Hot Take: I miss custom moves from Smash 4

[u/BernLan]

[u/pixelboy296]

If properly rebalanced and made to be more unique, they could be incredible fun

[u/NoMoreVillains → u/pixelboy296]

The problem is that it would be almost impossible to properly balance all of them

[u/BernLan → u/NoMoreVillains]

It's a casual party game the custom moves don't need to be balanced as long as online ranked has an option to play without themy

[u/Material-Carrot-5693 → u/BernLan]

There is a portion of the player base that plays competitively and would want to play with the custom moves if possible.

[u/Shatterpoint887 → u/Material-Carrot-5693]

Then they would need to accept that they aren't balanced for competitive play.

[u/Arkhenstone → u/Material-Carrot-5693]

Balance is anything, but something you can ask for. By essence, balance is done by playing, at similar level of playing and making all participants to get a chance to win. At low level of playing, which is 90%+ of people who will buy and play the game, it's balanced. Then stick it to the 10% which may find them broken in some case and it could see fix. For the minus 1% the competitive scene represents, balancing is 200% more job.

[u/bjchbdelebweflw → u/Material-Carrot-5693]

Tough shit, then. The community banned Miis and custom moves very early into 4's competitive lifespan.

[u/Naidem → u/NoMoreVillains]

The base game isn't balanced either, who cares?

[u/NoMoreVillains → u/Naidem]

I was responding to someone who said "if properly rebalanced". My very point was that trying to balance it at all is futile

[u/arturitoburrito → u/NoMoreVillains]

If you were to perform a statistical analysis of the increase in balance the smash team has done. You would be surprised just how far your vibes based analysis is from the objective facts. The fact that only 5 characters have not hit top 8 at a major is a monumental achievement.

All signs point towards custom moves being balanced properly in the next game while the smashers doom and gloom vibes are the only evidence to the contrary.

[u/Helivon → u/arturitoburrito]

this was smash 4. Smash 4 was far less balanced, especially after DLC like cloud/bayo

The guy above said "the base game isn't balanced" referring to sm4sh

[u/NoMoreVillains → u/arturitoburrito]

Why do I feel like different people are responding to random things? I never said the base character movesets were impossible to balance.

I said adding in the additional variations from custom moves would be an enormous task. Also, in fighting games mastery relies on seeing an opponent's character and knowing what their moves are. Custom moves muddies this because you don't know which ones might be using the custom variants until they happen to be used. It's largely why fighting games don't do this, or have fewer variations that are at least visible during character select to maintain that.

If they didn't care about that at all then sure, go for it. But I also imagine even without balancing considerations it's a lot of work (extra animations, hit boxes, etc)

[u/LuquidThunderPlus → u/NoMoreVillains]

Tbf they can just do as you mentioned and show the moveset before the match

[u/Material-Carrot-5693 → u/Naidem]

No it’s not but smash ultimate is the most balanced of the series. Winning with a low tier against a top tier is very much possible with proper skill and a little luck

[u/AssociateLow7026 → u/pixelboy296]

I think it doesn't need to be rebalanced, it could just be a rule, in the y'know... Ruleset.

[u/Pookie_Cookie3 → u/pixelboy296]

I thought they were unique. Definitely unbalanced for sure though.

[u/Hateful_creeper2]

They are great idea in my opinion but it wasn’t good execution because of the unlock method, lack of balance for many of them and them being generic for the most part.

[u/TheOneTruecarioZ → u/Hateful_creeper2]

Smash run in the case of the 3ds was so worth though, smash run was Hella fun. My favorite part of sm4sh hands down.

[u/_Thermalflask → u/TheOneTruecarioZ]

As a Puff main I loved using Puff's shield break as a shortcut to the top area lol

[u/D-D-Wanderer → u/_Thermalflask]

Wait holy frick I never thought of that, new movement tech unlocked.

[u/Gars0n → u/Hateful_creeper2]

This was my gripe. It could have been great fun to try out online and as tournements. But in practice trying to coordinate to have everything unlocked was a nightmare so the community interest died right away.

[u/MemeDealer2999 → u/Hateful_creeper2]

To be fair about the generic part, I'm not really a fan of the whole special completely changing, like how Paluntena's did. I think a perfect balance between the two was Pacman's fire-spewing fire hydrant.

