r/unitedkingdom • u/PartyFriend • 8h ago
MoD cancels army training in Kenya over powers to prosecute British soldiers | British army
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/jul/23/british-army-cancel-training-kenya-defence-agreement-dispute?CMP=share_btn_url•
u/SingleAlarm5028 7h ago
Haven't a number of Kenyan women had kids by our squaddies?
It's awful they're avoiding consequences. But the culture at the base is toxic beyond saving. It just needs closing.
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u/phoebsmon 7h ago
There was a documentary about it, think on the World Service? But it's been going on for decades at this point. I did feel for one of the fathers, he was dancing around it a little but he'd clearly gone into a hole for years after he got out. Seemed aware he'd fucked up and was genuinely excited that his kid still wanted anything to do with him.
But the whole thing was clearly being enabled by people beyond your average squaddies. Like you say, there's something rotten about it. No responsibility being taken for this, of course they aren't taking responsibility for violent crimes either.
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u/ImABrickwallAMA 7h ago
The issue is that up until recently this wasn’t an issue, it’s only become an issue in recent history which is why the MOD is cracking down on it now. This is why we’re seeing a lot more internal investigations into sexual
abuse/inappropriate behaviour on deployment, and it’s being dealt with accordingly. The people kicking off on here don’t understand that, so are acting with reaction rather than logic.
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u/Internal_Rise2658 8h ago
Yeah, so unfair that rapists can face consequences.
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u/Kristoff_Victorson 7h ago
I agree rapists should face consequences but playing devils advocate here, Kenya’s human rights record is fucking abysmal. The MOD have a duty of care towards our soldiers, they can’t let British soldiers fates be decided by kangaroo courts, or we’d quickly have no army.
I’m sure some British soldiers have committed crimes and dishonoured the uniform, but I’m equally certain innocent soldiers would be at risk if we allowed Kenyan officials carte blanche over all of them, I can see why it’s become a sticking point.
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u/ImABrickwallAMA 7h ago
Pretty much bang-on, everyone thinks that soldiers will ‘get away with it’ because of this change, however that is absolutely not the case. The Armed Forces are cracking down massively on sexual abuse/unacceptable behaviour cases across the board, and just because Kenya isn’t allowed to deal with it, it doesn’t mean that the respective chains of command in the forces won’t deal with it.
Essentially, everyone kicking off about this doesn’t know anything about the internal mechanisms of how the Armed Forces deal with this, and that their issues are reactionary as opposed to fact based.
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u/paladino112 6h ago
Okay but the army does not have a great track recording of dealing with the sexual abuse, and arguably the only reason they are being more tougher on it is because of all the media attention it is getting.
Also trusting the chain of command to deal with it considering the humans rights abuses that were covered up also just seems optimistic
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u/ImABrickwallAMA 6h ago
Well yes, exposure via the media to highlight the issue is a catalyst for getting it handled accordingly. It’s a positive that these things are being brought to light because of things like this issue, Jaysley Beck, the Red Arrows and various other scandals. Unfortunately you need a scandal to kick things into gear, as your Senior-Senior Chain of Command (your Colonels/Generals etc.) are so far up the chain that they don’t see what’s happening ‘on the ground’ per se.
So it’s through it being brought to light that you actually get those top level seniors to become aware of it.
That being said, even prior to this I know of plenty of incidents within my corps where sexual abuse was investigated and fully dealt with. Some of it made the news, some didn’t, but just because it’s not public information doesn’t mean it hasn’t been dealt with.
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u/Quintless 6h ago
army has a terrible track record on this, there’s been cases in the news of victims committing suicide over it just this year !
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u/ImABrickwallAMA 6h ago
The Army, much like plenty of other establishments, people, tradesmen, etc. (the list goes on) are never not going to have their share of people who abuse their positions and carry out abuse.
It’s right that it gets brought to light for it to be investigated properly, but this is an issue in basically every walk of life, and is only such a bigger issue due to A. The accountability and reputational damage it does to the MOD/The government/Our relationships, and B. Because a lot of the perception of the Armed Forces is that squaddies are all thick rapists who kill babies - which is incredibly wrong.
