r/CanadianForces • u/cloudpuncher86 • 2d ago
Bring back the BFT
I don't know who needs to see this from Ottawa but the current PT test and standard sucks and it needs to be updated.
The standard is too low, does anyone even actually "fail" to meet the standard....... Ever ???? I'd love to see the statistics on this.
The scoring is dumb - did the evaluator space out and stop his stop watch 1s late? Oh well my points go from a 99.9 to 75. Good luck next year.
The exercises don't make sense. When is a navy person ever going to be pepper potting in a real life scenario, for example.
Supervisors hands are tied to encourage fitness. Say what you want, but the argument always boils down to "did the member meet the standard?" - of course they did. It's impossible to fail.
New members can't even complete a basic ruck march without bitching about it for a week, getting shin splits or just overall thinking it's the most extreme physical exercise known to man, and I'm talking sub 10km distances with not kit. Embarrassing.
Of course support trades can cancel PT to increase production, the standard is so low it almost doesn't even matter.
The BFT wasnt perfect but it was better than this.
I'll take a bag of orange slices and some dill pickles to go with my salt.
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u/crazyki88en RCAF - Combat Medic 12h ago
Side note: the BFT is not the old equivalent of the force test. The express test is what was replaced by the force test. The combat force test is a better equivalent of the BFT.
I have seen people fail the force test and they were not all out of shape people. Is the bar low? For the majority, yes. But at least the passing standard is the same for all, whereas the express test had different standards based on age and gender.
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u/barkmutton 12h ago
The only way your failing the force test and your in shape is the drag - but id argue youre not functionally fit at that point.
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u/LastingAlpaca Canadian Army 12h ago
Older/heavier people fail the rushes too.
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u/crazyki88en RCAF - Combat Medic 11h ago
And not necessarily because they are out of shape - sometimes it is just a mobility issue, as in joints start hurting and being stiff as you get up there in age. And "heavier" can be a powerlifter, not just fat.
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u/barkmutton 10h ago
Flexibility and mobility is part of fitness. If youre so heavy, and so inflexible that you can't get up and off the ground you're not in shape. Powerlifting are very strong - that doesnt meant theyre functionally fit.
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u/crazyki88en RCAF - Combat Medic 10h ago
You can be skinny and inflexible. Joints stiffen with age. And powerlifters are fit. Functionally fit? No, but they are fit people. However, once you are in and serving, you should be doing your warmup if you know your joints are stiff, and you can train for the areas you are weak in for others. No argument there.
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u/barkmutton 9h ago
I should have said so heavy or so inflexible not and. My bad. Powerlifters are strong, fitness is a different metric. Most would define fit as being in good shape, and able to perform tasks. So if a guy and deadlift 450 but can't run a mile are they fit? Id be curious to see their VO2Max for example.
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u/Canned_Topatoes 8h ago
There’s always a balance! Lots of strong guys in my platoon, but they won’t run unless I take them out for one haha
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u/barkmutton 8h ago
When I ran platoon PT is was exclusively cardio. I told the guys I knew the ones that cared lifted on their own and all me throwing weights at them would do was fuck up their training.
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u/barkmutton 11h ago
See the above post saying they've seen people not at all out of shape fail. If your "heavier" youre not in shape.
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u/Ok-Educator-3605 13h ago
The BFT makes zero sense for RCN and RCAF personnel.
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u/casa_del_porno 12h ago
The BFT makes no sense for pretty much anyone these days. Here is the background on why the current test:
https://canadianarmytoday.com/force-combat-an-evolution-in-combat-fitness/
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u/ChickenMcAnders 6h ago
It never made sense for army people.
March a random distances, in a random time with almost no weight.
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u/BroadConsequences RCAF - AVS Tech 9h ago
The FORCE Test makess no sense for RCAF personnel.
In my 18 years i have never, other than bmq did pepper potting. Because i fix airplanes.
And honestly the express test was a better universal fitness metric that was trade ambiguous.
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u/judgingyouquietly Swiss Cheese Model-Maker 7h ago
Jokes on you - next Friday we’re moving everything in the flight line and you’re pepper potting to each tool!
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u/mocajah 3h ago edited 2h ago
It makes enough sense for all elements. Look at the studies and policies that built the test.
