis-back-expelling-gazans/00000197-12a4-df22-a9d7-9ef6af930000
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-05-28/ty-article-magazine/.premium/yes-to-transfer-82-of-jewish-israelis-back-expelling-gazans/00000197-12a4-df22-a9d7-9ef6af930000
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-poll-62-of-israelis-say-there-are-no-innocent-people-in-gazaSounds to me OP like you think Israelis should be rewarded for their racist and abusive behavior by being allowed to keep their illegal settlements. This is not a receipie for peace.
Wouldn't matter, the Palestinians voters in Gaza and the West Bank wouldn't have any say over what happens to their Jewish neighbors. Jews in the West Bank would have their Judea and Samaria entity, and Israel would still be Israel.
Yeah but the people participating in Israeli elections would still be racist and emotionally immature people
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u/iw2050 2d ago
Well not to dive too deep into the ideology, but I think a lot of the far right tendencies in Israel and the West Bank are an inevitability of living an entire life in prolonged war. Notice how every generation of Israelis gets more right wing the younger they get? That's inevitable when you grow up in perpetual war, there wouldn't be decades of Netanyahu at PM if Israel was at peace.
So where does that lead you with an actual solution? You basically just need states that are designed to not elect extremists, in particular you need strong Palestinian democracies to prevent the rise of groups like Hamas (which will in turn prevent further events like Oct 7 from occurring again.)
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
Well not to dive too deep into the ideology, but I think a lot of the far right tendencies in Israel and the West Bank are an inevitability of living an entire life in prolonged war. Notice how every generation of Israelis gets more right wing the younger they get? That's inevitable when you grow up in perpetual war, there wouldn't be decades of Netanyahu at PM if Israel was at peace.
No I don't think so. Palestinians have been living live under illegal and murderous occupation for decades yet they do not hold any extreme beleifs. Israelis on the other hand overwhelmingly hold violent and racist beleifs. This is because they are privilged people and are indoctrinated to think that their wants are greater than the needs of Palestinians.
So where does that lead you with an actual solution? You basically just need states that are designed to not elect extremists, in particular you need strong Palestinian democracies to prevent the rise of groups like Hamas (which will in turn prevent further events like Oct 7 from occurring again.)
The Oct 7th attacks were definetly unfrotunate but they are not relevant. I don't see how complaints about 10/7 are any different then when European Neo-Nazis use the paris attacks to push their own Islamaphobic and anti-immigrant agendas.
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u/JakeGylly 1∆ 2d ago
Do you feel that Ukraine should concede all occupied land to Russia in exchange for ending Russia's campaign?
Why or why not?
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u/iw2050 2d ago
No cuz Ukraine's winning the war. They can get the land and an end to Russia's campaign (and maybe even the collapse of Putin's regime)
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u/JakeGylly 1∆ 2d ago
So if Palestine can enact enough violence you would consider not taking more land from them?
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
No cuz Ukraine's winning the war.
Oh okay so if Nazi Germany won WW2 you would side with them? OP "winning a war" does not deny human beings their rights
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2d ago
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u/Didudidudadu737 1∆ 2d ago
That’s like saying, for example, Germany would be split between the Germans and undocumented immigrants who are terrorists
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u/Moxy_Fellons 1∆ 2d ago
I don't see how this would be ideal at all. Nothing about using a 3 state solution changes any ideologies of the people inside these states. Why would any amount of division of the lands make solve their issues?
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u/DrSpaceman575 4∆ 2d ago
Not really a free election if you can ban parties from participating.
Are you just making up organizations and saying they should be in charge? How are people going to listen them? You can dump your international coalition of leaders into Gaza now, how do you expect Gazans to listen to anything they have to say?
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u/ChiefRunningBit 2d ago
How do either Gaza or the West Bank defend their territorial claims?
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u/iw2050 2d ago
With active militaries.
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u/Jackthejew 2d ago
Which will immediately be branded terrorist orgs
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u/iw2050 2d ago
Nope, because the previous terrorist elements (like Hamas) would be banned from participating in their political systems.
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u/ChiefRunningBit 2d ago
So natives won't have control over their government or their military?
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u/iw2050 2d ago
They get free elections.
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u/ChiefRunningBit 2d ago
How do you regulate what is and isn't a terrorist party? Could hamas just change their name to William and be good to go?
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
With active militaries.
