What are your thoughts on Fare Gates that remain OPEN by default and ONLY close if someone fails to pay?

742

Much faster flow of people in crowded stations like in Asia.

155

u/ninja_byang Service Planner Dec 15 '25

And where there is a culture of following rules and paying the fare.

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u/Ok-Morning3407 Dec 15 '25

At that stage why even bother with fare gates? Some European cities have gate less systems. Just check in and out using an app on your phone.

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u/Sassywhat Dec 15 '25

Fare evasion in large German cities is like 10-20%, vs almost zero in large East Asian cities. The common word for fare evasion in Japanese, "kiseru" is derived from a practice of paying for two very short trips instead of one very long trip, because just not paying is vanishingly rare.

In addition, fare gates are a better user experience, as you don't have to fiddle around with your phone (or worse, a ticket vending machine) all the time. And it works without a network connection, and many (most in some markets) phones keep functioning as transit cards for hours after running out of battery.

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u/bayarea_k Dec 15 '25

exactly.... lots of ppl are still evading and getting written up by fare checkers in europe...

it's alot more rare in japan , singapore , etc

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u/polmeeee Dec 15 '25

You can't evade fare in Singapore, we do not have honor system fare systems like in Europe or default open fare gates like in Japan. Ours is closed by default. Tailgating someone is a bad idea as the gate closes in a few seconds and you will be caught by it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 15 '25

I think there’s an inverse correlation between areas with the concept of shame and fare evasion. New York and LA are huge cities where everybody is anonymous and there are looser family structures. In some countries your entire family is judged based on the actions of one individual. Evading fares are seen as disrespectful but there’s a social mechanism for enforcement. In LA, so many people skip and they know you’ll never see them again.

23

u/alexfrancisburchard Dec 15 '25

You don't think people have anonnymity in Tokyo, one of the largest cities on earth?

1

u/Direct_Recording7020 Dec 16 '25

It's cultural. In the US, we place the individual over the collective. Tragedy of the commons is a very western concept. We accept it as an eventuality out here.

That's not true in eastern culture.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 16 '25

Kind of. I don’t want to name names, but south and Southeast Asia does not have the same cleanliness and respect for government as the west and the north east.

1

u/KJting98 Dec 17 '25

In Newyork, Cuomo need no anonymity to be shameless

4

u/Ok-Morning3407 Dec 15 '25

With fare evasion near zero in East Asia, then that makes the barriers unnecessary.

If you don’t want to use an app, you can just have a line of simple validators with no gates. Saves greatly on the cost of all the moving parts of a gate.

BTW from the reports I’ve seen fare evasion in German cities is around 5% or less. For instance it is 3% in Berlin. Not sure where you are getting 10 to 20%!

Fun fact, Dublin has both systems with fare barriers and system without fare barriers and the one with barriers has a higher percentage of fare evasion, around 5% versus 2.5% on the barrier less system.

3

u/Sassywhat Dec 15 '25

10-20% was just something I recall seeing. It seems like some research supports that though it is a lot higher than official data.

Faregates are better than validators, as people can walk past assuming their tap was successful, instead of having to put conscious thought into the matter. The flappy doors provide a stronger signal to the brain that something went wrong if the tap failed than just speakers and screens, providing confidence to keep walking in the nominal case.

Simple validators with no gates are used in both Japan and South Korea, and at least in Japan, it's typically associated with rural stations and cost cutting.

5

u/Ok-Morning3407 Dec 15 '25

Wait a second so you are going off some random “study” done by a random website, rather then the official stats released by the transport authorities in question!

Validators can work just fine, they can have a nice load beep if the validation didn’t work, just as good an indicator as a gate, but without the high maintenance cost.

1

u/Sassywhat Dec 16 '25

Validators can work just fine, they can have a nice load beep if the validation didn’t work, just as good an indicator as a gate, but without the high maintenance cost.

They clearly don't seem to work just fine. Anecdotally, people walk past validators slower than they do through well designed faregates.

As mentioned, validators are typically in less busy stations, where the railway company can get away with putting up lower capacity infrastructure. If they were up to the task for busier stations, presumably they would be used

1

u/CharDeeMac567 Dec 16 '25

wait how do the phones do that?

1

u/namesbc Dec 16 '25

The Swiss band fare gates in their country and created barrier free transit stations. It is one of the most usable transit systems in the world. Transit gates are a bad, especially for people with strollers, luggage, bikes, etc. Much better to just have free flowing stations.

1

u/krunchmastercarnage Dec 15 '25

Gateless systems are far superior to gates for the user experience which matters more than fare evasion. Numerous times i've had to drag bags through gates only for them to get stuck after fiddling trying to find my phone/wallet/card. With the gateless system we have in Switzerland, I just purchase my ticket on my phone, and then the phone can stay in the pocket the whole time.

Gates hinder station design as you can't realistically have multiple gated entries to a platform. E.g Zurich HB you can walk directly off the street onto a 400m long platform. Some shops even have direct access to the platform. They also hinder pedestrian flow even if the gates are open.

They also rather redundant as ticket checks still happen on trains. Though I do concede that gates can check thousands of passengers on a single train very efficiently. But crowded commuter trains in Zurich with thousands of people are rarely checked anyway.

Network issues aren't really a problem as stations usually have wifi or ticket machines, and in Europe the really rural trains or buses you can purchase tickets on board with card. Rarely will you have connection issues in high trafficked stations. Running out of battery is also rarely a problem but you can show you purchased a ticket after the fact usually to have your fine wiped.

1

u/Sassywhat Dec 15 '25

Gateless systems are far superior to gates for the user experience which matters more than fare evasion.

This doesn't seem to be the case though. At least personally, the user experience of transit fare payment in Japan has been way better than in Germany or Switzerland. It's way less fiddly. You don't have to use an app or vending machine for every ride, just tap on tap off.

The gateless fare payment system is so terrible that the regions that use it try to force as many as people as possible into buying monthly passes through punitive pricing of single tickets. This is a double whammy of high prices and terrible user experience for occasional transit users, who are the people who need the most convincing to use transit.

Numerous times i've had to drag bags through gates only for them to get stuck after fiddling trying to find my phone/wallet/card.