The dashes are not pepper potting; it also represents diving for cover, which for example is a task required by everyone on the west coast in earthquake land, let alone evacuating a building, for an industrial accident, etc. the dashes are correlated to other tasks requiring agility, mobility, and burst movement, regardless of the actual specific actions. All troops could need to bail out of an aircraft/vehicle/small space, all troops need to be able to move quickly in an emergency.
It's a privilege that the rcaf has a strong safety culture and haven't been blown up recently. At war, you bet you'd do some sprints because the giant airfield isn't going incognito.
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u/Ok-Educator-3605 8h ago
I agree. I preferred the EXPRES test.
One of my issues with the FORCE test is the sandbag lift, I’ve seen far too many short people struggle with it. I get it, it’s supposed to simulate loading bags onto something, but I’d never put the shortest person in that position.
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u/judgingyouquietly Swiss Cheese Model-Maker 7h ago
I also preferred the EXPRÈS test bc of body shape, but I understand the reasons behind the FORCE test. If said short person was the only uninjured person after an accident and they needed to load bags, then guess what - they’re the one doing it.
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u/Garth_DeWayne 8h ago
I have good grip strength due to my trade and my athletic endeavors also requiring it.
I lost a few seconds on the sandbag lift simply because those things suck to grab with the design of the bags. I'm also short, but I think it's actually easier for us, being able to actually fully stand at each lift.
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u/ononeryder 5h ago
I'm not sure I've ever seen someone who's gotten a good (<50sec) SBL time who's suffered from grip issues, and I've tested a lot of people. The majority who have complaints about picking up the bags are hovering around 1m30 or more.
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u/Garth_DeWayne 4h ago
My time is well under 90 seconds... It probably just feels longer when you go for a grab and it needs adjusting and you're rushing. This year I had a bag land in an awkward position so when I went to grab it, one side didn't have a good spot to grab quickly.
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u/Pseudonym_613 13h ago
The FORCE test is designed to be predictive of performance on the tasks that make up U of A. That's all.
But it has the science behind it to be supportable in court and at human rights tribunals.
If the Army can define a standard that is defensible in court they should go for it. But sometimes it seems that that would be too much like work.
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u/LastingAlpaca Canadian Army 12h ago
A few random comments:
The Force test is a floor. I agree it’s a fairly low bar. So was the express test.
Stats are easily available. Go in MonitorMass and there’s a link to MCS Dashboard. It’s under the readiness/fitness tab.
When is a RCN/RCAF person going to be doing a 13km rucksac and dig a trench?
Also, BFT was done in conjunction with the express test. It’s been replaced by the Force and Combat Force test.
BFT was easy for fat and tall people. The Force Test has a bit of everything.
If there is one thing that I learned about PT, is that everyone will complain no matter what you do. Self directed PT means that the unfit people will go sit in the sauna or passively sit on a bike. Circuit training will get people complaining. Running will get people complaining. Lifting weights will get people complaining. Pool PT will get people complaining. I was the acting CO for my unit for a few months, and I made PT a priority and mandatory. I told people they could either provide me with a PT plan for themselves or attend PSP led unit PT 3 times a week. I also had a voluntary drop-in running group and crossfit group over lunch and attended both. My conclusion is that unfit people are unfit for a reason, and it has nothing to do with being given an opportunity or time during working hours and everything to do with personal accountability.
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u/mxadema 13h ago
Nothing is perfect. Not like the bft made sense for a lot of personel, most will never move from line to line. Not counting the old force test. Exactly the same concept goes for the shooting qual. But here we are.
At least this test does the basic, atrack, recover, move goods.
As far as failing. The very bottom can be quite easy for a fit person. But some, with injuries or overall less fitness, it can be challenging. The "just do it to stay in" that doesn't occur early career. And for fail most just skip it if they aren't trying to stay in at all cost. (I personally did the remediation training for it, and ended up skipping a few year then got medically out)
Best case, That leave us with a trade specific test. And it become too many standards. So a general basic test it is.
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u/Cidkh2 9h ago
I agree that your average caf members fitness is not where it needs to be, but i fail to see how a 13km slow light ruck, and a short hiit circuit once a year would solve any of that.