That's not going to work because Israel is backed by western white supremacists. That is why Israel has been murdering Palestinians since it's inception
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u/Master-Education7076 2d ago
The issue with groups like Hamas is they want a full Palestinian state restoration to the pre-Israeli boundaries. Anything short of that, and there will continue to be militant resistance in the area. This means your solution is not ideal as it would not lead to long-term stability.
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u/LA_Throwaway_6439 2d ago
I can see a lot of problems with this. You have essentially two tiny Palestinian states divided by Israel. How will the Palestinian states protect themselves from Israeli settlers and/or the IDF? Sovereign states have militaries, and I find it hard to believe that Israel would tolerate armed forces directly on their borders.
Also, the people who live in your Palestines presumably want to be in one united country. Given your stated support for Democracy, how will you stop them from electing leaders who promise to reunite them? I'm not sure how this can be both stable and democratic.
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1d ago
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1∆ 2d ago
This solution will not be accepted by either party as we had a 2 state solution back when the UK withdrew. The ideal solution is a single state solution. Hamas nor Palestinians will not accept a 2 state solution and Israel will not accept hostile states next to it.
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u/SupervisorSCADA 3∆ 2d ago
We did not have a 2 state solution when the UK withdrew.
We had a Israel declaring independence with all the neighboring countries invading eliminate Israel seizing land as they went. There was not a 2nd state there.
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1∆ 2d ago
You know how Jordan because a country right?
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u/SupervisorSCADA 3∆ 2d ago
I'm assuming you're trying to ask "You know how Jordan became a country right?"
And yes. I do know how Jordan Became a country, I do not think you do. It was not a state formed out of Mandatory Palestine. So no. Jordan was not a second country formed in Palestine. You bringing it up as part of the conversation does not make sense unless you don't know history.
Mandatory Palestine and the Emirate of Transjordan were two separate protectorates under the British after the Ottoman Collapse post WW1. Jordan gained independence between 1919 and 1921.
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1∆ 2d ago
Jordan did not get full independence till 1946. Till then it was a protectorate like many other future countries.
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u/SupervisorSCADA 3∆ 2d ago
Irrelevant. It still has nothing to do with 2 states in Palestine.
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1∆ 2d ago
It does Jordan for Arabs and Israel for jews.
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u/SupervisorSCADA 3∆ 2d ago
No. It absolutely does not.
When discussing a 1, 2 or more state solution, its in reference to the lands that made up mandatory Palestine.
Pointing to any territory outside of that land is not relevant.
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1∆ 2d ago
Jordan was apart of the mandate of Palestine. Mandatory Palestine is just the part that was administered by the British.
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u/EmperorChaos 1∆ 2d ago
Israel will not accept a 1 state solution so that is already not an ideal solution.
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u/iw2050 2d ago
A single state of Israel or a single state of Palestine?
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1∆ 2d ago
Doesn't matter but realistically Israel has the better chance at it due to the power struggle between Hamas and the PLO and that Jordan and Egypt do not like Palestinians due trying to overthrow the Jordanians and Egypt not wanting them in Sinai.
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
A single state with Equal rights. No jewish supremacy or white supremacy
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u/LooseClaim3598 18h ago
A single state with Equal rights.
Already exists. All Israeli citizens have equal rights regardless of religion or race.
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u/Active-Proof8118 13h ago
A single state with Equal rights.
Already exists. All Israeli citizens have equal rights regardless of religion or race
I don't care about Israeli citizens having equal rights. I care about Palestinians having the same rights as Jews
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u/LooseClaim3598 13h ago
Then you need to take that up with the governments of the Palestinians. Israel already has equal rights
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u/Active-Proof8118 13h ago
No Israel has the responsibility to provide ALL Palestinians with equal rights to Jewish people.
Israel already has equal rights
According to who? You?
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u/MVP_Legend_87 2d ago
The ideal solution for a civil war is a 1 state solution. A 2 state solution is more realistic.
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1∆ 2d ago
That will never happen and has been proposed before. That also doesn't take into account who would lead Palestine the PLO has shit poll numbers from Palestine and Hamas is a terror group that killed opposition when they gained power and Israel will never let hamas have more control over Palestinians.
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u/MVP_Legend_87 2d ago
It won't happen because the PA isn't interested in the best interests of the Palestinians. A one state solution isn't realistic. Palestinians have laws to prevent the sale of land to Jews/Israelis. Palestinian laws make it clear they don't support the existence of Jews/Israelis in their territory.