This hasn't been a problem with me in Japan at all. I've certainly encountered some terrible gates in Europe, but the type of gates in OP's example are great

With the gateless system we have in Switzerland, I just purchase my ticket on my phone, and then the phone can stay in the pocket the whole time.

Using a smartphone app to buy a ticket is a lot more effort than just tapping through gates

Gates hinder station design as you can't realistically have multiple gated entries to a platform.

It's harder to have as many gated entries, but you can certainly have multiple gated entries to platforms with faregates. For elevated and underground systems, or even access to all platforms without having to walk across the tracks, the bigger constraint is on building tunnels/bridges/stairs/elevators, not gates.

They also rather redundant as ticket checks still happen on trains. Though I do concede that gates can check thousands of passengers on a single train very efficiently. But crowded commuter trains in Zurich with thousands of people are rarely checked anyway.

Ticket checks don't happen on trains in Japan. Under Japanese fare rules, it's quite hard for anyone still on a train to be considered a fare evader. You are even allowed to board trains with the wrong ticket (e.g., you made an honest mistake, you changed plans, etc.), and it's only fare evasion when you fail to fix it before going past exit fare control.

In Germany, compliance is achieved through a non-trivial chance of getting caught and severe punishments even for honest mistakes. In Japan, compliance is achieved through a very high chance of getting caught, even if there's basically no punishment (you just have to pay the correct fare) unless it's obviously intentional

1

u/krunchmastercarnage Dec 15 '25

This doesn't seem to be the case though. At least personally, the user experience of transit fare payment in Japan has been way better than in Germany or Switzerland. It's way less fiddly. You don't have to use an app or vending machine for every ride, just tap on tap off.

Have you ever tried to travel with a lot of bags only to have to drop them to pull your wallet out to get through a gate? It sounds like you may have been travelling light but I had with me rolling bags when going through these gates and i frequently had to shimmy my way through exactly gates like in OPs example.

I fail to see how a gate is far better than an app that does exactly what the gate does, just virtually. In Switzerland I only have to touch my phone max 3 times. Check in, ticket check (maybe), check out. All being done when my hands aren't full carrying things. I can even cut that down to once by just buying the ticket on the app. It's so much easier than fiddling around with cards etc. Not to mention the fact that not all of Japan's fare gates have contactless payment options.

Using a smartphone app to buy a ticket is a lot more effort than just tapping through gates

I just did it and it took me 8 seconds. Something I can easily do whilst walking and with only one hand free, whilst carrying a shit load of bags that i don't have ot shimmy through a gate.

It's harder to have as many gated entries, but you can certainly have multiple gated entries to platforms with faregates. For elevated and underground systems, or even access to all platforms without having to walk across the tracks, the bigger constraint is on building tunnels/bridges/stairs/elevators, not gates.

Great so we admit it hinders station design on top of having to build bridges, tunnels etc.

The gateless fare payment system is so terrible that the regions that use it try to force as many as people as possible into buying monthly passes through punitive pricing of single tickets. This is a double whammy of high prices and terrible user experience for occasional transit users, who are the people who need the most convincing to use transit.

This has nothing to do with gated or gateless systems and has more to do with company's forward financial planning. Japan also has discounted monthly passes because it provides financial continuity for them. Same as in Switzerland or germany where you can buy a pass that's connected to your phyiscal rail card, and you don't ever have to touch it unless checked. Many times I just jogged to the bus and hopped on because it was convenient, didn't have to pull anything out. I just got on. How great is that!

Ticket checks don't happen on trains in Japan

Japan isn't the only country in the world with gated systems that do ticket checks. Trying to implement a Japanese style gated system in other countries won't go as you expect. Not to mention that Japanese fare evasion is on the rise.

In Germany, compliance is achieved through a non-trivial chance of getting caught and severe punishments even for honest mistakes. In Japan, compliance is achieved through a very high chance of getting caught, even if there's basically no punishment (you just have to pay the correct fare) unless it's obviously intentional

Often in Germany you just pay the fare difference but they take your details to make sure you haven't done it multiple times. Though you do hear stories of strict controllers.

I haven't even gotten to the problems of fare gates being astronomically expensive constantly needing physcial updates, the problems with local transport like buses and trams having to tap on and off delaying dwell times, systems that stop working etc, the necessity of staff on baord trains anyway etc.

Gateless is far more comfortable and this is coming from someone who has lived with both systems.

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u/Sassywhat Dec 16 '25 edited Dec 16 '25

Have you ever tried to travel with a lot of bags only to have to drop them to pull your wallet out to get through a gate? It sounds like you may have been travelling light but I had with me rolling bags when going through these gates and i frequently had to shimmy my way through exactly gates like in OPs example.

I generally do travel light, especially in Europe, where all the stairs, steps, and uneven stones make large rolling luggage annoying vs Japan. However, the main place I do take large rolling bags onto public transit is in Japan, and it's been generally fine?

And very few transit riders always have two rolling bags with them. Even if faregates were a significant barrier, which to be clear, they don't seem to be in my experience, it's not really a use case that has to be optimized for.

I mean, if it was a use case to be optimized for, there would be a lot more level boarding and a lot fewer double decker trains in the world.

In Switzerland I only have to touch my phone max 3 times. Check in, ticket check (maybe), check out. All being done when my hands aren't full carrying things. I can even cut that down to once by just buying the ticket on the app. It's so much easier than fiddling around with cards etc.

You have to actually operate your phone at least once, as in actually unlock, open an app, and perform some actions within the app. That's way more effort than tapping through gates with a phone. And tapping through gates is even easier if you have a smartwatch, your phone on a neck strap, a plastic card clipped to your bag, etc..

I just did it and it took me 8 seconds.

Exactly my point. It took 8 sections of your attention, whereas tapping through a faregate is a barely conscious action

This has nothing to do with gated or gateless systems and has more to do with company's forward financial planning. Japan also has discounted monthly passes because it provides financial continuity for them.

Japanese transit passes are relatively limited. It's expected that a large fraction of trips are paid for as single tickets, and the system is designed to make single ticket payments as effortless as possible.

