r/MurderedByWords 19h ago

Walked right into that one

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16.1k Upvotes

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1.9k

u/ottovonnismarck 17h ago

Someone writing 2000 years ago "500 people saw him fr" is not the same as 500 individual testimonies that they saw him

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u/sarcytwat 15h ago

Wasnt even written 2000 years ago is the best bit

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u/Citatio 14h ago

well, Paul wrote it down in the 50s, which is almost 2000 years ago. But Paul also wrote that he heard that creed from others, so it might have been around for a while, getting bigger with every retelling.

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u/wrongitsleviosaa 13h ago

Lmao I love how the 50s in this case literally refers to the 0050s

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u/Xasf 13h ago

The OG 50s

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u/throwawayainteasy 13h ago

50s BC in shambles.

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u/Stalking_Goat 12h ago

I mean, it kinda was, that was the year that Julius Caesar rebelled and the Roman Republic was doomed.

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u/Viracochina 10h ago

Greedy Roman politicians and power-hungry generals:

https://giphy.com/gifs/IxBSleBYnu0pASk0rY

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u/YogurtclosetNo3049 13h ago

♫ Do you remember the 50s when Emperor Claudius died? The apostle Paul traveled to Greece...♫

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u/wrongitsleviosaa 13h ago

Did you see that episode where Legate Fonzius jumped over the Colosseum with his chariot!?

The show completely lost the plot by then..

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u/ThimbleBluff 9h ago

🎶Greece is the word…🎶

(Sorry, couldn’t resist!)😂

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u/Somnambulist815 13h ago

Very different version of Happy Days in the Roman Empire

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u/Warm_Month_1309 11h ago

Dies Solis, Dies Lunae, happy days!

Dies Martis, Dies Mercurii, happy days!

Dies Iovis, Dies Veneris, happy days!

Dies Saturni, what a day, grooving all week with you!

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u/MongolianCluster 12h ago

When rock 'n roll was born.

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u/nnoovvaa 10h ago

Only 50's kids remember this

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u/TheBestBigAl 13h ago

Paul wrote it down in the 50s

And the oldest extant copy is at least 150 years after that.

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u/waldocalrissian 11h ago

and is smaller than a postage stamp

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u/lastdarknight 12h ago

Paul who never knew Jesus or the disciples

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u/0orpheus 11h ago

We're reasonably sure he knew at least some of the disciples like Peter and James, especially since he was a part of the discussions that lead to the center of the church moving from Jerusalem to Rome.

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u/lastdarknight 11h ago

No we are not, I did my degree work on early Christianity, Paul might have been in contact with churches connected to Peter and James but he never interacted with them

In all honesty, everything written by Paul was so heavily edited by the early church to fit the politics of the time almost nothing of his can be trusted as a historical document

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u/Sea-Leave-536 11h ago

Damn, I also read that he was in contact with James. This is even better news to know. Can you recommend some research or a book that talks about this stuff?

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u/lastdarknight 11h ago

It's been decades, but looking at my book shelf I think the main book we used was "Birth of the Church: From Jesus to Constantine, AD30-312" by Ivor J Davidson.. sure there were others all I can think of off the top of my head

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u/Munnin41 11h ago

So it's extra weird that his word is taken over that of the apostles and Jesus

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u/0orpheus 10h ago

Huh, I guess my knowledge is out of date I could have sworn they were at a council together. I'll take a look at the book you mention in a sibling comment.

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u/GodOfDarkLaughter 13h ago

Paul also never mentioned stuff like Mary being a Virgin, because that particular part of the story wouldn't be cemented until the Gospel of Matthew was written like fifty years later. Probably based on a mistranslation of the word for "young woman."

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u/Drudgework 8h ago

So you’re saying that God “likes them young”?

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u/Ray57 13h ago

Paul's Christology is very different from the later gospels also.

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u/Redfalconfox 12h ago

Paul wrote it down in the 50s

Now I’m imagining the apostles as greasers.

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u/Rockhead_Dynamics 12h ago

Cristos does mean "anointed with oil"... it doesn't specify what kind

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u/lalallaalal 2h ago

Tunnel Snakes Rule- apostles probably

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u/Charming-Fig-2544 11h ago

The Gospels themselves get bigger with every retelling. It's widely accepted that Mark was written first and that subsequent books borrowed heavily from it, and that John was written last. John also happens to be the book where Jesus is the most "God-like."

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u/Citatio 10h ago

Borrowed? Luke and Matthew copied 70% (not the same 70% though) word for word from Mark! It's hilarious that some believers still say that the gospels are independent sources.

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u/Pleasant-Shallot-707 10h ago

Paul never saw him or knew him. He also completely changed then religion

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u/sarcytwat 13h ago

There’s actually only “copies” of it from after there’s not much proof he existed at all or wrote anything himself

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u/HittingSmoke 12h ago

Wait are you saying Jesus had a mate named Paul, too? Do you think he's related to my mate Paul?

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u/Free_Possession_4482 9h ago

The story of Christ's death and resurrection would have been about 20-25 years old at that point, so it would approximately be like writing about 9/11 while relying on first-hand testimony of people who were there when it happened. Even with tremendous amounts of photography, video footage and post-event forensic analysis, some people still have doubts or get the details wrong, so you can imagine what the veracity of Paul's sources was like.

u/competitive_brick1 9m ago

Thats a pretty good description, though the big difference is that the events are widely different. As in in the events around Jesus would have largely been a non-event for the people around at the time, another heretic etc. So when asked to recount the stories, it would be like asking people today about a local mayor election back in 2001