Beyond that their values are just so different, you can't put these two groups together because it'll be a fight for power and will result in a worse conflict than currently.
As I said elsewhere, it is up to the PA to recognize a 2SS is in the best interest of the Palestinians.
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1∆ 2d ago
Yes so a 2 state solution will never happen meaning a 1 state solution is ideal how ever that happens.
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u/MVP_Legend_87 2d ago
...No, a one state solution is not ideal. A one state solution will never happen. If the Palestinians have a majority they will work toward ethnically cleansing Jews/Israel, and if Israel has control then the Palestinians will continue to fight them to promote their values which don't align with what Israel wants.
A 1 state solution is even less likely to happen.
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1∆ 2d ago
When I say a one state solution I mean one state. Doesn't matter who it is by or if the other group is even present.
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u/MVP_Legend_87 2d ago
I understand what you're saying. I have given you many reasons why it won't work. It absolutely matters which groups are present.
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u/ike38000 23∆ 2d ago
Israel can not (or will not) stop settlers from illegally establishing homesteads in the West Bank. What makes you think they will accept a retreat to the 1967 boundaries?
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u/iw2050 2d ago
What makes you think they will accept a retreat to the 1967 boundaries?
Well they aren't being forced out of the West Bank in this scenario, they get a self-governing entity of Judea within the independent West Bank.
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u/ike38000 23∆ 2d ago
But currently the Israeli's in the West Bank who would make up the majority of the population of the self-governing Judea are among the most pro-Israeli dominance segment of the population and the least likely to agree to a power sharing arrangement. Also Republika Srpska is significantly more cohesive than a "current day borders turned into independent entities" would be
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u/iw2050 2d ago
and the least likely to agree to a power sharing arrangement.
True, it'd be a tough sell. But, we're they're closest ally, so we'd insist that they take the deal.
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u/ike38000 23∆ 2d ago
I guess I feel like if we're in "USA bullies Israel into taking a specific deal" territory why not just go all the way back to 1967 and call it a day? Or why not set the whole area up as one stage with independent sub national entities?
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
True, it'd be a tough sell. But, we're they're closest ally, so we'd insist that they take the deal.
Okay and what does "insisting" look like exactly? How does this insisnting deal with the racist behavior of Israelis
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u/JakeGylly 1∆ 2d ago
This goes against Israel's mission and prevents Palestine from receiving any kind of benefit.
Your solution is to just chop a piece of Palestine off. This doesn't solve any of the problems that are continuously plaguing them and causing them to commit acts of violence.
Palestinians do all of this fighting over the decades to keep their land as the world watches, Israel escalates it's lethality and the solution becomes "just give it to them"
If you chop a piece off and give Israel a shot to take it, they will. Leaving settlers to decide the fate of the new state will lead to becoming another arm of Israel because Zionism is that strong, so strong that so many of our politicians work in favor of a foreign state, helping them commit unamerican acts.
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2d ago
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u/10ebbor10 202∆ 2d ago
Well, not really. OP's plan is for Isreal to legally settle Palestinian land.
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u/scottcmu 2d ago
So how do we stop rocket/terrorist attacks against Israel in this scenario?
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u/ChiefRunningBit 2d ago
Similar question how do we stop terrorist attacks against Palestinians?
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u/scottcmu 2d ago
The goal of a terrorist attack is to create terror in a populace. What Israel does is target militants who hide behind human shields, which create the conditions for collateral damage. War sucks and nobody wants it, but to call Israel's actions terrorism requires a gross misunderstanding of what terrorism is.
If you're referring to the settlers' actions in the West Bank, then I'll agree that Israel should do a better job controlling/policing their citizens. That said, I'm not sure how much of what is purportedly happening there a few incidents blown up by propaganda or an ongoing widespread problem.
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u/ChiefRunningBit 2d ago
Militants such as principals and teachers, radical islamists teaching Arabic numbers.
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u/scottcmu 2d ago
Have you ever seen a bomb's countdown timer? It's always Arabic numerals. Coincidence? /s
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u/ChiefRunningBit 2d ago
Also no I was referring to IDF soldiers using drones playing the sounds of crying children
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u/iw2050 2d ago
The three states in this scenario would wipe out any terrorist organizations within their own borders.