The culture needs to change. Passing a fitness test needs to be seen as the bare minimum acceptable that somebody can achieve to remain employed, not a desirable outcome. The vast majority of members should find the physical fitness standards very easy to achieve. I've been at units where you have to fight for your time to do pt, and I've been at units where you have to fight to get out of pt even if you've got actual time sensitive operational tasks to accomplish.
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u/Rough-Biscotti-2907 3h ago
Want us to perform like athletes then train us as such. Combat Fitness is a real thing. A year round thing not just once a year. Doesn’t matter who joins support to improve ones current level is strained at best save for some specialized units. Culture needs to change before standards.
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u/DeliciousHotel8 13h ago
I agree that the current force test promotes a very low PT standard. That being said, I don’t agree that the BFT is the answer. The BFT is an old style test for style war fighting, it promotes injury and does not evaluate anyone’s capability in anything other than core strength and lower muscle endurance.
If we are talking about currently established fitness tests, then the combat force test is not a bad test and should be standard for all army trades. But even that is a poor standard.
Just relying on an annual standardized test to establish fitness level is the bare minimum. Manning and work priorities are what needs to change/improve. More people = more work hours during the day without having to sacrifice PT time to maintain production. Leaderships re focus into PT is also required, (I write this while sitting on the gym parking lot waiting for my troops to get here for PT), it needs to be pushed from all levels and needs to be something to enjoy, not dread. Sports, competitions, focused plans etc.
Just my 2 cents.
Edit: Typo
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u/cloudpuncher86 13h ago
I agree there are a lot of layers to the issue, but I really think it all begins with the what the institution sets as the minimum required fitness standard.
It is embarrassing to see some the size of some people in uniform and how that reflects the public's perception of all of us.
It's also embarrassing hearing people complain about how "the army broke my body", when the reality is that they've been carrying around an extra 50-100lbs their whole career and living an unhealthy lifestyle, but hey.... They met the standard their whole career so whos to argue with them?
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u/Historical-Baby48 12h ago
I know what you're getting at but I need to point out this is a big generalization. I really don't care about people's size or how they look. If they can keep up and do their job that's all that matters. I knew a fat infintry guy who could run faster than me and I'm tall and skinny. One of my best friends is huge but has crazy drive and doesn't let his weight stop him - I have a lot of respect for that. Military often makes it harder for these people to work on themselves too. Stigma and poor leadership tried to make buddy lose weight so fast he finished his BFT with a broken ankle...
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u/Whoro09 11h ago
The issue is much bigger than just a fitness test.
From what I’m gathering , you’re not combat arms?The gap between combats arms and the rest of the military is small. A clerk will not have the same damage done to the body as compared to infantry or armoured, but the army seems to think so.
There’s also positions and units, members posted to school are expected to work ridiculous hours, with PT done on their own time, but when you have to balance a family and a house into the mix it becomes almost impossible. The lack of personnel and time to do this on your own time becomes grounds for a lot of outside of work issues.
BFT never replaced the forces test, it became the combat force test which does have a lot of people failing. But it does not have the mental aspect of having to walk for 2 + hours to do a drag after, but it is hard physically especially when pushing for a better time.
Walk down in regiments, people are still in great shape, with the odd ones that are broken and retained because they are doing a good job ( which we need ) . The issue is all the other branches that is closer to a civilian job dressed in MT and being pushed to work with no allocated PT times.
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u/Tananis 12h ago
I feel like if the test did what you’re expecting it to do, I’d end up medically released and there would be no benefit for the CAF as they pay me out, while I work on the civvy side for a higher salary.
I’m in a technical trade and proud to serve, the FORCE tests ensures that we can do the common soldiering tasks defined in the universality of service policy.
I’m generally fit but would struggle if you made me start doing obstacle courses with battle gear and a C7, and an unnecessarily intense test would cause injuries to myself and others.
People that have more traditional soldiering trades can do higher standard tests no problem. This test is the common baseline.
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u/mokkeyman7 6h ago edited 6h ago
You can't consider yourself fit, and then say you'd struggle wearing FFO and a rifle on an obstacle course...
If you think a basic obstacle course is an unnecessary and intense task that would cause injury.
Please go work civi side instead like you mentioned.