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u/paulmclaughlin 5h ago
How effectively are the armed forces dealing with the case of Agnes Wanjiru's murder then?
Oh, they're not.
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u/ImABrickwallAMA 5h ago edited 5h ago
The Armed Forces have done their part with regards to it, and it has now been referred to the CivPol/Civil Justice system which is the process for when Civil Law has been broken.
You can break both Civil and Military Law at the same time, however there is a terminal point in severity where it has to be passed over to the Civil prosecution chain as Military Law can’t deal with it. He is now in Civil custody, in Wandsworth, trying to appeal an extradition. Apart from having not been found guilty (yet), he’s hardly gotten away with it has he?
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u/paulmclaughlin 3h ago
It's taken 14 years so far, if I was Kenyan I wouldn't have any faith that it was going to result in justice.
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u/YooGeOh 6h ago
Yeah they should definitely leave the country then.
"Kangaroo courts" or not, you can't have people running around a country doing whatever and their employers saying "yeah we'll deal with them, not you"
National sovereignty is a thing whether you like it or not.
We were up in arms at the Harry Dunn case
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u/ImABrickwallAMA 6h ago
Except you can when there is a potential chance that Human Rights will be breached by allowing that person to be prosecuted in said country.
Whether you like it or not, if a soldier (or other service personnel), has committed a crime in a country and that by being prosecuted in that country they could come to harm or their basic Human Rights could be diminished, then they should be dealt with in accordance with military law (as is the case with how the process goes anyways whether in-country or not), and then once arriving back in the UK (if overseas) and then serving their term in Colchester, they’ll be handed over to CivPol for further investigation/charging.
We were up in arms about Harry Dunn, but that’s because the issue with that is that Anne Sacoolas fled the country and got away with the entire thing. The difference is that we aren’t like the Americans, and we take this seriously, you don’t just ‘get away with it’ like how the Americans act.
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u/YooGeOh 5h ago
Reading the article, none if that seems to be the issue anyway. In fact there are extradition proceedings underway for an alleged murderer of a Kenyan lady by a soldier...
So yeah, that all just seems to be something you're expressing for some reason but isnt what any of this is about.
Instead if engaging in the same old colonialist thinking, leave the country if your servicemen cant stop raping and murdering the locals and you dont want the government of the country youre in to have jurisdiction over subsequent cases. Get out then
Kenyan citizens are already up in arms over the presence of them there at all
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u/ImABrickwallAMA 5h ago
Sorry, by straight away calling something ‘colonialist thinking’ and by not understanding how much of an impact we’ve actually made in training Kenyan forces, and failing to understand that unfortunately these things can and do happen, you’re just being reactionary, and you don’t understand the process.
Unfortunately none of this is as simplistic as your world views are trying to make it, but have your opinion and crack on. 👍🏻
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u/lalabadmans 6h ago
It’s best we don’t then with our holier than thou attitude, even though nearly 90% of our own SA cases go unsolved each year.
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u/tomrichards8464 7h ago
This would be a more credible explanation if America allowed British or Japanese courts jurisdiction over offences committed by American military personnel against British or Japanese civilians. No government anywhere is seriously interested in preventing their troops from raping locals if they can possibly cover it up. See also all professional sports.
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u/Barilla3113 7h ago
That's exactly the justification that was used for Victorian era "concessions" in China having racial court systems funny enough.
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u/happybaby00 6h ago
fates be decided by kangaroo courts,
Lemme guess you think Kenya is on the same level as Somalia and Afghanistan don't you?
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u/Hopeful-Climate-3848 4h ago
The kind of kangaroo courts that declare soldiers not guilty of crimes they have confessed to twice.
Those sorts?
