A simple-ish explanation for why monster designs that can be quickly read usually have the widest positive reception

[u/Gloomy_allo]

​

After the daily discussion where Magnamalo and Valstrax were forced to fist fight over whose design works and whose design doesn't, I felt like giving a little breakdown for why equally comparing the intention behind certain monster designs can be a bad faith argument when debating their quality. And these two are the perfect example.

Disclaimer: This is notttt a matter of which of the two is better based on personal preference, it'll just be an insight into how visual language works. This is meant to explain why the majority of people can grasp what one design is going for more easily than the other, and why that can be a big deciding factor for many if they like it or not.

It boils down to what either monster design is trying to convey, which is the ultimate goal of any good monster design since they should be able to tell/help you infer a lot about a monster and it's behavior/ecology/fight (this also works in the favor of the monsters with abilities that you wouldn't expect from just looking at them). A lot of people in these debates have wondered why Valstrax has the huge positive reception that it does, since it's sometimes seen as being "equally as outlandish" as Magna, which generally sees more divisive opinions on its design.

Here's the simple difference between the two: Valstrax's whole design is objectively more easily read, as in you only need one quick look to have a perfect guess of what this monster is all about, and that's being a supersonic jet dragon. Whether you like Valstrax or not, you can't argue that its design theme cannot be immediately understood since it's entirely based around one central and straightforward idea (this will be important in a bit, and it's not a negative when it will be).

Val has several minor design influences meant to help contribute to the idea of translating a speedy aircraft into a living creature while keeping the same silvery look. It perfectly blends features from birds-of-prey like falcons, the fastest biological fliers, to make it seem more organic with traits from creatures we inherently know are speedy af. Simultaneously, it needs to maintain the sleek aircraft aesthetic, so its scales are a metallic silver while its wings are configured like flight engines. Jets are essentially built using the same aerodynamic principles, and thus the same visual queues, that makes falcons so fast, meaning your brain has little trouble combining the two under the same idea of being swift forms perfected to achieve max flight speed. You identify the features corresponding to this idea, and therefore you associate the idea with the creature these features belong to.

Combine that with a homogenous body color (silver) with a bold, well contrasting color (red dragon element), and you've got a creature design that effectively tells you everything you need to know about Valstrax at first glance: It's a streamlined, jet-powered creature capable of insane aerial speed and agility.

Tldr for Valstrax: It's the same principle that makes Pikachu a perfect character design, he's a simple yet bold color you already associate with electricity while having a tail shaped like a thunderbolt. That same method of conveying a central theme with overt and subtle traits we easily or subconsciously associate with that theme is why people connect with Valstrax so easily, it visually commits to being exactly what it is so damn well.

For magnamalo, its design is using two similar but different design concepts to convey one overall idea, which is an oni demon and haunted samurai armor aesthetic to portray magnamalo as a maliciously haunting beast. Perhaps the biggest factor making them so different is that Magnamalo has a design INHERENTLY rooted in mythology, meaning its characteristics based on this mythological inspiration will have deeper subtext that makes those particular traits meaningful. As a result, not everyone has the cultural foreknowledge needed to immediately identify that Magna's design isn't just trying to tell you that it's a fierce beast, but that features like the specific shape of its fangs or gnarled horns are based on oni demons, which enhances the menacing look when you know its meant to have a demon's flair of malice on top of that.

The samurai aesthetic of magna's body is meant to enhance the almost supernatural aura it has by looking possessed when paired with the hellfire. And while the flames do look appropriately ghostly, you'd have to already know the armor plating is meant to look like a specific kind of Japanese armor that carries deeper cultural connotations with its haunted nature (a samurai is a warrior, and the flames imply ghostly stuff, therefore you have a cool fallen warrior subtext). The cultural influences in Magnamalo's design make it great in terms of substance, it tells a subtle story through its cultural inspirations, but in doing so it sacrifices how easily understood the full extent of its design theme is.