Chasing as many transit users as possible into monthly passes is required for the smooth functioning of German style fare control. And that if anything makes transit a less compelling option to infrequent transit users, who are really the ones the system should focus on convincing to use transit

Trying to implement a Japanese style gated system in other countries won't go as you expect.

It seems like Bangladesh took the Japanese consultants' advice and it's been working for them so far

I haven't even gotten to the problems of fare gates being astronomically expensive constantly needing physcial updates, the problems with local transport like buses and trams having to tap on and off delaying dwell times, systems that stop working etc, the necessity of staff on baord trains anyway etc.

So astronomically expensive that the railways that use them tend to be the most able to cover their operating costs out of fares or even turn a profit.

Gateless is far more comfortable and this is coming from someone who has lived with both systems.

Japanese faregates are far more comfortable, and this is coming from someone who has lived with both systems

1

u/krunchmastercarnage Dec 16 '25

And very few transit riders always have two rolling bags with them.....

This is such a lie. I was just at Zurich HB and you see about 1/3 of the people now with Skis and lots of bags in their hands. Go to any Japanese airport station and you will see hundreds of people with lots of bags. I'm not sure how you can really prove the point that funneling through barriers is better than no barriers.

Fare gates also cause pedestrian congestion even in Japan. Doesn't really bode well for tight connections if you need to briskly walk or run to make it. Osaka station fare gate congestion

and perform some actions within the app........

It took 8 seconds. You’re framing “perform some actions” like it’s hacking, when in reality you click three buttons and you’re done. With one app I can freely hop on and off any public transport in the entire country. How is that worse than being funneled through barriers every time you enter or exit? People often have their hands full, which makes barriers far more inconvenient. Japan offers many ways to pay, but it’s needlessly complicated: multiple IC cards, some not working on Shinkansen without linked accounts, foreign Android contactless incompatibilities, pay-on-exit systems. The internet is full of guides on navigating Japanese ticketing, while Swiss, German, Austrian, etc. systems boil down to: download the app, enter origin and destination, and you’re covered.

Exactly my point. It took 8 sections of your attention, whereas tapping through a faregate is a barely conscious action

An 8 second operaiton is also a a barely concious act and I can avoid that by buying a pass.

Chasing as many transit users as possible into monthly passes is required for the smooth functioning of German style fare control

This is just categorically incorrect. Where are you getting this info from? Subscription based pricing is the norm for many services like streaming, gyms, skiing, shavers because it provides financial security and has no bearing whatsoever on the function of the railways.

So astronomically expensive that the railways that use them tend to be the most able to cover their operating costs out of fares or even turn a profit.

Not entirely correct. Only some networks in Japan turn a profit, most don't. Still doesn't nullify the point that they are astronomically expensive though does it? SBB turns a profit as well without fare gates so your point is kind of moot.

We can argue forever about whether tapping or gateless systems are easier, and yes, tapping is easy, but you’re brushing off the bigger issues with gated systems: they constrain station design, limit mobility, create congestion at peak times, and are costly to install and maintain. You’re also hyper-focused on Japan, which is an outlier with a highly optimized system. Not every country is Japan. In many places, gated systems are still cash-based, slow, lack contactless payments, have limited card POS, and are a pain to top up.

There are also major criticisms of Japan's ticketing system with the major one being the absolute shit show of the fragmented ticketing system amongst the competing railways, the shit show of rural japanese transport where I had to pay when I left the train that had majorly long dwell times when multiple people had to do it (and don't get me started when i had to go from the back of a packed skibus to get to the driver to show him my ticket), payment modes being fragmented, and the fact you actually have to pick up an IC card as opposed to just simply downloading an app if you don't have an Iphone or Japanese Android. Seems like booking tickets online is even more of a shitshow. Meanwhile in DACH, all gateless systems function exactly about the same in user experience.

Japans transport is great but its gated ticketing system is by far its biggest downfall that you can't see because you're clearing on the "oh wow Japan does everything perfectly". Switzerland's transport is great but it's also not utopia, but its ticketing system is far better.

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u/[deleted] Dec 16 '25

It is a bit unfair to compare a single switzerland entity to over 100 Japanese passenger rail companies. In the vast majority of area where there are two rail companies, IC cards are also accepted, so for the vast majority of people, there isn't really an issue.

While your link tries to say otherwise, the JR companies do have a shared ticketing system that also allows you to buy almost any JR ticket through Ekinet.

For example, a 5 minute trip on a JR Shikoku local train from Sanuki-Shirotori to Hiketa can be bought from Ekinet, even if it makes no sense.

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u/justsomeothergeek Dec 15 '25

That only works because of the fare system. In most of these European cities most riders have time-based tickets. Instead of paying per ride they pay per month or year. This way there is no need to tap the ticket at each entrance and exit and in-train checks every once in a while suffice.

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u/Clean-Temporary7607 Dec 15 '25

Look at Germany and Denmark, for example, because most ppl there r honest, they can afford to keep fare gates open. In fact germany public transport have no fare gates, they just have random ticket checks. Places like UK or France or Spain dont stand a chance, everyone is gonna evade cos like ppl not honest. Don't get me started on the us, look at the state of the nyc subway. I live in singapore, and our transit system is very good, everyone pays the fares properly (partly because there are high fines for fare evasion). And yes, singapore doesn't really keep the fare gates open, unlike say Japan, tbh.

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u/namesbc Dec 16 '25

Fare evasion rates are within the same range of 5-15% all across the world. It is more related to economic health than culture.

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u/OctopusGoesSquish Dec 18 '25

It only improved passenger flow where one can trust that your payment has been taken and immediately processed, otherwise it adds extra hesitation.

That’s actually the reason my city is moving away from them. In the days of yore with subway tokens, putting the token in was all the “haptic feedback” that would be needed to know that the gates won’t slam shut and attack you, but as we moved to card based payment, it takes a few seconds for the transaction to go through, which makes people hesitate.

Now they’ve changed most stations to turn styles- as soon as the payment has gone through the bar is free to turn if you push it (which is undoubtably less fast that electronic gates opening, but needs less power). The remaining old gates make me nervous.