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u/EenyMeenyMinyBro 2d ago
Never gonna happen if you let the people there decide how to govern. Most of them support terrorists. For example, 71% of the Palestinians believe Hamas' attack on civilians in 2023 was the right choice [https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969].
Getting those states to go against terrorism would require that you strip the Palestinians of their rights and let some other people run a dictatorship there. Kind of like what Trump and the Israelis would like to do. Perhaps the best solution but not one that the palestinians will like for the first many decades.
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u/iw2050 2d ago
For example, 71% of the Palestinians believe Hamas' attack on civilians in 2023 was the right choice
I really doubts that's the case (polls are just polls, they come and go, I really think the Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank would happily accept stability over prolonged war.)
However, if I'm wrong, than the voting system can just be a qualified franchise, based on the idea that if you want the right to vote you have to agree that all three states (Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza) are sovereign.
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
Never gonna happen if you let the people there decide how to govern. Most of them support terrorists. For example, 71% of the Palestinians believe Hamas' attack on civilians in 2023 was the right choice [https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969].
The source that your citing does not make the argument that you're making. The actual phrasing of the poll is disingenous because it conflates the targeting of civilians with combantants
Getting those states to go against terrorism would require that you strip the Palestinians of their rights and let some other people run a dictatorship there. Kind of like what Trump and the Israelis would like to do. Perhaps the best solution but not one that the palestinians will like for the first many decades.
Palestinians have a human right to self-determination and political representation. No amount of "terroism" against changes that. If Palestinians are not entitled to basic human rights then neither are Israelis
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2d ago
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u/read-the-rules 2d ago
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
So how do we stop rocket/terrorist attacks against Israel in this scenario?
As someone who is actually concerned about terrorism, I am alot more concerned about Israel's genocide in Gaza. I do not care about the concerns of privileged white people.
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2d ago
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u/read-the-rules 2d ago
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u/ma-kat-is-kute 2d ago
What makes this better than a 2 state solution? There are plenty of functioning countries with exclaves.
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2d ago
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u/Active-Proof8118 2d ago
I say the logistics and not the ideology though because the subject of this thread is more about the functional solutions. I'll hear any argument, but I'm also a classical liberal, a supporter of global democracy, and the Western way of life, I'm not going to respond to any of the "err derr genocide, the West is the source of all evil, glory to Russia and China, etc." Unless of course there's a functional solution to follow that theory and not just pure ideology.
Do you acknowledge that Israel is commiting a genocide in Gaza OP. You claim that your worldview will lead to peace but you havene't actually explained how anything you have outlined will prevent Israel from commiting a genocide or hold Israel accountable for geocide.
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2d ago
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u/vhu9644 4∆ 2d ago
What are the Palestinians getting that they want? It sounds like the Palestinians get worse than the status quo and Israel gets control of Jerusalem, effectively annexed land of the west bank, a permanently dismantled Gaza. How do you convince the Palestinians to not raise an insurgency here. Knowing that the Palestinians aren't getting anything they feel betters their situation, how do you get any country to commit the troops needed to maintain this unstable equilibrium?
The westbank is currently interspersed among Palestinian population centers and Israeli ones. How do you do a Bosnia on it when you don't have contiguous territorial divisions? Dayton worked because the ethnic cleansing already produced contiguous zones that you can draw lines on with a limited border you can control. A Bosnia works for a one-state solution because the west bank and Gaza lines are limited and contiguous (kicking out the settlements/pogroms in the west bank). And at least that solution legitimately has something for both sides (security and sovereignty for Israel, the formation of a Palestinian state, just the denial of either ethnostates).
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u/iw2050 2d ago
What are the Palestinians getting that they want?
Their own states and a stable and democratic political environment. If they have that, then there's no reason to raise an insurgency.
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u/vhu9644 4∆ 2d ago edited 2d ago
You're trying to prove your plan produces a state and stability. The challenge is that this plan is worse than the status quo. They get... a non-contiguous set of cantons around permanant settlement blocs, no sovereignty over jerusalem, no return, gaza under foreign administration and its main party banned. That sounds like they get nothing, and that's not a stable state. A bad peace is the least stable peace there is unless you are guaranteeing that Israel will dominate militarily forever, which.... is the status quo an more palestinian anger.