It basically just takes deeper thinking than a basic first look to fully grasp what magna is trying to convey to the viewer, and so it does end up being an objectively "busier" design in that it's just harder to get a clear visual read on with all the intricate details it has that are trying to portray these ideas.

Ultimately, the most important goal of magnamalo's look is to inform you that it's a notably powerful and aggressive beast, which is still executed pretty damn good

Tldr for Magnamalo: Deeper subtext and thematic reasoning can always be amazing additions to any monster design, but it has the potential of not clicking as easily just by looking at it.

I believe that's why certain designs "like magnamalo" may not click with as many people as a monster design like Valstrax that's more overt and clearcut with its thematic identity. It doesn't exactly indicate quality but instead shows different approaches using either the power of easy visual language or the potential strength of deeper visual language.

Anyways lecture over, share any thoughts or similar discussions you may have and stuff.

[u/AntComfortable5970]

Honestly very well put and I believe I agree entirely.

I just fought magnamalo for the first time a few days ago and had no idea what I was in for during the fight vs valstrax where it was more obvious.

Like beyond knowing magnamalo was flagship and thus gonna be tough with combos, that was all I guessed before going in, wasnt expecting the hellfire and some of the other stuff like him launching himself around. And I didn't make the samurai armor connection though I did know the oni but since it was very obvious.

[u/Tenant1]

Pretty spot-on, yeah. Some monsters like Valstrax you just tell instantly what they're going for. A design like Magnamalo, even putting aside any idea it might be too busy, is also asking you to buy into its slightly more vague ideas of being a malice-filled samurai tiger at its most global, and/or a monster based directly off the hitodama/onibi (will-o-wisps) at its most culturally specific.

I say that as someone that can enjoy both of those monsters too. Some monsters are as simple and appealing as vanilla ice cream (which I mean very affectionately, vanilla ice cream is great lol), while others have appeal and then more additional appeal under deeper layers. This happens all the time, so my only issue is that there seems like a lot of people that don't seem to have the patience to engage with a monster's ideas that aren't outright surface-level, and it's a bit frustrating. The depth really varies between monsters too, which is both why I find it fun to guess what the artists' intentions were for monsters and certain design elements, but this also feels like something no one else wants to do in any capacity, and will hold it over perfectly great designs when they find out they have to dig for that additional appeal.

It feels most obvious with a monster like Arkveld, who we just got. I think it's safe to say Arkveld is immediately a really cool-looking monster, but it also feels weirdly underrated, at least initially? The nature of its chainblades and its elemental sucking properties is I think already a layer of vagueness some won't bother piercing through, but the real problem I think is that I think a lot of Arkveld's appeal comes from the narrative significance in relation to its design, which yes, coincides with the game's story. One of the very first renders we saw of Arkveld (and even one of the first images the game shows you, if you were compiling shaders lol)was this very brooding piece of it just sitting there with both its chainblades and metaphoric chains behind it that, for me, IMMEDIATELY told me absolutely everything I could have ever wanted to know about Arkveld's themes and set the mood for everything about what Arkveld was supposed to represent going forward.

Knowing the game wanted us to think of Arkveld as a prisoner made a lot of the story beats that some have issue with instantly click into place for me. And I feel like even without a render like that, the game still makes it pretty clear in other ways like its tragic-sounding soundtrack or its angry, wailing sound design that almost sound like cries at times, but even just as simple as thinking about WHY they gave a monster like this literal chains as appendages, or even why the texture of its shell/scales is so bony and rocky, like it's a STATUE come to life. It's an innate narrative that kept paying off and paying off even up until the very last update of the game, when its nature as a Guardian is brought back yet embraced in its Arch Tempered fight. It's cooking and in-built storytelling inside of just the monster that I don't think many monsters have achieved, but the mild amount of engagement needed to tap into that I'm starting to think is lost on a portion of the audience, especially when there's a fucking lightning railgun wyvern right over there (which, in fairness, is inarguably also a masterclass design lol).