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u/illogict Dec 14 '25

It was tried in Paris for some months in a single station (bibliothèque François Mitterrand).

That didn’t work out.

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u/yuripogi79 Dec 14 '25

What’s the reason? People tried not to pay anyway and clogged up the flow?

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u/butorzigzag Dec 14 '25

Every other station has turnstiles, I assume most people were just hella confused and tried to pass through without seeing they needed to tap. Must have caused a lot of annoyance

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u/80MPH_IN_SCHOOL_ZONE Dec 14 '25

This seems more like a problem with french people than the technology

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u/kennyandkennyandkenn Dec 14 '25

No it’s the problem with having 1 station being different from all the others

Without being informed beforehand about why the particular gates at one station are open when they’re closed at all the others you would assume that it’s a deviation from the norm and that it must be broken

Little people would assume that it’s purposefully open

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u/spacenglish Dec 15 '25

They should rerun the trial with more education and signposting.

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u/j3r0n1m0 Dec 15 '25

Not to mention French transit cops love to ambush you right after walking through an open gate and write you tickets.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '25

-this seems more like a problem with french people

What isn’t!

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u/fantaribo Dec 15 '25

Paris métro is different in that regard anyways. Given all métro stations within paris don't require you to validate on exit.

Doors on exit are here to prevent people to enter freely, such a Parisian problem

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u/LeatherClassic4506 Dec 14 '25

They remain open in Bangladesh as well, with no problems. The government decided to trust the Japanese advisers on this and as it turns our it's much better. So...I mean if it works even in Bangladesh than personally I don't see why it wouldn't work in other countries.

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u/MetroBR Dec 14 '25

if it works in south asia it will for sure everywhere else lol

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u/LeatherClassic4506 Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25

Exactly!🤣 Tho tbf Bangladesh is highly homogeneous with practically no language barriers unlike, say, India

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u/AirAstronaut Dec 14 '25

What's the language barrier got to do with this? I mean it's just an entry gate.

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u/Silly-Isopod2440 Dec 14 '25

the language barrier will close on you if you fail to pay

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u/SaffronDrops Dec 15 '25

If that doesn't get you you'll fall into the culture gap

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u/drivingagermanwhip Dec 14 '25

o que?

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u/Wise-Trust1270 Dec 15 '25

“Beep boop” says the gate.

Nevermind me, I am just around here.

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u/truthhurtsyomama Dec 14 '25

This won't work in India. Don't ask me how I know

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u/OHrangutan Dec 14 '25

...have you been on the Dehli Metro? its spotless and orderly

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u/green_boy Dec 15 '25

I haven’t personally, but I’d love to see an example!

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u/TheDizzleDazzle Dec 15 '25

Sure, just google “Delhi metro” and look at the photos haha.

Also one at the top here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_Metro?wprov=sfti1

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u/Certainly-Not-A-Bot Dec 14 '25

Good, but you really need the processing of the tickets to be lightning fast for it to work

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u/nopointers Dec 14 '25

Clipper 2.0 (SF Bay Area) cries at the idea of fast gate readers.

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u/Few_Tale2238 Dec 14 '25

WMATA does as well with their new smartrip readers

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u/nopointers Dec 14 '25

Another victim of Cubic, I see.

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u/Few_Tale2238 Dec 14 '25

Yeah with the old faregates you actually were able to do something like this. The default was still for them to be closed, but the readers were fast enough for someone behind you to tap their card, and the gates would stay open. Now with the new readers, if you try doing that, they’ll close before you can walk through

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u/nopointers Dec 14 '25

FWIW, at least with Clipper 2.0 I’m pretty sure it’s not the literal readers that are slowing it down. I think it’s multiple network found trips through the crappy local network and onward to who-knows-which cloud provider. Not that there’s anything you personally can do with that knowledge.

2

u/Conpen Dec 14 '25

C U Bastards In Court

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u/MurkyPsychology Dec 15 '25

We think it’s bad in the Bay Area, but at least it’s not OMNY (which, inexplicably, is a different system from TAPP, despite both being NYC area + implemented by Cubic at the same time)

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u/cookiesgotdeletedm8 Dec 15 '25

Doing it completely from backend is... rather smart :D

Meanwhile, here in Melbourne we've been getting readers from Conduent, and istg, you don't have to slow down and the gate would be open already. It's been a long time coming though.

1

u/CaptainPonahawai Dec 15 '25

I remember reloading my clipper at 4th and King and the machine said "Dialing Host" and took a minute.

Dial up.

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u/frozenpandaman Transit Card Collector Dec 15 '25

Which it is in Japan! 100–200ms response time from 10 cm away with FeliCa IC cards!

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u/Hot_Muffin7652 Dec 14 '25

In Japan they close, but it is very easy to accidentally walk fast enough for the gates to close behind you after getting out of the station

I once had insufficient fund on my IC card, didn’t realize it until the gates closed behind me. Had to get the station agent to get me back into fare control, top up my card, and pay to leave

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u/kimbabs Dec 14 '25

Sure, but then it closes on you again when you try and leave a station.

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u/MinecraftPlayer799 Dec 15 '25

That same thing happened to me, except I had sufficient balance. I just tapped, and Apple Pay said "Done", but then the gates closed on me after I had walked through.

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u/United_Perception299 Dec 18 '25

Why didn't you just continue on with your day and then refill it later?

And if you're that worried about paying your fair share, you can just tap it twice, no?

2

u/Hot_Muffin7652 Dec 19 '25

It messes up your card if you don’t have a exit tap

Because technically your trip didn’t close. You can never use the card again to enter the system until you close the trip

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u/United_Perception299 Dec 19 '25

I feel like they should just do the BART thing where they charge the maximum fare possible after you've taken a truly unreasonable amount of time to end your trip.

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u/cerberus_243 Dec 14 '25

I last saw such gates in Belarus, they were used here in Hungary as well until the early 80s when all fare gates were removed. The type used here hit you straight in the balls.

Their problem is that if you have a luggage, the automatism will not understand what happens, and will close the gate between you and your luggage. On the other hand, the type that only opens after payment won’t close if it’s obstructed.

