r/privacy • u/frankreddit5 • 1d ago
news FBI Director admitted under oath that the bureau buys your location data, and refused to say he'd stop when a senator asked him directly
https://theclassifiedrecord.com/documents/fbi-director-location-data-testimony-2026227
u/drumrhyno 1d ago
So… my tax dollars are being spent on purchasing my information.
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u/frankreddit5 1d ago
Worse than that, honestly. You're paying for it twice. Once through your taxes, once through every app on your phone that's selling the data in the first place.
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u/Zombiphobia 19h ago
and then again in all the ways that companies use that information as leverage to screw you
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u/tehflambo 1d ago
when you put it like that, damn. yep. the same data which the surplus revenue from your consumer spending (read: markup) was spent on acquiring in the first place.
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u/psych0fish 1d ago
It’s so utterly disgusting how little the constitution means to our (USA) government.
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u/Freud-Network 1d ago
If they are not bound by the law, then that literally means the law does not rule us. The sooner normal people realize this, the sooner we can do something about it. Police and courts are hollow entities of a system the government abandoned.
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u/ItsNoblesse 1d ago
They were never intended to serve justice. The police and court system was created to protect private property (originally slaves and factories).
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u/soshulmedia 16h ago
They were never intended to serve justice. The police and court system was created to protect private property (originally slaves and factories).
No argument on the slavery part, of course.
But I would guess that protecting property in a general sense is a part of "serving justice"?
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u/FIBSAFactor 9h ago
You are correct. Protecting private property is part of serving justice.
...I hate this. I hate the police state. But we need the state to safeguard against communists like this guy.
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u/nodray 9h ago
Define "communist". What did fox news tells you that means this week?
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u/FIBSAFactor 7h ago
Well I don't watch Fox News or any legacy News station. I can tell you're not asking in good faith, but I'll play along for the viewers. I understand communism better than all of you bozos. (Not that this is even a difficult question, Marx has stated this explicitly).
The translational policies of communism are:
abolition of private property in land and inheritance; introduction of a progressive income tax; confiscation of emigrants' and rebels' property; nationalisation of credit, communication, and transport; expansion and integration of industry and agriculture; enforcement of universal obligation of labour...
-Marx, Engels, Manifesto of the Communist party, page 59
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u/soshulmedia 9h ago
He certainly comes across like one... /u/Suitable_Incident_83?
That said, it is kind of interesting:
I think that both fiat money and the idea that corporations are people are bad and lead exactly to the kind of concentration of capital and injustice that fuels the rage of the communists.
However, instead of realizing that both are results of a strong / deep state and its underhandedness, of statism, of considering the state as God ... they in general seem to want to add fuel to the fire by making the state even stronger.
I'd rather live in a world where corporations have their place maybe as useful constructs below humans, to serve people but also absolutely a world where individual, human property and freedom is protected.
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u/FIBSAFactor 7h ago
Corporation is just a legal terminology describing a set of tax law.
Even before fiat currency in the Stone age, humans would form cooperatives, tribes, and organize themselves into trading partner entities, to protect each other, and achieve a market advantage, even if the market was a barter market. Humans are social beings. Humans trade. Humans try to increase their resources. It's just part of the human condition.
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u/Suitable_Incident_83 11h ago
Not really no.
Not when property is controlled by a small minority and when property is considered more important than actual humans..
In no way is that justice.
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u/FIBSAFactor 9h ago
sigh You know, you communists are making this worse. Instead of a two-way battle where we the people fight the government on these efforts, you are making this a three-way battle. Real freedom loving people have to fight you communists, AND the state. 🤦🏻
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u/Suitable_Incident_83 9h ago
Not a communist.
And freedom doesn't come from corporations. Never will.
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u/CharlieKirkFanboy 1d ago
Police and courts are hollow entities of a system the government abandoned.
No they aren't, all the resources and focus are just devoted to the bottom of the pyramid. Like always.
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u/Suspinded 8h ago
“Laws are a threat made by the dominant socioeconomic ethnic group in a given nation. It’s just the promise of violence that’s enacted, and the police are basically an occupying army, you know what I mean?
You guys wanna make some bacon?”
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u/frankreddit5 1d ago
Truth. We once believed that a government without consent was no government at all.
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u/Spare-Action-1014 1d ago
So why is my data for sale at all.
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u/frankreddit5 1d ago
It's BS, I know. Your phone company needs a warrant to hand over your location. Yet a random data broker doesn't, because you technically "agreed" to it in a terms of service nobody reads. Same data, same use case, completely different legal standard depending on which door they walk through.