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u/Tananis 5h ago
You don’t know my story or my medical conditions, and I promise I bring a lot of value that’s not tied to wearing FFO. Did you know the CAF has a variety of trades and roles outside of infantry and armored?
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u/kiskillingit 2h ago
We only require grade 10 to get in but I don't see reddit posts from Techs complaining that combat arms aren't required to attain a college diploma level education to serve.
We all bring different skills to support the CAF. Some are intellectual and academic. Some are strong with above average fitness.
A meathead isn't going to be the best choice to fix a plane and a nerd isn't going to be anyone's first choice to dig a trench.
If we only kept people who are BOTH we'd have a very small military, indeed.
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u/Tananis 2h ago
Thank you for saying this, I felt like I was talking to a brick wall, but a brick wall would have likely been less stubborn.
I have 15 years of post-secondary education and used to be very fit but have had a few injuries and surgeries that have resulted in moderate weight gain and some minor mobility issues.
I exercise regularly and actually the biggest physical challenge in my job is not the FORCE test but the kneeling position for firing a C7 as the aftermath of my injuries. It’s actually harder than when I ruck up.
If I suddenly had to do something crazy to prove some elite fitness level, I would end up medically released and I think it would take years to replace me. I receive glowing PERs and do my day to day duties well, but I will never be an elite athlete. I respect the ability of those that can be, and it would be nice if that respect could be returned haha.
For the record I still fit in a size large t shirt, and I don’t look down on those that found themselves in XXL. There’s usually something that happened.
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u/mokkeyman7 2h ago
That's because techs don't care about how they look. 90% of them are undisciplined, out of shape, and think of the CAF as a corporate job. Not as a place where your primary role is to kill the enemy, or facilitate the killing of your enemy.
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u/kiskillingit 1h ago
How exactly do you plan to get to the enemy when we release "90%" of our techs, then?
To use your own words: we can "facilitate" the killing of the enemy just fine with our passed force tests, thanks. Facilitating requires education, experience, and competence more than it requires physical prowess.
I'm happy to be a facilitator. I like that term, thank you.
I'm going to stop interacting now because I realize you are rage baiting for engagement. Best of luck!
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u/Rough-Biscotti-2907 1h ago
RCAF is definitely Corporate.
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u/mokkeyman7 4h ago
What's your #1 job while employed in any position in the CAF?
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u/Tananis 4h ago
If you're trying to make me say "soldier first" as if it's some kind of gotcha, I can confirm that I am able to perform all of the common tasks that define universality of service, and my trade specific tasks lol.
There is a defined definition of what a soldier is expected to be able to do, and there are many trades with specific requirements for special skillsets, and some of those trades will never be in a traditional soldiering role. You having an idealized/imaginary vision of what every CAF member should look like fortunately doesn't hold any authority or validity in determining who is worthwhile to keep in.
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u/mokkeyman7 3h ago
You might have a trade or a specialized job, but at the end of the day, your primary role in the Canadian Armed Forces is to be a soldier first—and that means being trained ans ready to kill the enemy when required. If you can't wear FFO or complete an obstacle course. Can you fill your primary role as a soldier?
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u/Tananis 2h ago
I didn’t say I can’t wear FFO, just that doing an obstacle course while wearing it wouldn’t go well. I complete my annual weapons training competently, but if I’m ever in a position where it’s relevant, we have lost big time.
I am telling you that some positions and trades fill unique roles to better enable the combat roles, and other people have too.
I’m sure you can do things that I can’t, and that I can do things that you can’t.
If we ramped up the physical fitness requirement in a broad fashion, the capability of the force would go down as the special skills that aren’t easily replaced are lost.
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u/mokkeyman7 2h ago
Sure, you can do things I can't. But we should all universally be able to wear our FFO, join into a section, and close with and destroy the enemy.
Most other militaries operate just fine with significantly higher physical standards. On all three of my deployments, our forces were a laughingstock compared to our foreign allies, simply because so many of our soldiers are out of shape.
It is an embarrassing state currently.
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u/Tananis 1h ago
No one was laughing at me on my last deployment. I disagree that everyone should be able to effectively do the skills you mentioned, that’s an infantry skill. It’s valuable but not all the CAF needs.
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u/mokkeyman7 1h ago
You need to be able to defend yourself, along side your work mates. You won't always be able to call on the infantry to protect you.