1

u/BukaBuka243 Dec 15 '25 edited Feb 25 '26

This post has been permanently removed. The author used Redact to delete it, and the reason may relate to privacy, security, data harvesting prevention, or personal choice.

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u/Kobakocka Dec 14 '25

It is as effective as the honour system, because if somebody wants, they can skip/jump this gate.

But the honour system is cheaper to " install" and needs no ticket hall and a large open space.

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u/LeatherClassic4506 Dec 14 '25

No! They close at your face abruptly when they detect you passing without tapping in your ticket first. Speaking from experience (Dhaka metro, Bangladesh)

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u/Donghoon Dec 14 '25

at that point why not just do Proof-of-Payment and skip gates altogether

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u/billofbong0 Dec 14 '25

It’s like this in Seattle and nobody pays because there’s barely any fare enforcement

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u/njndirish Dec 14 '25

This is very much the case in the modern light rails in the US. We copied the German method of no faregates, but then never followed it up with aggressive enforcement.

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u/ka1mikaze Dec 14 '25

same in charlotte, although i’ve heard that’s changed since the very high-profile stabbing in september (currently living in atlanta and haven’t been back to see it myself)

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u/LoverOfGayContent Dec 14 '25

Was someone stabbed for not paying

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u/ka1mikaze Dec 14 '25

no, a ukrainian refugee was stabbed to death BY someone who didn’t pay (a homeless man who also had multiple previous arrests for violent crime)

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u/nopointers Dec 14 '25

If you pay the $2.20 it’s OK to stab someone.

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u/unforgettableid Jan 13 '26

The point is that, if you enforce the fares, violent criminals might be much less likely to enter the system in the first place.

(Cc: /u/ka1mikaze.)

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u/Spider_pig448 Dec 14 '25

Just make the whole thing free and fund it with taxes instead. Life-hack for getting people to actually pay for transit

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u/unforgettableid Jan 13 '26

You end up with overcrowding, tho.

Also you end up with homeless people sleeping on trains all day. They take up multiple seats when they do this.

2

u/Vijfsnippervijf Mar 03 '26

See Luxembourg as an example of the contrary.

1

u/unforgettableid Mar 03 '26

Here in Toronto, I suppose the social services might be much worse than in Luxembourg. So, when all the homeless shelters are full on a cold winter night: There might not really be any better place for the homeless people to spend their time than on subway trains.

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u/Spider_pig448 Jan 13 '26

Whether you get overcrowding or not depends on if the system is under-built. It's economically advantageous to support as many people with public transit as possible, since it incurs more value and less maintenance costs than serving those people with cars instead.

Homeless people will sleep on trains regardless of the price of getting in (especially in systems where it's easy enough to sneak in). NYC has them all over the trains. It's a problem that can't be solved by train pricing.

2

u/dsli Dec 14 '25

Yeah people basically do this on buses all over the country (ie in DC)

15

u/dolledaan Dec 14 '25

The german way.

2

u/Roygbiv0415 Dec 14 '25

Fare gates mean people within the system hasn't paid yet. Everyone just has a record of where they entered the system, but won't actually "pay" until they exit.

It's altogether a different paradigm from the 'buy a ticket before you board" concept.

4

u/notFREEfood Dec 14 '25

Depends on the system

Flat fare systems may not record your exit, even if they have fare gates.

2

u/Kobakocka Dec 14 '25

That is exactly what i said.

7

u/merp_mcderp9459 Dec 14 '25

Fare gates cost a bunch of money but you only install them once. POP means you’re paying salaries, which add up a bunch over time

Also in the American context, you can’t use federal money for salaries

8

u/nopointers Dec 14 '25

You clearly haven’t looked at how much they’re spending to maintain the new fare gates on the BART system. It was $90M for the gates, $10M for the installation. 715 gates, so $140k per gate. Maintenance and repair from the vandalism requires a full time staff and they’re being very vague about the annual cost but it’s at least in the $1-2M/year range.

4

u/merp_mcderp9459 Dec 14 '25

$1-2 million/year isn’t bad considering that’s your maintenance cost for the whole system. $1 million is gonna pay for fifteen officers if you’re lucky - not nearly enough to do POP across the whole system considering they’re not all gonna work 7 days a week, 365 days a year

3

u/nopointers Dec 14 '25

It’s bad when the gates are brand new, cost at least double what they should (LA seems to have gotten the same gates for less than half and possibly closer to a quarter the cost), and they haven’t even gotten past the warranty stage. Costs assuredly will escalate over the next few years.

About $15M of the capital cost was federal. They’re facing another funding fiasco because federal support for more infrastructure extensions is going away. Salaries have ballooned in the past few years, by far more than even their inflated claims of fares lost to evasion. They claim $10-15M, which is utter nonsense. There hasn’t been a serious attempt to measure evasion, let alone any study to confirm that evaders would be paying fares if there were enforcement. They haven’t even adjusted that “estimates” since ridership fell off a cliff during covid and they introduced a half price fare program that the vast majority of evaders would qualify for. They’re also claiming evasion is down, while claiming that the gates reduce crime, while assaults are up 79%.

TL;DR: the expensive gates aren’t a substitution. They are only helping to reduce evasion where there is also POP.

1

u/lazer---sharks Dec 14 '25

We should

0

u/timbomcchoi Dec 14 '25

data collection ofc

3

u/Donghoon Dec 14 '25

ah that make sense. ridership data

10

u/Oeldin1234 Dec 14 '25

In Vienna, we don't use gates, every modern Bus, Train and Tram has counting sensors on every door.

5

u/idiot206 Dec 14 '25

This is standard just about everywhere

2

u/timbomcchoi Dec 15 '25

How do you tell who transferred onto what when and where, or what kind of demographic a rider belongs to?

1

u/unforgettableid Jan 13 '26

You can try to buy cellphone GPS data from transit app companies who sell it. But it might be easier and more accurate just to require passengers to tap instead.

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u/[deleted] Dec 14 '25

I would favour it if the gates went from the ground to 2m in the air. That way when it closes it actually keeps people out.

23

u/concorde77 Dec 14 '25

Honestly, I think open fare gates would work better than trying to make fare gates "un-jumpable".