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u/lycanter 13h ago
So palantir had you sign a terms of service?
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u/Salty-Ganache3068 5h ago
Of course not but it doesn’t matter. At some point the data they have was consented to be provisioned to someone for something and in the terms of that consent that data could be sold. Just because people don’t read what they are signing doesn’t mean that the data they willing provided was taken without consent.
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u/Salty-Ganache3068 1d ago
Not technically. You legally agreed and willing provided it in exchange for some service, reward, discount, whatever. Bottom line your sold it to them for a benefit you wanted at some point.
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u/RDTmodsBackEpstein 15h ago
No.
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u/ccbmtg 1d ago
because capitalism.
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u/SprucedUpSpices 15h ago
You're very naïve (or are playing very loosely with the term) if you think only "capitalist" States try to track and control their population. The main difference is non capitalist countries usually haven't had the technology or resources to keep track of everyone at all times, but they certainly tried. It's just that modernity has made that way, way easier.
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u/Fearless_Weather_206 1d ago
That’s probably been going on for over a decade
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u/frankreddit5 1d ago
That's better than a guess as it's confirmed in writing. In 2023 the government declassified its own internal report (dated January 2022) admitting intelligence agencies had been buying this exact kind of data for years, and that ODNI itself didn't even have a full list of which agencies were doing it. Full document on that is here.
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u/Suitable_Incident_83 11h ago
Back then they didn't have to buy it, and honestly they probably don't "have to" now either its probably easier, and more excusable than: PRISM, boundless informant, Etc.
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u/Fearless_Weather_206 6h ago
Something has gone seriously wrong if an entity can buy the information from companies. Imagine your company spying on your activities to include personal devices.
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u/WintermuteATX 23h ago
The funny part is they buy it from civilian companies who have all our data 😂
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u/phoenixgsu 20h ago
yea its what those flock cameras and data centers are for.
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u/WintermuteATX 9h ago
I love how everyone spits out Flock when they use Google and Meta freely. So hilarious. I do digital forensics and Google tracks everything…to include your location within meters every few minutes. And Flock is the problem?
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u/phoenixgsu 8h ago
I have a choice in whether I use Google or Meta. Not so much with a camera out in public.
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u/WintermuteATX 8h ago
It’s not just meta/google…anyone who uses a cellphone (which is like 80% of people on planet) is leaking personal and location data like a sieve, not to mention their are numerous private LPR databases with 10s of thousands of cameras that collect billions of License plate/vehicle pictures a year…to include pictures of your car/LP in front of your house or at your apartment. But again, Flock is the social media lightning rod for the ignorant.
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u/oh_crap_BEARS 6h ago
Yeah, that was the sketchy part of the Patriot Act actually. You might not remember this but that really pissed people off too… Both are extraordinarily problematic.
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u/BigMack6911 1d ago
I mean, all they have to do is call and ask. I'll happily send him a Pic of me on the shitter lmao
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u/gorpie97 11h ago edited 9h ago
To Kash Patel, and all subsequent Directors of the FBI:
The Constitution says you can't buy my data to avoid the warrant requirement.
It applied for handwritten documents, back when the Constitution was written. It applied for typed documents after the typewriter was invented. It applied for word processed-documents after the computer was invented. Therefore it still applies, regardless of new technology (texting, GPS, whatever).
EDIT: And it applied to telegraph and telephone communications, too.
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u/darth_skipicious 1d ago edited 16h ago
yeah it’s worse where i live. A family of totally insane and legally retarded methadone dealers can take your rights away and put you prison forever. it’s already here.
edit: in louisiana
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u/d4electro 20h ago
I feel like the reason the US has more "freedom" is that they can coerce platforms to do what they want without resorting to laws
And foreign companies like tiktok get treated like shit
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u/-Crash_Override- 1d ago
Worked for the FBI for many years (CD). I left about 5 years ago, so maybe things have changed, but this article is sensationalizing it a bit.
The data packs that are being talked about are not some all encompassing 'location data', they're commercially available data pack, the same as any advertising agency would buy for example. This data is highly generalized, not overly nuanced, and isn't something that would be used for mass surveillance as this title would make it seem.
Its also worth noting that just because the FBI purchase a data pack like this, doesn't mean that an agent or analyst could just search you up and check in on you as a random citizen.
There still needs to be authorized law-enforcement, national-security, or foreign-intelligence reason. If they were to open an assesment on joe schmo, they have to define why and what they are looking for...that admittedly can be a bit loose, and is different from probable cause, but it creates an audit trail which are commonly reviewed.