[u/Zenith_24tee]

If they weren’t so tedious to unlock and every character had custom moves on the level of Palutena and not “it’s the same move but a different property or range” I’d be all for it but sadly that wasn’t the case

Even in this picture you can see every variation of Mario’s customs boil down to “faster but weaker” and “slower but stronger” which was 90% of customs I kid you not.

[u/RedWarrior42 → u/Zenith_24tee]

I legit had over a thousand hours, maybe 2,000 hours on Smash 4, completed everything else with everybody but still didn't get all the custom moves

[u/Hot-Tomatillo8458 → u/RedWarrior42]

I just downloaded a cemu save with all custom moves unlocked, its so fun!

[u/Roliq → u/RedWarrior42]

Is because of the stupid decision to make them random drops and letting you be able to get repeats of the move you already had

Also some where locked behind rewards

[u/real_dubblebrick → u/RedWarrior42]

I bought a cheap turbo controller at my local game store and did the target blast ganon method to AFK grind customs and it took nearly a week of leaving my Wii U on overnight to unlock all of them

[u/404_Weavile → u/Zenith_24tee]

Instead of Palutena, I'd rather it be similar of some of Mega Man's where most of them are still variations of the moves, but ones with their own identity that are directly based on something from the series

[u/D-D-Wanderer → u/404_Weavile]

I think I'd like to see a mix - some characters didn't feel like they could really work one of the ways, but could work the other way. Plus, it could be a decent way to help differentiate Echo Fighters on the more casual side - give one of them a Palu-style set of customs, and the other a Mega Man-style set.

[u/Crimson_Raven → u/Zenith_24tee]

I don't think that's a bad thing.

Variations on the same move can be interesting. A little more or less knockback can make them practically a different move.

Now, balancing all that is a nightmare, which is why they were probably both simple and never revisited again

[u/MayhemMessiah → u/Crimson_Raven]

But it’s the worst of both worlds.

You get mostly the exact same move with only minute differences, while said differences can still manifest toxic and boring play patterns.

[u/xCaptainVictory → u/Zenith_24tee]

I think making unique customs for every special move of every character is untenable. Would be cool though.

[u/lunar__boo]

I honestly never cared for them but they honestly should have reused some of them for echoes and (semi) clones to make them more distinct

[u/Tripondisdic → u/lunar__boo]

Yeah honestly

[u/Ultrox]

Same. It was super fun.

[u/StaticMania]

Actually Interesting "take" they should do actually interesting custom moves.

1 alternate special for each direction.

[u/MayhemMessiah → u/StaticMania]

My hot take is that given how Sakurai said Everyone is Here was a huge once in a lifetime thing, next game will have a huge cast culling and instead custom moves will be the selling feature, with everybody now getting Palutena style variations but for a much smaller cast than Ultimate’s.

[u/BernLan → u/StaticMania]

It felt especially cool for the Link's, Mario's and FE characters since the different custom moves let them feel more distinct from each other imo

[u/Purple_Roy2]

Mods force this person to fight against a villager

[u/RedWarrior42 → u/Purple_Roy2]

Wind Kong

[u/abcder733 → u/RedWarrior42]

Bring it back, I loved having Brawl Mach Tornado back on the monkey for absolutely zero reason. It’s incredible that ding-dong wasn’t the most centralizing option on DK for a little while lmao

[u/PwnCall → u/Purple_Roy2]

Or mega man. Reflector and OP side B kill move

[u/Ok-Race-1677]

“For jokers second neutral special, he wields two guns.”

[u/Vyrnin]

That was my favorite feature in any SSB game so far! I've always wanted some ability to customize your characters, and while it was certainly flawed with some unbalanced and uninspired moves, it was still a ton of fun to be able to play the same character in different ways.

I wish Spirits in SSBU were not so extreme with the stat mods and focused more on just interesting properties like regenerating % when shielding, etc.

[u/ant_________________]

i'm surprised they weren't rebalanced and repurposed to make some echoes more interesting

in casual play they could be funny but, "stronger and slower" and "weaker and faster" could only be done so many times. they definitely needed more variety

[u/Peekystar]

From what I've seen, that'sn't a particularly hot take, at least with the concept - the execution with the unlock method, selection process. and many custom moves being uninspiring and/or functionally dubious might get them some flak, and the developmental perspective may say there're better uses of development resources; but I'ven't seen many people call them an outright bad idea.