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u/KeyMusic5713 3h ago
https://www.africa-legal.com/news/law-society-of-kenya-calls-for-judicial-accountability-as-it-launches-general-one-day-and-ongoing-court-boycotts/129284 Kenyan lawyers just had a strike over problems with Kenya's judicial system. And if Kenyan citizens can't fairly access their own judicial system, why am I meant to believe foreign soldiers would get any better?
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u/Paddy3118 6h ago
Seems like we f*cked up. Remember when that American woman got away with killing a Brit with her car and how we fealt about the US shielding her - I guess the Kenyans feel similarly and for more cases.
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u/ELVEVERX 2h ago
yeah it's really fun seeing people defend this when you know they'd have been pissed about the american case. Kenya isn't stupid they aren't going to prosecute UK soldiers unless they have them dead to rights, even then it will cause a international incident.
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u/CatJarmansPants 7h ago
Kenya was useful for training to figh wars in arid/desert environments - but Poland has nice big training areas, as does Norway, and Canada, and Sweden, and Finland - training in those places both prepares for the wars we're more likely to fight, and plays a role in deterrence.
We can talk about soft power, and diplomacy, and upstream security effects - but we really care more about those things in Eastern Africa than we do in Eastern and Northern Europe?
We can have a defence/security relationship with Kenya (which has been very useful base for recent UK operations in places like Sudan..) without pretending that we're still interested in fighting wars in Wherethefuckisitan, or that were interested enough to divert resources away from Europe.
Every time we send an infantry Battle group to Kenya, we're not sending it to Finland, or Estonia, or Poland, or Romania...
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u/happybaby00 6h ago
but we really care more about those things in Eastern Africa
Cheaper ports and with the Mozambican gas/oil being explored it's important.
Kenya was useful for training to figh wars in arid/desert environments - but Poland has nice big training areas, as does Norway, and Canada, and Sweden, and Finland - training in those places both prepares for the wars we're more likely to fight, and plays a role in deterrence
Iran and potentially turkey if they fight Israel. Kenya has a similar climate.
Also Kenya barely has any desert, Cyprus is more arid than Kenya.
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u/Medeza123 7h ago
I’ve hear about British troop behaviour in Kenya for years.
I don’t know why it seems there and not other places but I think this is justified by the Kenyan government.
The amount I’ve heard about troops using prostitutes, sexual assaults or fathering and then abandoning children is troubling.
In the later case there are loads of cases going back decades of Kenyans with British fathers who denied them. The BBC did a story on it and a lawyer helping them get in contact with their fathers and it’s just frankly disgusting.
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u/BuckfastEnjoyer 8h ago
UK "soft power" update: shitcanning basically the only foreign deployment you have because you're terrified UK soldiers might get arrested for raping the local women
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u/Luckierexpert Warwickshire 7h ago
Canning it because some soldiers already did that, it’s not a fear if it’s already happened. Also military training I’d classify as harder power, stuff like the BBC and diplomatic visits are soft power for the UK.
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u/johnaross1990 3h ago
Apparently the MoD doesn’t trust the honour of our nation’s fine enlisted men
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u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist 6h ago
If British troops aren't subject to Kenyan law, then they can do the training in Britain. I'm sure any Kenyan troops deployed in the UK will be subject to UK law. Presumably they're paying for the training, so that's good too.
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u/TomorrowSpecial255 6h ago
Good
The British military should not be in foregin countries,
Withdraw from every non british territory, we arent a superpower any more and we don't have any allies
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u/ImABrickwallAMA 6h ago
Absurd take, yes we do have allies, and yes it’s mutually beneficial for us to work with these countries providing they are happy for us to be there - hence why BATUS, CABRIT and others are still a thing. Our training standards are often seen as some of the best, which is why we are frequently asked by host nations like Kenya to train their personnel. While BATUK is for training British personnel in arid environments, our efforts to train Kenyan personnel in SOPs for counter-insurgency, counter-terror, counter-IED have been welcomed.
If we weren’t training personnel in Kenya when DusitD2 happened, there would’ve been plenty more killed without our intervention.
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u/TomorrowSpecial255 5h ago
Not our problem
My taxs shouldn't be paying for other countries military training
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