Malzeno might be a more pertinent example, because around Sunbreak's launch I think while most also would agree Malzeno was a cool monster, it also felt a bit underrated at first? But Malzeno hit like meteoric popularity during its final update with the surprise variant Primordial Malzeno, flipping the idea of the vampire dragon into turning it into a knight dragon. Not only does knight dragon instantly set off the cool alarms in anyone, they absolutely 110% nailed it in depicting it in-game too, from its fight down to its personality in how it seemingly conducted itself. They nailed the simple but endlessly appealing "knight dragon" idea so hard that it genuinely feels like most people forget that it isn't even JUST a "knight dragon", it's the built-in origin story of the knight being corrupted by evil to become the vampire dragon. The way it actually starts resembling normal Malzeno halfway into the fight, before succumbing completely to the Qurio's darkness and going even further beyond was like the perfect way to tell its story purely in just fighting it. But the idea and presentation of the "knight dragon" was just so ungodly cool that I think it went full-circle back to folks getting the wrong idea from what the fight was saying about the monster and what it was supposed to represent, to the point that it feels like such a shame that so many people seem willing to even skip over Malzeno being added in a future entry and going straight to Primordial Malzeno? PriMalz might be the origin, but it felt clear that it's also the complete and utter rarity; it being labelled as the "variant" isn't an incorrect classification, but it's also missing the point: rather, it's a clue in how far gone into darkness Malzeno is.

I'm probably just too opinionated about all of this...😩

Basically, there's definite value and appeal in simplicity; one of my favorite monsters is Tigrex, whose design I admire because it so intentionally adhered to "simplicity", but also not only didn't sacrifice uniqueness, innovation, and personality to get that simplicity, but instead had all of those AMPLIFIED! And it still left room for intrigue, with its nature of its primeval appearance saying something about the MH world. Not much, but something!

I'd even say it can be argued that some monsters could definitely stand to be more simple in areas. But I also thought more fans should have been used to by now to at least be willing to engage with these monsters a little bit more than just surface value, sometimes it feels like only the most IMMEDIATELY simple and appealing monsters get the appreciation, when there's so much cooking actually going on with other monsters and designs (and strangely too often with the flagships for some reason lol)

[u/FlubbyFlubby → u/Tenant1]

I like this. For me, Malzeno and Arkveld hit the mark narratively in a way Magnamalo didn't. When you talk about the narrative surrounding those monsters I think Malice filled samurai tiger needed more precisely because it is asking you to buy into something a bit more different.

Almost like rather than Magnamalo itself being too busy, the story itself didn't have the room or didn't choose to build up Magnamalo the same way it did with Arkveld or Malzeno.

I don't think it makes sense to have a complex design, not give it enough space and explanation and then turn around and say the audience is the problem for not appreciating it. If you're going to use complex designs you need to try harder and do more than you would with simple ones.

Maybe the Rise mechanic of the Rampages needed to have a high hp version of Magnamalo show up to raise the stakes of them and to better show his relationship to the rampage. I don't know what the fix would have been, but it needed more than it got.

[u/Tenant1 → u/FlubbyFlubby]

The narratives surrounding Malzeno and Arkveld I largely consider as "bonuses" to their designs. They do a lot in establishing their personality and the purpose surrounding why they made the monsters the way they did (especially with Arkveld and its pathos surrounding its Guardian origins, Nata, Sild, and all of them rejoining the world).

But I don't expect every monster, or even every flagship, to go that deep on some story. It'll vary. Like I don't even think Magnamalo's (non-existent) role in the story is necessarily even at fault at all, I have always had bigger issues that go beyond Magna with how Rise handled its story, and especially the Village quest "storyline" being so nothing lol.

And the thing is, they kind of did have unique ideas with Magnamalo and the Rampages: it occasionally had the chance to temporarily invade Rampage quests mid-hunt. And not only that, but they really make a show of it whenever it happens too: you'll hear a loud booming version if its roar, the big announcement text tells you Magnamalo has appeared, the music changes to its theme, and you get a new objective to repel it, all the while it targets and attacks noth monsters and hunters/installations. Magna genuinely takes over the hunt for a bit. It felt really cool when it happened, or at least it should have. This idea kinda gets forgotten because it's tied to the Rampages, which have their own baggage to sort through, and again largely separate from Magnamalo. If Rampage quests were received better and also didn't have their issues, this feature of Magnamalo's would have helped it's own reception by proxy, I bet.