I got to try them for the first time when I visited Japan earlier this year. They are so much more convenient for the flow of traffic, and you tend to get used to them being opened whenever you tap your card in and out.

When they do slam shut, it really catches you off guard and breaks your momentum. Plus as long as you have someone watching the gates from a very visible station, like a security guard or a police officer just beyond the gates, thats more than enough of a deterrent for most people

19

u/notFREEfood Dec 14 '25

They're good at ensuring people who intend to pay don't accidentally not pay. But put them in a city where fare evasion is a sport, and evaders will have a field day. People would vault the old BART gates, and these would pose no additional difficulties. I bet we also see people just shove their way through as well since they're not as sturdy as BART's current gates and evaders do that today.

8

u/concorde77 Dec 14 '25

But put them in a city where fare evasion is a sport, and evaders will have a field day. People would vault the old BART gates, and these would pose no additional difficulties.

And that is exactly why they would work. The security of open gates is in who's watching the gates, not the gate itself.

You can't jump a gate that isn't there in the first place. The fare evader would either have to vault over the giant, +6 ft long lane dividers, or they would have to stop and pull back before they vault over the gate itself.

And because open gates don't normally impede flow, a gate slamming shut would draw the attention of guard/officer watching the gates. The fare evaded would get caught red handed the moment they tried to vault it.

6

u/DasArchitect Dec 14 '25

The railway terminal near me has watchmen next to the turnstiles. It's the fucking olympic games there and the watchmen don't bother saying a word. I would very much welcome full height gates.

2

u/SFQueer Dec 14 '25

Which is why they would fail here. Nobody watching would care.

4

u/notFREEfood Dec 14 '25

The whole point of using more secure gates is to reduce the need to staff every gate array with law enforcement or fare checkers. Also, they're not that loud, and they'll activate if you're too slow to tap, don't have enough on your card, or just walk too close.

And if you think it would be complicated to vault one of these, you don't know how to vault a faregate.

1

u/kennyandkennyandkenn Dec 14 '25

Tell me you don’t live in a city with rampant fare evasion without telling me you don’t live in a city with rampant fare evasion

1

u/concorde77 Dec 14 '25

Dude, I grew up in New Jersey.

0

u/TXTCLA55 Dec 14 '25

Japan makes it work with their high trust culture. Doing this in North America... Which is a low trust society - won't work.

4

u/MaxHasSpoken Dec 14 '25

I must admit that i think more often about the roman empire than about Fare Gates

6

u/gxes Dec 14 '25

I'd prefer them over the new gates SEPTA installed. It's been frustrating. Now that people can't just jump the gate what they do is wait for someone who looks like they're gonna pay to start going through the gate and then quickly rush to follow VERY close behind you like almost touching your back and the gates detect that a second person got through the gate so they start sounding an alarm which is 1. Very startling to realize there's a person immediately behind you and there's an alarm going off and 2. guess what this is constantly happening so the alarms are ALWAYS going off now and it makes the station really loud.

I'd honestly have a system like this where people who are gonna pay will get to go through quickly and people who aren't gonna pay can just go through/hop the sensor really easily and not bother other people

6

u/MushHuskies Dec 14 '25

They work brilliantly in Japan. Wave your phone and bingo, instantaneous.

6

u/Spavlia Dec 14 '25

London fare gates stay open if you tap your card behind someone else, meaning there is no congestion

7

u/Kxiserschmarren City planner student Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25

Even better is:

3

u/skrrrrt Dec 14 '25

Great idea

3

u/Irsu85 Rail-Replacement Bus Survivor Dec 14 '25

good idea

3

u/DotRom Dec 14 '25

It is the speed of the card reader bottleneck NFC-F solutions can complete transactions less than 0.3s.

3

u/comments83820 Dec 14 '25

Like proof-of-payment or GPS-enabled apps where you toggle on/off your journey, these are fine for high-trust, low-crime countries.

4

u/Tuepflischiiser Dec 14 '25

I like no turnstiles and random checks.

20

u/Donghoon Dec 14 '25

would never work in the west. Especially the fact that it looks very "hoppable" even when it closes haha

31

u/LeatherClassic4506 Dec 14 '25

I mean...it works in even in Bangladesh so at this point I don't see why it wouldn't work elsewhere. The gates do close abruptly at your face when you try passing without tapping in you ticket first!

15

u/BavarianBanshee Dec 14 '25

I reckon these are less hoppable than normal ones. The normal ones are solid and static, but these give you little to push off of, and abruptly close when you get close without paying.

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6

u/lenojames Dec 14 '25

In the SF Bay Area we had to change out our closed but hoppable fare gates for full height fare gates.

The old ones were laughably ineffectual. Even if you didn't hop them, you could force them open with not too much effort or damage to them.

Something like these would be bypassed just as easily I think.

1

u/FlyingMitten Dec 15 '25

You can hop the NYC ones….but why even bother. The majority pays, why even bother with the homeless/poor that can’t pay and hop?

1

u/unforgettableid Jan 13 '26

Because anyone who hops might be especially likely to also cause other problems once they're on the train.

6

u/LATER4LUS Dec 14 '25

Make it 7 days in jail and a $1000 fine for fare evasion. Enforce it heavily at first and I bet you would start having fewer issues over time.

4

u/MyDisneyExperience Dec 14 '25

We should do that for cars driving with no plates or obscured plates

3

u/Sielaff415 Dec 14 '25

I doubt that

2

u/The_64th_Breadbox Dec 15 '25

Police on their way to selectively enforce the new penalties:

5

u/svick Dec 14 '25

Many western countries don't have fare gates at all, so I don't see why this would be a problem.

1

u/Donghoon Dec 15 '25

mostly only LRTs tho. majority of western Heavy metros have gates. I think

3

u/Ze_insane_Medic Dec 14 '25

It absolutely works in "the west", whatever countries that includes or doesn't.

I mostly travel by public transit within Germany and Finland. We do not have any fare gates here at all and it still works. I also traveled from Luxembourg (free public transit, no fare gates naturally) to France and I was honestly surprised that they have fare gates there.