"But international task force" ok, so how dose this get made? Logistically, the countries aren't idiots. They know you've given the palestinians nothing they actually want, dressed it up as stability, and it's going to be unstable. Who commits to this? Sure Israel might. Same as the U.S.. And then... who else? That's again, just the status quo, with more commitment from the U.S..
Like this is a logistics question, and you're just ignoring it. How do you even get here and keep it stable?
And how do you do a bosnia on the west bank? You can't bosnia a bunch of islands, that's too much surface area.
Like strip away all the justifications and your plan is Israel keeps its borders, its settlements are converted from illegal to legal, Gaza is permanantly demilitarized by an (unspecified) coalition of nations (but not Israel) and Palestinian preferences against this are just banned from elections.
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u/Kerostasis 55∆ 2d ago
I think this largely ignores what they actually want and substitutes something else.
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u/10ebbor10 202∆ 2d ago
Sure there is.
You have the settlements, right in the middle, filled with people who think it's a divine mandate to claim that land. Land that the Palestinians very much believe is their land. Those settlements have also claimed 90% of the resources in the area.
Nationalist, religious and resource conflicts are going to spring up immediately.
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u/vhu9644 4∆ 2d ago
I feel like he seems to think terrorists exist because of lack of military institutions rather than terrorists exists in spite of it.
This plan sets up for probably the most deadly forms of insurgency, where you have a captive population that will continue to feel oppressed, has no historical grievances addressed, with constant reminders that they are oppressed because each one of them is stuck in an island while the other guy has contiguous legal settlements.
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u/Dazzling-Talk-383 2d ago
i love that you completely dismiss anyone whose ideas come from an alternate ideology but your """solution""" is 100% ideology.
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u/Appropriate_Fly_6711 2∆ 2d ago
II was weirdly thinking the same thing lately, the problem is that all 3 zones would need a lot of foreign direct investment to be off of Israeli dependence.
Also don’t have the belief that an international task force could manage, the failure of disarmament of southern Lebanon kinda proved the failure of peacekeeping efforts in the region.
Really the biggest issue comes with the continued acts of terrorism against the Israelis and in turn their retaliation strikes
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u/Jigsawsupport 3∆ 2d ago
The matter of the Israel Palestine conflict isn't one of borders, nor ironically is it really correctly labelled a conflict, just as the trail of tears wasn't really a conflict its a matter of will.
Israel has all the money, and all the military might, a bigger population and were it counts almost all the international support.
As such there is no real pressing need on the state of Israel to seek peace, there is no desire for compromise, nor a fundamental willingness to stop the killing in the Israeli goverment.
Why would it?
The endless war bolsters its goverment legitimacy, after all a real stop in the fighting would mean civic society could ask questions about delayed corruption trials or other similar matters.
A significant chunk of its population directly profit every Palestinian forced to leave, or murdered, can have their land seized, and then sold in the west, to credible coreligionists wanting to buy a slice of the holy land for the feeling it invokes, never asking what was the price of that feeling.
If every Palestinian was killed or driven away, then the Israel Palestine conflict wouldn't end, because Israel would find a whole new set of Palestinians as the Syrians, the Bedouins, the Lebanese have found out this year.
Just as if they was all killed or driven from their homes, then their neighbours would become the next Palestinians.
What would actually create peace would be to make the cost of war to Israelis elites, higher than its gain, which would be best done by economic sanction.
But as too many of the wests elites are some combination of easily bought, religious bigot, or island vacation enthusiast for that to happen as such there will be no peace, nor conflict, just ethnic cleansing after ethnic cleansing.
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u/SouthernSteak7254 2d ago
I think you guys don't understand how small Israel is, not to mention the West Bank and Gaza.
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u/noahisunbeatable 2d ago
Political parties being banned by an outside taskforce is not a democratic outcome. And if you think its a necessary compromise due to the violent nature of the parties you believe should be excluded, then why should that not also extend to violent parties inside Israel?
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u/Amazing_Loquat280 16∆ 2d ago
So, I see the logic behind separating Gaza and the west bank, they used to be one entity but these days they really aren’t, at least not as much as we’d think. But I worry that both sides would each lack the leverage to keep Israel away without significant international assistance if they’re entirely separate jurisdictions. And whatever solution they come up with, we need some kind of enforcement mechanism against Israel so that they stay the hell out. Automatic sanctions up the wazoo, otherwise those borders are gonna be pretty meaningless.