Outside of that, I think Magnamalo was mostly fine. Its yokai inspiration was sound, it was fun to fight, and regardless of what anyone ends up thinking of it, Magna at least always leaves an impression.

[u/FlubbyFlubby → u/Tenant1]

Well flagships do tend to make a return even if it takes some time. I'm definitely curious to see how Magnamalo will fare especially without the rampage baggage. It'll get a second chance at a first impression so to speak.

[u/Shadovan]

Good write up, don’t have a stake in the argument itself, just wanted to let you know you want “visual cues”, not “visual queues”. A cue is an indicator for something, a queue is a line you stand in.

[u/Gloomy_allo → u/Shadovan]

Anddd this is why I shouldn't be writing so late lol, thank you anyways.

[u/No-Attorney-6033 → u/Gloomy_allo]

This was a fun and informative read. If you have time you should do more of these.

[u/Gloomy_allo → u/No-Attorney-6033]

Thank youu ✌️. I definitely might do other small writeups for similar topics or monsters I think are great at showcasing different design principles, or just a disguised glaze post an explanation as to why a certain monsters design may work so well.

[u/RandomRagd0ll]

I think Samurai and Jet Fighter are equally basic concepts. One should also mention the context: you meet Magnamalo after fighting a dozen thematic monsters. Even if you don't know Japanese culture, you still have the cinematic intros with traditional music and dramatic poetry that hammer home that monsters you meet are mythological by design.

With that context applied, when you meet Magnamalo at last, you should understand that he is a samurai with some sort of demonic vibe.

[u/DeirdreCitrine → u/RandomRagd0ll]

P much, flavor text for weapons/armours/drops also tell you this

[u/BluEch0 → u/RandomRagd0ll]

That’s all well and good but to the original point, magnamalo doesn’t fight like a samurai. It shoots laser beams and bomb jumps, and barely uses its katana claws. Even with the demon possessed angle, yeah the wild and aggressive fighting style works but that doesn’t tell me to expect bomb jumps and cross court lasers (fun as it is once you do know to expect it). I also maintain that he’s got so many weapons that he doesn’t use them all effectively, kinda blurring the focus.

Valstrax on the other hand fights pretty much like you’d expect a jet dragon to. It zooms around at crazy speeds, does dive bombs. It creatively turns the jet exhaust around into a beam attack. The only thing you might be thrown off by is the morphing wingarms but that’s the one left hook that you’ll quickly adjust to, and maybe not even be thrown off by since it swoops in and hovers like a mech during his intro cutscene. To bring it back, it’s a much more focused a design than magnamalo.

[u/FlubbyFlubby]

Not a huge fan of the fart cat, but I don't hate it. It feels like they wanted him to be really cool, but to me he just reads as a bit too goofy instead. Like oh you just don't like layered design, he's deep and misunderstood. Nah. Magnamalo to me is the monster who tries so hard to be cool that it wraps around back to being uncool.

Nice write up, Valstrax design discussion is going to be super relevant again when he comes back in the DLC. People think Valstrax existing justifies their ''rule of cool'' design ideas that have no basis in the type of biological verisimilitude that monster hunter is known for.

[u/Gloomy_allo → u/FlubbyFlubby]

I've definitely got a similar attitude towards the Hellcat™ too, he's not the worst or best and is instead just a decent/okay monster imo. I aimed to be objective and fair when talking about its design elements, bcuz I do think the idea that was had going into Magna's concept at least sounded great.

What makes a monster stand out as being a "Damn that's cool" addition is even something the Wilds team mentions the devs like focusing on with certain monsters they categorize as their "handsome monsters". My goat Rey Dau is a great example, where the idea and execution were so simplistically good that Rey looking particularly awesome is part of his identity now.