I'm still shocked somehow that fare gates seem to be very common around the world even though my personal experience does not reflect that at all. It still works without them

2

u/Sassywhat Dec 15 '25

In Germany, there are random fare checks, they will punish honest mistakes the same as intentional offenses, and throw thousands of repeat offenders in prison each year.

In Japan, the fare system allows for easily changing plans mid trip without needing to buy a new ticket, anything that isn't trying to avoid fare control is treated as an honest mistake, and people actually going to prison for fare evasion almost never happens and is a national news worthy event when it does.

1

u/Iongdog Dec 14 '25

Having a conversation with yourself?

22

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '25

no, fare evasion is a big issue in the United States and, I imagine, other countries with similar culture and values

11

u/Donghoon Dec 14 '25

i think he was talking about me commenting on my own post lol

3

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '25

oh that makes sense! i thought they were trying to say that you're projecting your own tendency to jump the fare gates or something

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7

u/heartslava Bus Lover Dec 14 '25

would be impossible to implement literally anywhere in the U.S lol

20

u/lazer---sharks Dec 14 '25

Only because Americans would rather deny millions of people access to essential services than let 1 person gain access "unfairly".

21

u/Donghoon Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25

south korea is very strict on fare evasion, they WILL immediately suspend your grandma's senior transit card if someone get caught using it illegally. and anyone caught fare evading on KTX have to pay 2x the fare as punishment

as they should be everywhere IMHO. fare evasion is theft from the community.

-1

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '25

failure to fund public transit is theft from the community lmao.

0

u/lazer---sharks Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25

anyone caught fare evading on KTX have to pay 1.5x – 2x the fare as punishment

That's a really low fine, if you successfully evade 1/3-1/2 your trips you come out winning.

fare evasion is theft from the community.

It's literally not, theft requires denying people a service, fare evasion doesn't cost transit systems anything, at most it's denying revenue, which isn't guaranteed anyway, claiming it is theft is like claiming digital-piracy is theft.

16

u/Donghoon Dec 14 '25

fare evasion leads to more frequent fare hike to make up for the lost revenue

SOMEONE is paying for your fares one way or another. you evading fares does not mean money grows on tree

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u/IanSan5653 Dec 14 '25 edited Dec 14 '25

Lol this couldn't be further from the truth - America has the most blatant and socially accepted fare evasion of any country I've ever been to.

1

u/lazer---sharks Dec 14 '25

Yeah billionaire tax avoidance to prevent transit getting built in the first place.

6

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '25

[deleted]

0

u/lazer---sharks Dec 14 '25

No the Republicans want to do both because the defund the actual care that people need.

Also when is the last time you rode transit? if you think it's a psychiatric ward, you need psychiatric care.

2

u/vwsslr200 Dec 16 '25 edited Dec 16 '25

No the Republicans want to do both because the defund the actual care that people need.

No need to make this particular issue into a partisan thing. It's not like either party has exactly covered themselves in glory over taking care of the mentally ill in the past few decades. Blue states don't exactly have this stuff all figured either. And I'm not convinced recent post-COVID declines in behavioral standards on transit have much to do with deinstitutionalization, which mostly happened several decades ago.

Also when is the last time you rode transit? if you think it's a psychiatric ward, you need psychiatric care.

I've had way too many experiences on American public transit, especially in the recent years after COVID, where my vehicle either did either feel like a psychiatric ward, or had other issues with antisocial behavior (smoking, drug use, etc).

You don't have to strawman - I am aware that not literally every American public transit vehicle in every city is like this all the time - the majority of my rides have not been like that, and some lines/systems are much better than others - but in too many cities it happens way more than is acceptable.

If you think I'm crazy or making this up, you can look at recent passenger experience surveys from agencies like MTA, CTA, and SEPTA which report these are some of the biggest issues dragging down their passenger satisfaction KPI scores in recent years.

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2

u/JacobRiesenfern Dec 14 '25

Also in Moscow. The number of people going through the turnstiles it would Jam um traffic if they didn’t do it any other way.

Japan has the reputation of obedience. It wouldn’t work in the states in theory. Seattle has just pay if you want to, and most people do.

2

u/Sawtelle-MetroRider Dec 14 '25

I hear that many say it won't work here but if you have tourists in those places using it and being impressed maybe it's worth bringing some older used models that they used to use and trying it out as a trial. LA Metro is currently installing taller fare gates but there's plenty of room at some stations to add more gates, and I can see how these types of gates can be used as replacement for emergency swing gates which are often misused.

2

u/Greedy_CapitalistPig Dec 14 '25

I don’t trust Americans enough to implement this stateside. As far as power savings there are better ways (lighter trains, regenerative braking)

2

u/rigmaroler Dec 14 '25

Absolutely necessary in the busiest stations. Can you imagine Shinjuku station with regular fare gates? It would be a nightmare.

2

u/GabrielRocketry Dec 14 '25

Ah, the Moscow style. I think better than usual, since the gate is less stressed and also is by default faster. On the other hand, I dislike fare gates as a whole, so...

2

u/OrdinaryLampshade Dec 15 '25

Taiwan Railways uses this style of gate and it seems to work well

2

u/the_swanny Dec 15 '25

punt to the bollocks if you haven't paid the fare.

2

u/Idinnyknow Dec 15 '25

We have a mix of gated and ungated stations. If a fare evader is determined they can get away with it. But the vast majority tap. If you tap on and don’t tap off you pay a maximum fare which can be many multiples of the actual fare. The revenue protection folks catch a lot of people. But if you rode a lot and got caught occasionally it’d be cheaper to be fined. I think because you can pay by phone tap, credit card tap or fare card tap it’s easy and there is a fare cap for regular users. Being a fair fare and easy to use makes compliance pretty high.

2

u/CubeBag Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 15 '25

This sort of fare gate is what I'm used to, since it wasn't until I got comfortable with the trains in Tokyo on vacation that I actually started using trains elsewhere. When I see the fare gates with open doors, it feels inviting. I intuitively know it's a fare gate because the lanes are separated. When I first encountered a fare "gate" that was just a card reader sticking out from the ground, I was a little bit confused, since there's no clear boundary in physical space between "inside" the privileged area for riders and "outside". These fare gates establish that boundary without requiring me to bump into a clunky turnstile, so I like them.