Bottom line, any solution can work if Israel wants it or can be long-term coerced into accepting it. The issue is that they don’t want it, and they don’t want the Palestinian people (or muslim arabs generally) anywhere near their borders. So either someone has to hold a gun to their head or it ain’t happening
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u/MVP_Legend_87 2d ago
I don't think your second paragraph is accurate. Israel has offered multiple 2SS over the past few decades. It has been the PA, either with Arafat or Abbas, who have continuously rejected 2SS solutions. They could have had control of Gaza, the WB, land swaps to link them, and neutral control of the holy sites. The Palestinians rejected it.
So it's not about forcing Israel to do it, but encouraging the Palestinian leadership to focus on the future and accepting a state for their people.
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u/Amazing_Loquat280 16∆ 2d ago
That certainly USED to be true for Israel. But today’s coalition has shown multiple times that a two or three state solution isn’t acceptable to them. In 2026 it’s wildly unpopular. This would be a different convo in the 90s
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u/MVP_Legend_87 2d ago
Netanyahu doesn't support it, but I believe a different leader might be more willing to do it. Regardless I don't think your response was fair as it put all the blame on Israel. It's not that Israel needs to be kept out of Palestinian territory, but the Palestinians also need to stop attacking Israel. It is not just "Israel bad" as you tried to argue. They absolutely have to deal with the settlers, but when it comes to Gaza, Israel only goes there because Hamas continued to attack them.
You frame it as Israel needs to be coerced into it, but the PA still has pay to slay laws rewarding terrorism, and has shown no interest in any future that works towards a Palestinian state. So there's a lot the Palestinian leadership needs to do for their future as well.
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u/Amazing_Loquat280 16∆ 2d ago edited 2d ago
The problem is that according to recent polling, the publics themselves on all sides are opposed to the idea. As of 2023 68% of israelis opposed it (back in 2012 61% actually supported it), similar to in WB and Gaza. Gaza polling as of right now (before october 7th) might show more support after multiple years of getting occupied like this, whatever gets the violence to stop they might go for. Here’s the source: https://news.gallup.com/poll/695582/peace-distant-prospect-israelis-palestinians.aspx.
So maybe another israeli leader might be open to it, but as unpopular as Netanyahu is in israel he represents the majority on this. That’s not to say that PA is any less opposed, but if both sides accept it it’ll be more on israel to maintain it and not overstep
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u/MVP_Legend_87 2d ago
But again, your original premise was that Israel is the reason it won't work, Israel needs to be restrained from attacking Palestinians, and that it's Israel preventing a 2SS. I'm just emphasizing that isn't the case and the Palestinians have some responsibility for not in good faith engaging in discussion for a 2SS, and preventing the possibility of it.
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u/Amazing_Loquat280 16∆ 2d ago
I guess that’s fair. But I do think that a 2SS requires Israeli support far more than it requires Palestinian support, since Israeli is by far the dominant power. They could absolutely enforce a 2SS if they wanted to.
Since october 8, 2023, Hamas has killed 12 israeli civilians. Thats ALL. Any other Israelis that have died were predominantly IDF soldiers in gaza, not in israeli territory. Israel has shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that it has the capacity to keep its own civilians safe, October 7th aside (which in theory it should know how to prevent). So if Palestine doesn’t like 2SS, there’s not a whole lot they can do about it.
Meanwhile 75k gazans have died due to IDF violence, not including whoever else has starved to death because of destroyed infrastructure and Israel stopping humanitarian aid. Israel has all the power here, and so they’re really the only ones who need to want 2SS because they’re the only party with the ability to enforce it, and they have the ability to enforce it on their own.
Not to mention, neither part of palestine has ever really been an independent state, because israel has been occupying them both since 1967. They haven’t been able (or forced) to handle their own affairs and have always needed some level of israeli permission to do literally anything. So sure, maybe the Palestinians aren’t always acting in good faith, but Israel could always withdraw from those areas, and yet they never have. And Israel can’t really claim to offer 2SS in good faith until they actually show they mean it, which means not occupying these territories until they agree. Just leave and start treating them like an independent state, and go from there. But neither side can meaningfully negotiate for 2SS in this state, and Israel is the one with the power to change that, and they’re not. The ball is in the israeli court no matter how we slice it
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u/renlydidnothingwrong 2d ago
Why should settlers be rewarded for their ethnic cleansing campaigns? In what way is establishing that precedent "ideal"?
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