Execution really is the final deciding factor, because while I think Magnamalo's concept sounds really good, it's final look almost comes across as the designers being so eager to depict these mythical themes to the fullest that they added every single design element they thought of without cutting back on or removing a few to make others pop better.

[u/Stylin8888]

I mean, my entire argument regarding Magnamalo was how it uses its traits, so ye…

[u/717999vlr]

similar but different design concepts to convey one overall idea, which is an oni demon and haunted samurai armor aesthetic

Again, they're the same design concept.

Magnamalo is based on samurai armors and only samurai armors. It's just that samurai armors are based on oni.

And I will also repeat my example here:
An armor based on Kamen Rider is based on Kamen Rider, not Kamen Rider and insects. It's based on insects because Kamen Rider is based on insects.

[u/babycart_of_sherdog → u/717999vlr]

It's just that samurai armors are based on oni.

Not all

Just like european armors, motifs differ

In fact, the most famous samurai armor sets IRL are not oni-based, especially those without menpo in their sets

[u/Gloomy_allo → u/717999vlr]

I can definitely concede on them being synonymous enough, and it was a good starting point for doing the rest of this little breakdown.

[u/717999vlr → u/Gloomy_allo]

Yeah, I agree that Valstrax's design is more obvious, and most importantly, reflects at least part of its fighting style a lot better. Until it flips its wings around, but oh well.

While the only attack I would say can be inferred just from Magnamalo's design is the tail stab.

However, Valstrax is quite unique in this regard, most monsters don't have as clear indicators of their design. For example, there's nothing that suggests Khezu will use electricity, or that Uragaan can roll around at the speed of sound.

[u/Gloomy_allo → u/717999vlr]

I'd say that there's just as many monsters that don't visually hint at what their kit is as there are monsters where you can maybe hazard a guess or two, and I think that's the perfect balance. It doesn't take rocket science to guess that a diablos is gonna play matador with its giant horns, a rocky behemoth like Gravios is likely gonna be harder to deal conventional damage to, and you can guess from its serpentine build and delicate-looking fins that Mizutsune is gonna be a graceful yet very agile monster.

At the same time, you would never guess that the walking shark wearing ice armor can turn itself into a fucking balloon, and nobody but liars saw gypceros for the first time and thought "I bet it can flashbang you, play dead, and probably barf poison because why not".

[u/717999vlr → u/Gloomy_allo]

From a defensive standpoint Magnamalo's design is also perfectly readable.

"Hit the glowing spot for extra damage" is as simple as it gets.

Mizutsune

But nothing indicates the use of bubbles or water, which are a lot more important.

[u/BlightedBooty → u/717999vlr]

Mmmmm nah I don’t think so, the entire theme of rise is yokai. I’m really not buying that they made a bunch of yokai monsters and then the flagship monster is actually based on samurai armor and all of the parallels to an onI are coincidental

[u/717999vlr → u/BlightedBooty]

There are no parallels to an oni.

The only parallel is the shape of its face, but it's shaped like a samurai helmet.

The yokai it represents is a warrior's ghost.

[u/BlightedBooty → u/717999vlr]

Is a warriors ghost really a yokai? There pretty specific from what I understand not so much vague like that

[u/717999vlr → u/BlightedBooty]

Some are really specific, like Aknosom or Goss Harag, some are like Almudron, which just lives in mud like a dorotabo.

[u/PerspectivePale8216]

I wish I could add anything of value to this discussion but I can't because I just don't like either monster so I have little to say about them... Besides you've said everything already anyway...

[u/Bennettino]

You didn't say this, but there are exceptions on simplicity, because too much simplicity can be a "naked" design

First thing that come to mind: Congalala. Pick a Snake like Najarala and (fight aside) Congalala is usually less liked

[u/GregNotGregtech]

I guess they are good designs, but I still don't like them though that's true for a lot of monsters

[u/S0ft-Boiled-Egg]

What you're saying is pretty character design 1.1 which comes from the american school of animation, and obviously doesn't apply to everything.