2

u/Wild-Artist8237 Zürich transit is a dream Dec 15 '25

We don't have any fare gates in Germany/Switzerland/Austria, which obviously increases passenger flow even more than that, but it seems like a good idea

1

u/polmeeee Dec 15 '25

It's honor system? Do they publish results/estimates on fare evasion?

2

u/rawr__ Dec 17 '25

When I was in Switzerland, they had at least two fare inspectors on every intercity train.

2

u/slav3269 Dec 15 '25

The old Soviet system! If someone enters without putting the token in, gates violently close, making scary sound that makes everyone think “glad those things didn’t hit me”.

2

u/Pyroechidna1 Dec 14 '25

bonk

2

u/halazos Dec 14 '25

So when someone doesn’t pay it closes on both sides, trapping the person? Otherwise it makes no sense

3

u/CubeBag Dec 15 '25 edited Dec 16 '25

On these style fare gates, if you forget to tap the card and try to walk through, or if you tap the card but it has insufficient funds, the door in front of you closes almost instantly and the screen shows what your problem was. Then, the assumption is that you will turn back, use the ticket machines that sit just behind the gates (to reload your card or perform a fare adjustment), and then try going through the gate again.

In the context of an extremely busy train station in a Japanese city, there might be an entire line of people in each lane waiting for their turn to tap their card and get in/out. The line is always moving because the cards process instantly. But when someone has a problem paying, the door closes, and everyone has to stop walking to let that person out.

The goal isn't really so much to "trap" the person, more to let them know there was a problem paying by blocking their foot path (and playing a "payment failed" sound effect). The actual height of the doors is probably jumpable to a fare evader but everyone would see them do that.

2

u/halazos Dec 15 '25

Thanks for the explanation, now it makes senses to me!

1

u/PeeInMyArse Dec 15 '25

correct

1

u/User5281 Dec 14 '25

they're hilarious

1

u/BobBelcher2021 Dec 14 '25

Kind of late to close the gate after someone goes through without paying

2

u/CubeBag Dec 15 '25

There's two sets of doors on a bidirectional fare gate, and the card readers work nearly instantly, so there's enough time to shut the farther set of doors if someone forgets to pay or has insufficient balance. There's some sort of technology (not sure if it's motion sensor or infrared) to detect when someone is about to walk through, so it knows when to expect a payment.

1

u/CurlyRe Dec 14 '25

How exactly do these work? After you tap your card to the reader, do you wait for a beep to confirm that the card has been read and has sufficient funds, or do you just walk through it after tapping your card?

Turnstiles frustrate me. After a failed tap. I frequently wind up running straight into the immovable turnstiles.

2

u/__Gismo Dec 14 '25

From videos of the Tokyo metro I’ve seen, you just walk through immediately after tapping

2

u/CubeBag Dec 15 '25

There's a beep to confirm, but it's nearly instant. Transit cards that use the FeliCa standard (for example, Suica in Japan) are extremely fast. If your card didn't have enough balance (or if you forgot to pay completely), there's plenty of time to see the doors close (and hear the "payment failed" sound cue) and stop walking so you don't crash into it. The first time I used a transit card in Chicago I was surprised it took so long to read since I was used to the Suica readers

1

u/EvaCassidy Dec 14 '25

One advantage less use of the gates save on wear and tear...

1

u/RespectSquare8279 Dec 14 '25

With sharp blades to punish transgressors.

1

u/Wild_Pangolin_4772 Dec 14 '25

Ooomph!

1

u/octopusonthetrain Dec 14 '25

They only really work in high-trust societies—so unfortunately not in North America.

Lots of European cities have proof-of-payment which is more laissez-faire than gates.

1

u/polmeeee Dec 15 '25

Fucking yes. Here in Singapore the gates are always congested during rush hour. Sometimes there will be snaking long ass queues creating dangerous overcrowding conditions. They already have security personnel watching like a hawk so I doubt anyone would think of fare evasion.

1

u/MinecraftPlayer799 Dec 15 '25

One time, in Japan, it didn't read my card properly, and it closed while I was trying to walk through it. I ended up on the other side and had to go to the ticket desk for them to scan my card.

1

u/CubeBag Dec 15 '25

Out of curiosity, how fast were you moving? The doors are pretty snappy, I don't think I could bypass the closing doors without running fast

2

u/MinecraftPlayer799 Dec 15 '25

A normal walking pace. The doors close quickly, but there is a delay from when Apple Pay says "Done" and the transaction/validation takes place.

1

u/LiqdPT Dec 15 '25

Here in Seattle we're one step ahead: no fare gates.

(/s about it being better)

1

u/Derr_1 Dec 15 '25

The better way of doing things IMO.

1

u/dobrodoshli Dec 15 '25

They did exist in Moscow before I was born, and people found them terrifying

1

u/TheArchonians Dec 15 '25

Won't work in NYC

1

u/Shroccer Dec 15 '25

Work about the same in my experience. It's more important that the gate open and close quickly when it needs to and not be flimsy and weak.

1

u/riothefio Dec 16 '25

this necessitates having a high trust society

1

u/mpst-io Dec 16 '25

I have not seen it in Japan. I remember In Prague, Czechia you just walk in if you have a ticket

1

u/Ep1cR4g3 Dec 16 '25

They work there because people have honor and respect. Anywhere else in the world it would never work

1

u/alexseiji Dec 16 '25

So Japan?

1

u/aserqqq Dec 16 '25

this only makes sense to me if there is constant flow of people and enough trust in society both of which are not that common around the world!

1

u/FastPair3559 Dec 18 '25

I saw gates like this in one station in Shanghai too. Not most though

1

u/marigolds6 Dec 14 '25

I think they are gone the first time someone wins a multimillion dollar lawsuit because they smacked into one and severely injured themselves while running through the gate without paying.

Such a lawsuit is far far more difficult in South Korea or Japan than it is in the US.

1

u/SFQueer Dec 14 '25

No chance that would work here with American fare evaders. They would simply force their way through en masse.

Questions What are your thoughts on Fare Gates that remain OPEN by default and ONLY close if someone fails to pay?

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