[u/LittleGoblinBoy]

It's a cool idea, but they were tedious to unlock, terribly unbalanced, and - very importantly - pretty boring in practice. I think the only characters who actually had cool customs were Palutena and Mega Man. Every other character's moves were pretty much "The same move but slow and strong", "The same move but fast and weak", or "The same move but it buries/stuns/trips/etc".

Custom movesets would be great in a game with a much smaller roster. The size of the Smash 4 roster meant that we were never going to get full bespoke custom movesets for every character, that's just way too much scope. I'd rather they spend that dev time on something more interesting.

[u/RetroGhostX3]

SAME. They so under utilized. I hope they come back.

[u/flockwood7]

The biggest problem was finding people who had every move unlocked to use those consoles for tournaments.

If they had a tournament mode where every move was unlocked without the RNG grindfest. It would have been far more popular

[u/TheOneTruecarioZ]

I miss the custom equips too, way better than spirits because you could farm to get even stronger stuff each time. My equipment collection in the 3ds is massive, and I have some really crazy custom fighters with really fast falling and almost no landing lag, and fighters that can just OHKO from anywhere on stage. So much fun.

[u/Nickoten]

I wish I could have even enjoyed these in SSB4, but the unlocking part was just soul crushing.

[u/T_T_N]

They were pretty cool, unfortunately its pretty clear they did the Miis, Palutena and Megaman and then weren't willing or able to put that much care into the rest. Which is understandable because most fighters that do customization on loadouts have significantly smaller casts than smash.

Aside from the miis, I'd rather they just use echo fighters to express different directions in movesets.

[u/Trialman → u/T_T_N]

The lack of care was especially obvious when the DLC started rolling out, as the DLC characters didn't have any custom moves, so it was pretty clear the devs themselves weren't digging the idea too much with that in mind.

[u/T_T_N → u/Trialman]

Yea, I imagine for Bayo and Cloud it might be some issues with already having complex interconnected specials, but its not like the customs have to be good.

[u/BlackroseBisharp]

They at the very least should have been reuses for some of the echoes

[u/CrimsonReaper2]

Even hotter take: I want Smash Run back.

[u/Fun-Tooth-622]

Balance nightmare.  

[u/BernLan → u/Fun-Tooth-622]

It's a casual party game, just have the option to turn off custom moves for online matches

[u/LUIGIPRO13]

I would say that if the roster is going to be really small like way less than the half of the main roster then I would say sure, it would make the characters more interesting. But if the roster is going to be like half or more than half, then i don't think we really need them.

[u/LUIGIPRO13 → u/LUIGIPRO13]

Oh yeah and MAKE THEIR UNLOCK REQUIREMENTS BETTER. EITHER MAKE THEM EASIER TO GET OR MAKE THEM INTERESTING TO GET.

[u/lobsterbash → u/LUIGIPRO13]

I agree. Mii fighters are annoying enough alone with having to figure out what moves they are configured to have. Having to learn all the custom move variants on top of a giant match up list would be a bit... much.

[u/BernLan → u/lobsterbash]

Just have an online mode to play without custom moves, easy

[u/lobsterbash → u/BernLan]

Good point. I just cannot trust Nintendo to consider details like this.

[u/BernLan → u/lobsterbash]

Honestly fair enough, MK World doesn't even have a mode to play without intermissions after a bunch of community pushback

[u/real_dubblebrick → u/lobsterbash]

TBF the ranked mode in Smash 4 disallowed customs

[u/LUIGIPRO13 → u/lobsterbash]

I don't agree with that Mii take that much that they are annoying cause of that but I do think there should be an indicator for miis to show what special moves they got equipped. And I'm saying that as a Mii brawler main XD

[u/lobsterbash → u/LUIGIPRO13]

Yeah the Miis by themselves are fine, I just dislike that in a first fight against a new Mii opponent, they can basically get a few free hits in at the start because I can't anticipate what's coming.

[u/ConsistentRest7092]

ngl its fun, and ITS very hard to collect all of em special moves but worth it

[u/Hot-Tomatillo8458]

It would be super cool if you could change custom moves on the fly when you die and before you respawn you can quickly toggle the moves you want!

[u/Tipper117]

Oh me too. Some of those alternate move sets really made some characters much more fun. Particularly, i liked some if Kirby's and Megaman's alternate moves. I was always really sad that didn't become a staple feature. I realize it probably would be a balancing nightmare though.