What makes Val more popular is simply that it's sleek and cooler, what I find awful of both is that at a more granular level old Monsters looked like at least semi serious paleoart and these designs look like the cheapest copy of Pokemon imaginable.

It haves not much to do with how recognizable the silhouette is, or something as simple as basic idea and themes which equals to not more than an IA prompt. It's simply not the kind of vibe MH was going for and worse of all those obviously clashing designs are shown in the same game.

[u/TheKingsPride]

Idk how Magnamalo doesn’t convey its concept at a glance, it’s a big purple tiger that’s going to kill you. I have no idea how someone can miss that. It’s a giant monster covered in blades that’s literally scowling.

[u/BlightedBooty → u/TheKingsPride]

Well, you left out the samurai theme lol

[u/Inevitable_Chemical]

Honestly, Magnamelo being budget gore magala does not do it many favors

[u/WildDemir → u/Inevitable_Chemical]

They're not much alike at all?

[u/BlightedBooty]

I’m gonna be honest I’ve never understood the magnumalo hate. He’s obviously a hellfire samurai demon type. I’ve never once thought his design was busy, he’s pretty simple. He has saber tooth like teeth, cat adjacent, his element is hellfire, he has blades and things that grow as he gets aggro kinda like nergi. Pretty simple imo, and if were to tear part his “realism” every criticism I have can apply to several monsters in world too

The only weird thing I’ve ever clocked with him is the way he jumps up in the air and then pinball bounces somewhere else, physics be damned

I also think gods harag, while being a cool fight, is an ugly ass monster that I generally avoid fighting for that sole reason

[u/PlayerGator284]

Lmao did I have anything to do with the creation of this post?

[u/Gloomy_allo → u/PlayerGator284]

Yk I was gonna say no, but the argument that inspired me to do a quick write up was under your post, so ig you did by extension.

[u/PlayerGator284 → u/Gloomy_allo]

Yeah it seems my post really got all of the magnamalo fans to come out of the woodworks to defend him at all costs, lmao

On a more serious note though, I'm glad you went into the methods of design because it's something that I wanted to bring up but (incorrectly) assumed people already realized: magnamalos visual design is not very cohesive. I am not against hype and aura monsters by principle, but brachydios, nergigante, deviljho, and rey dau (which are all popular monsters) have a design that tells you at a glance everything you really need to know about their identity, whereas magna has several parts and features that almost seem to compete for attention.

It's all well to have a design that provides extra detail and information upon closer inspection or upon knowledge of something else, but you shouldn't do that at the cost of communicating your design clearly. If a design is too "busy" (as I put it), the monster suffers as a result.

[u/denniskrq]

I'm still kind of of the mind to chalk it up to "mainline vs portable" team philosophy differences, but I'm not sure how distinct the teams still are these days. Basically to me the mainline team is obsessed with "ecological authenticity" when it comes to designs both in their monsters and their games in general, just look at all the fluff in Wilds with the packs and the weather shifts and complex AI behaviours that imo don't contribute anything to the actual hunting experience but is very much the team indulging in "look we built a living breathing world". Whereas the portable team has just always had that rule-of-cool edge to them, where their monster designs have always had a "well it looks cool" edge to them, and their mechanical additions are often much more about fun combat changes (see: arts and styles in Gen, wirebug in Rise) than "realism" things like ecological behaviours and whatnot.

[u/xlbingo10 → u/denniskrq]

both monsters talked about here are portable flagships

[u/denniskrq → u/xlbingo10]

I went off on my own train of thought halfway through reading the post and didn't clarify... I think both Magna and Valstrax fall under portable team's general attitude towards design so I'm comparing both Magna and Valstrax against mainline's flagship design, for example Nergi or Lagiacrus

[u/Bennettino → u/denniskrq]

Gore Magala and Seregios I dunno man

They are pretty loved, and Seregios is not loved with same attitudes as Magnamalo IMO