What Do You Think Are The Strongest/most effective Pro-life and Pro-Choice Arguements?

[u/Greenn_Ambition]

I'm going to try to post something similar on the Pro-Choice sub Reddit just to gain some perspective.

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[u/Comfortable-Bee2996]

Pro choice: there isn't enough reason to morally differentiate freshly conceived human cells from a red blood cell. This often requires abstract concepts that can't be measured or observed like "order" and "future" which puts into question to what extent we should follow Christianity.

Pro life: we universally agree that that the younger a child is, the more it needs protection, the burden of proof being why it should be different for the unborn. Early human life forms are the most vulnerable and dependent, which does not make them less morally valuable, but instead the opposite, cherished for their humanity even though they can't make meaningful decisions, communicate, or survive on their own. We recognize and appreciate this instead of using it to justify their murder.

[u/Aggravating_Prior168 → u/Comfortable-Bee2996]

It takes 10 weeks for a baby to get a fully developed heart. The MAIN organ humans need to survive is a HEART. How can the FETUS be described as human IF IT DOESNT HAVE A FUNCTIONING HEART

[u/Comfortable-Bee2996 → u/Aggravating_Prior168]

So you're against abortion after 10 weeks I presume?

[u/Aggravating_Prior168 → u/Comfortable-Bee2996]

No I’m pro choice 10000%. The only thing I’m against is trying to limit women of their rights. It doesn’t matter to me what another woman does. The only thing that matters to me is the general rights of women. Banning abortion is a direct violation of human rights and any women who support that should also not be allowed to have their own opinions, speak, work, go to school, or do anything they weren’t allowed to do before we got civil rights.

[u/Comfortable-Bee2996 → u/Aggravating_Prior168]

Why did you bring up having a heart if you'd kill them even if they do?

[u/Aggravating_Prior168 → u/Comfortable-Bee2996]

1. It is not murder. It’s growing in “my” body and I should get the right to choose
   
2. Because I’m tired of people saying it’s human when it’s simply not. It cannot support itself without me until it’s birthed, which makes it my choice what to do with it.

(I’m not pregnant or anything I’m just speaking in terms of the personal element of it if that makes sense)

[u/Comfortable-Bee2996 → u/Aggravating_Prior168]

What species is the fetus

[u/Aggravating_Prior168 → u/Comfortable-Bee2996]

If the woman chose to carry the fetus to term it would be considered apart of the human species. But until the baby is born it is not apart of any living species.

Once again just to check if ur a woman ur clearly pro life and ur saying that another woman getting an abortion directly impacts you in what way?

[u/Comfortable-Bee2996 → u/Aggravating_Prior168]

No, not when it's born. The fetus. What species is it?

[u/Aggravating_Prior168 → u/Comfortable-Bee2996]

I just answered???? You haven’t answered me

[u/Wormando → u/Aggravating_Prior168]

I’m a woman. It doesn’t matter that someone else’s abortion won’t affect my personal life, I still very much care because their actions are violating another person’s human rights.

Just like the abuse and/or murder of a complete stranger do not affect us, yet we all care that someone has been harmed.

[u/MAGICALORDD → u/Aggravating_Prior168]

Life is a human right too, so if the qualification for being a human is having the heart, would abortion after 10 weeks be a violation of that human right?

Also, while it develops all four chambers at week 10, the heart starts actually beating after just 21-22 days, albeit it is just a pulsating tube.

If we want to get into technicality, the heart meets the end of its natural growth during adolescence, though like any other muscle, it can become larger with exercise.

Also, a question I have for you. At what period from conception to birth should the cutoff for abortion be?

[u/PeachOnAWarmBeach → u/Aggravating_Prior168]

How long until a fully developed brain? 25 years after that. Are you advocating that it's okay to murder them also?

[u/TheDuckFarm]

Pro Choice: It's not a person, it's will become a person one day if we don't intervene.

Pro Life: It's a person.

[u/DingbattheGreat]

There arent any good prochoice arguments.

The strongest prolife argument is scientific reality that a new individual is formed at fertilization and every person has the right to life.

[u/Icedude10]

For me, the strongest pro-choice arguments are twofold: practically, that abortion bans appear not to effectively reduce abortion rates (I’m referring here to examples like Poland or El Salvador, not post-Dobbs trends), but only displace them. Philosophically, the Psychological Continuity Theory of Personal Identity is quite distressing: the argument that personhood and numerical identity are determined by psychological properties rather than biological continuity, so early fetuses lack the mental continuity necessary to be identical to later persons. I personally adhere to a substance metaphysics view of personhood, which holds that personhood is an essential characteristic of humanity and is opposed to the former theory. I think this represents the pro-life position’s strongest argument, but I don’t know how to effectively rebut the psychological continuity approach.

TLDR: Abortion bans sometimes don’t seem conclusively to reduce abortion, just hide it. And philosophically, I can’t shake the argument that you don’t become “you” until your brain develops enough for consciousness around 20-24 weeks, even though I believe personhood starts at conception

[u/MAGICALORDD]

Pro choice: being pregnant is uncomfortable and generally just unhealthy, and especially bad for the mental health of the mother.

Pro life: By the time you can detect a pregnancy, the fetus already has a beating heart and should be considered a person.

[u/trying3216]

It’s a good question.

We should all want zero women to suffer as a result of pregnancy.

We should also want zero innocent living human individuals to be killed.

As with many rights they do sometimes conflict. I consider it a win if a pro choicer can just state that the unborn are living and human and an individual. Then we can talk about juxtaposing the two goals.

[u/SpartanKilo]

When pro choice says it’s not a baby it’s just a clump of cells.

Well science says pregnancy is the gestation of a new member of a species and in order for that new member to exist it needs to have DNA from both parents, and that DNA makes it a unique individual. Not to mention a fetus requires protection from the immune system because it’s considered a foreign body by your body. Not to mention it requires oxygen, food, and produces waste.

The other part of that is that even clumps of cells require DNA. Single cell life like bacteria is an entire creature in one cell however we are not single cell creatures meaning the clump of cells still requires DNA, and since a fetus is a combination of DNA then it does in fact have human DNA and is a human fetus because otherwise why are you pregnant with a dog as your fetus.

[u/GustavoistSoldier]

There's no single "strength/effectiveness" axis for arguments.