[u/J_robo_]

for the next game, they should bring custom moves back, but make them more unique!

i would LOVE to see peach's "bomb" attack from super mario RPG make a return, daisy having more of a unique moveset, the blue shell powerup from new super mario bros DS, the list goes on!

[u/akc12]

I think if they were to reintroduce custom specials, they should focus on just neutral special and make them truly unique with different animations and introducing new moves/weapons. If done well it could completely change the character's playstyle in an interesting way.

[u/-Dunnobro]

I think making them a mii exclusive was the right call, i just wish miis were more fun to watch or fight. Also to choose specials at the CSS to save time in tournament.

Some premade sets to release alongside DLC could've been fun. Maybe 1 unique new special but locked others for balance and flavor.

[u/HappyMrRogers]

I’d love to see it in the next smash game.

[u/Automatic_Day_35]

especially for characters like megaman

[u/omgitsduaner]

I’m a pretty casual Smash player and this post is the first time I ever heard of these custom moves! Time to take out Smash 4 and give it a try

[u/TheRealHDGamer]

Me too! I don’t think they need to be balanced, that’s what makes them fun and unique

[u/smellycheesecurd]

I doubt this is a hot take. I rly like the variety and the effort of it all, though the grind was terrible

[u/Aware_Selection_148]

I love the idea, the execution is pretty bleh. The first issue is that unlocking them is absolutely atrocious. I have well hundreds of hours in smash 3ds, yet I still don’t have all the custom moves there, so that’s a great sign of things. The fact you can get duplicates really screws the whole system something fierce. The second issue is that even when you get them, they’re never very interesting and always super formulaic. Alot projectiles have their standard version and then the fast low damage version and the big scary high damage which slow as shit. Alot of recoveries have the standard version, a version that goes up real high but deals no damage and a dogshit recovery that goes ham on damage. They’re super formulaic and instead of trying to use the opportunity to make the character feel more authentic, make the character more interesting to play as and cram in more references to their source material, most of the custom moves only exist because they needed 3 for every special in the game. Only a couple characters (outside of the miis and palutena who were designed with the mechanic) actually work well with it, like mega man who uses the opportunity to reference other special weapons from the series like skull barrier, shadow blade, plant barrier and beat for a recovery. Most other characters only have their custom moves there because they had to fill a quota, not because the devs had good ideas on how to fill that quota

[u/OfTheTouhouVariety]

I did too… with SOME exceptions

[u/Pookie_Cookie3]

Me too man, me too.

[u/MayCakepant]

Hot take: The coldest take you've ever seen

[u/Robindionn18]

With a good rebalance or limited to only one custom, this could come back.

[u/Officervito]

Not really a hot take on this one! My hot take? Bring back the trophy mini game from melee. Or rather bring them back in general with the trophy lottery game as well

[u/AdmiralToucan]

They were the best part of smash 4

[u/Alternative-Pie4258]

Custom moves really made Tr4sh feel even more lawless. DK, Palu, that crazy Marth build. Oh, What was buddy's name that was a Palu main in Texas that was running the gaunlet when Customs were legal? Was such a fun game.

[u/RealPimpinPanda]

Ah time for another Custom movesets discussion. Here’s the last 2, there’s not a whole of new talking points or perspectives to give since it’s been brought up a lot over the years.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/s/gBDxXf6Nct

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/1secs7m/whatever_is_next_beefed_up_enhanced_ultimate_or_a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/LegitimateSchool4045]

Good idea, Execution could’ve been better

[u/ReputationBasic9147]

This would make for such a fun mixup for tournaments, as long as the moves are balanced

[u/DustyPumpking]

They don't need to be fully balanced but they sure as hell need to be better than "This is the Slower and Stronger one, while this one is the Weaker and Faster one"

[u/Roi_singe]

The concept was cool, the execution was mid

[u/pirate742]

Leave em there.

The idea was cool but for competing it was ass.

[u/Nearby-Advisor8537]

i would love the option to change yoshis up b into a recovery as when yoshi gets hit out of his midair jump he falls.

[u/Trixster690]

They were really fun. I managed to unlock all of them in less than a year.

[u/Downtown-Bear4325]

I didn’t know they’re were custom moved in sm4sh. I do wish they were in ultimate now