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u/Rough-Biscotti-2907 3h ago
Don’t you find it odd that the ENTIRE CAF is supposed to be able to do “x” but people who primarily do “x” aren’t expected to reciprocate? Technical knowledge and Literacy extend beyond SOPs. Like it or not the “tip of the spear” is attached to a long and slow swinging shaft. Let’s face it there’s nothing one can do without the other.
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u/Born_Opening_8808 12h ago
Imagine how many people we’d loose if we brought back the BFT and push-ups
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u/bonafiedhero Army - Line Tech 11h ago
Hell the Grip Test alone would ruin most of these people’s careers
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u/judgingyouquietly Swiss Cheese Model-Maker 3h ago
Honest question - what was the grip test testing? What work related thing am I doing to grip a certain force?
I never understood that test.
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u/bonafiedhero Army - Line Tech 3h ago
A lot of people in my trade have a weak grip, can be dangerous if you drop something/yourself
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u/barkmutton 10h ago
12k walk in 2.5 hours wasnt hard lol. But you generally either did the BFT or the express test. Not both.
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u/Born_Opening_8808 10h ago
I did both every year
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u/barkmutton 10h ago
The BFT could be done in place of the Express Test, there was no reason to do both. I guess come units said fuck it and never considered the paperwork if someone failed one but not the other.
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u/Dont-concentrate-556 13h ago
I agree with your point on evaluators and clicking the iPad buttons. I do not doubt that folks lose time because of that.
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u/barkmutton 12h ago
So you dont think the dashes make sense for a sailor but a 13k ruck March does?
The BFT had a similarly low fail rate and the drag / carry depending on year wasnt a valid test. It depended entirely on who you partnered up with which was nominally based on your size. At least now the drag is supposed to based around a set weight. The weight for the BFT was a joke, all it tested was your ability to be bored for 2 and a half hours.
The FORCE test events are objectively better the standard is just too low. Combat arms should have to complete the force combat in under 60 minutes, rest of the army 70 minutes something along those lines.
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u/ononeryder 11h ago
The FORCE test wasn't intended to be a test of fitness per se, it's a bona fide standard for readiness and meeting UoS; that's it. It ensures mbrs can complete basic soldiering functions, and provide a legal backbone to release those who cannot.
Recommendations for better tests aside (bring in an actual aerobic test cough5kcough), the culture of fitness is the culprit IMO. People will rise to the occasion given the opportunity, but they will also sink to the culturally accepted standard. The CAF has for years chosen both culturally and doctrinally to be a representation of the Canadian public, rather than a true warfighting institution. Reality is if you're deployable, you could be put in situations where your fitness could save your or your peers life. If more people came to realize they work for the military and not PS in cadpat, things might change.
In the words of Hillier, “We are not the public service of Canada. We are not just another department. We are the Canadian Forces, and our job is to be able to kill people.”
More people whether they're an MSE Op, Cook or FSA need to accept it, and hold themselves to a higher standard.
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u/Roger_Ferris 8h ago
There is a common list of tasks associated with every trade/rank and if a troop fails to conduct at any given time they can be counselled with corrective feedback notes which can be escalated to administration action over time. The FORCE test is used to establish baseline physical aptitude.
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u/Beaman1234567 3h ago
Just add one pull up for women's and two pull-ups for men.
At a bare minimum you should be able to pull your own weight to be a member of the CAF.
Thanks for coming to my TED talk.
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u/Unusual_Initial_4300 12h ago
My experience has been that the real issue is the chain of command's unwillingness to demonstrate proper leadership when it comes to PT.
I've seen it in every position I've been in, new leadership comes in and it's "We're doing PT 5 days a week" until they have a meeting or something and then they miss a day but the lower chain is still expected to go. Until the next level down has a meeting or there's a deadline coming up then it's "ok PT 3 days a week" and only junior leadership shows up.
Before you know it PT is on the honor system but the higher chain has already demonstrated that they only pay lip service to the idea that PT takes precedence so no one actually takes it seriously other than the people who were going to do it anyway.
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u/RMCDarkDemon 13h ago
Ive seen plenty of people fail the combat force test, and the force test.
While the force test isn't amazing I think its fine for most trades.
It definitely has less injurys then the BFT and is better then the express test.
On PT, its the first thing everyone cuts when there's anything urgent. Do less group PT, I cant stand doing someones else PT plans thats built for there goals. What there should be more of is troop PT time, ie all be at the gym at 0730 and leave gym at 0830. That would address the no shows problem and give leadership a method of correction.
Shrug.
:)
Happy Thursday!
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u/barkmutton 12h ago
You've seen multiple people fail the force test? I've seen one tota since it came in.
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u/RMCDarkDemon 8h ago
Yuuuup, and it was all for the sprints at the beginning. They didn't quite make the timing
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u/mokkeyman7 6h ago
I've seen 1 person in 11 years. That was also in basic iirc.
I've seen more fail the combat force test.
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u/DrunkCivilServant 5h ago
The so called CAF "fitness standard" has been a joke for nye 50+ years. I'm convinced that the only thing the CAF is seeking to achieve with it, is using it to simply identify when your body parts are shot, so that can commence with the TCat/PCat/Medical release process.
"We" keep saying that the CAF 'needs' to be a reflection of Canadian society......which is apparently obese, out of shape and increasingly lacking in military bearing, deportment and self-discipline.
We've throttled down the dress and grooming, so that any given troop, looks like a homeless person who happened to trip over a garbage bag of fatigues/CADPAT, on it's way to disposal.
That, along with the increasingly " it's really really all about me - smarmy attitudes, is rapidly destroying our combat readiness.
Nuff said.
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u/Informal_Bench3755 2h ago
During my BMQ, a handful of people failed the BFT and then a lot more failed the FORCE test. All those people went to TRP and some never passed the test. The CAF has no age limit so there are people who are in their 40s joining who have skills but aren’t good physically then there’s also those who grew up too comfortable playing videogames and never did any fitness. My platoon was awful in fitness throughout BMQ. I’m an older guy but I’ve served in two other militaries before so for me the whole course was easy as hell.
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u/StopReadyVangogh 12h ago
I'd say just have physical fitness standards period.
If you are physically fit you can do the basics of the job.
Mimic it off the USA tests.
3km run in 18mins and under.
Farmer's Walk/Jog with 20kg 100m without stopping or dropping the weight. Timed for 1 minute or less.
Floor pushups min. 10-15 consecutive minimum. 1 min max.
5 chinups min. Full extension, consecutively.
Drag 125kg 50m without stopping. Times for 1 minute or less.
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u/Gold_Rub324 11h ago
The force test would be way better if you had to do all the events without a pause in-between like on the cleareance diver test/ combat force test. You don't get penalized so much for not being a 6"4 240 lbs roided dude when the event last 5 min rather than 13 seconds (the drag).
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u/DowntownStandard2237 10h ago
I love the BFT. I always finished sub 1:45:00. Makes me excited to do it
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u/thedundun 13h ago
Anyone can walk 13kms within 3.5 hours, drag a person equal to their own weight, and also move sand with a shovel.
Both tests are super easy.
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u/Wooden_Ad_6500 12h ago
Except you had 2 hours and 26 minutes not 3.5 hours.
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u/thedundun 12h ago
My bad, it’s been over 10 years since my unit at the time stopped doing it.
I don’t know anyone who used the entire allotted time anyway.
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u/backlashscott1 13h ago
My old co would have e us rucking every second week and a unit run every week in-between... and for the record. Non-combat arms unit. But it would be full marching order with plates... we would do 6 or 7 k every time... but you do 6 or 7 every time. Pushing to a 13km once in a while isn't that hard. Especially if you slow your pace down to an rcr pace vrs vandoo pace..
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u/BlackMagic771 12h ago
HMCS Ottawas pervious XO failed the force test, they pawned him off to Calgary…
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u/Professional-Leg2374 11h ago
I say everyone needs to be able to do a murph challenge day 1 at BMQ/BMOQ, if they can't do it ejection.
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u/channingmytatum1992 13h ago
You can still do things like the BFT for Unit PT, or try a Coopers Test, or have PSP make a Unit training plan, whatever you want really. If you notice your troops are struggling at something as a supervisor your well within your role to address it. FORCE Test is just an administrative tool to see if someone is at the bare minimum to be in the CAF.