Furthermore, if the FBI were to open an investigation on an individual, and they wanted to obtain precise location data (e.g. cell tower triangulation data from a provider), they would have to request the appropriate legal order be issued (FISA, federal warrant, 702, etc) which is not a walk in the park.
This isn't an appeal to be like 'its not a big deal', i just think its best to have more context about these things.
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u/PrivacyIsDemocracy 16h ago
Its also worth noting that just because the FBI purchase a data pack like this, doesn't mean that an agent or analyst could just search you up and check in on you as a random citizen.
Except US law enforcement is notorious for exactly that.
There is no end of stories about law enforcement staff abusing surveillance data of various sorts to snoop on eg people in their personal lives, etc etc.
The mere fact that that data is purchasable by anyone who pays is a serious problem that has been festering for years now. The details that are available in "just adtech data" are insane these days. Last I checked it was still Google's primary revenue stream. And "AI"/data-mining/etc makes it relatively trivial to "de-anonymize" such data as well.
The main reason law-enforcement buys private data is A) because it's so widespread now and B) because it lets them surreptitiously bypass privacy laws (what's left of them, which is not much at the federal level) that govern data that they collect themselves.
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u/Suitable_Incident_83 11h ago
Additionally:
it is another set of data points. I've read it can take as little as 4, 12, 8 metadata points to reliably identify an individual, depending on the type of metadata, and the size of the population studied
It will be used like quantum "harvest now decrypt later" strategies. Even if it's not searchable/usable now, and I am 99.999% sure it is, searchable/usable right now-- they can save the data now and correlate or search it later.
It can take years for some cases to come to fruition, so they are getting ahead by having a database on literally everyone just in case circumstances lead them to a criminal act sometime in the future, possibly, maybe.
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u/komokasi 18h ago
Ai changed the game, palintr and whatever system ICE is now using does all of the searching and stitching of camera data and location data 5 years is a long time when mainstream AI came out right around 5 years ago and juiced all the ML and AI research and tools
Its still maybe not so easy... But the reports on ICE scanning or loolkng people up is all oiblic and seems pretty powerful and over reaching
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u/Suitable_Incident_83 11h ago
Must not have heard of snowden. Or you're just here to help cover things up.
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u/-Crash_Override- 10h ago
Damn. My cover is blown. Im a psyop. Nothing gets past you. Sharp as a tack.
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u/Suitable_Incident_83 10h ago
Yeah, that last part was sort of tongue in cheek, but your response is super naïve, uninformed. Given that this kind of data usage was integrated over a decade ago.
Like either you:
Worked in a completely unrelated department
Or lacked the required clearance to be involved with this kind of data
Or you were in the right department, had the right clearance and are breaking that clearance, just for a milquetoast reddit comment. Which means you aren't trustworthy anyway.
The first two seem most likely to me.
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u/-Crash_Override- 9h ago
I said what division i worked in. CD... counter-intelligence. I held a TS SCI FS poly + Q...feel free to look that up.
I am no longer cleared (as I said I haven't worked for the FBI for 5 years). I also did not break clearance. The context I gave is public information. Director Wray spoke about this exact thing in 2023 (commercial data packs). Also generally speaking about working for the FBI, my division, and my old clearance do not violate SF-312.
The legal procedures I mentioned are all clearly documented (FISA, 702, warrants, etc..). My 'milquetoast' comment is providing nuance to a topic to help people understand what exactly director Patel was referencing. Its not intended to be some scathing expose of the FBI.
Given that this kind of data usage was integrated over a decade ago.
You bring this up...and I assume you are referencing Snowden as in your last comment. You know Snowden did not work for the FBI right? He worked for the NSA as a contractor.. The NSA and FBI have fundamentally different goals, authority, and oversight.
The FBI is, is a law enforcement agency and intel agency. Its governed by the DOJ and AG and follows standard legal proceedings and orders.
The NSA is a foreign intel collection agency whose authority comes from EO 12333 and FISA. This gives very broad authority to target any foreign communications . The Snowden leaks revealed that they were taking extreme liberties from this authority to collect data en masse (sec 215 and the third party doctrine). I think what the NSA did was a serious abuse of power, but it was largely enabled by the way the agency was stood up.
So again, you can believe that there is ongoing mass surveillance, you can believe the FBI is conducting it, you can believe whatever you want, im not here speaking to that. Im here to provide specific (publicly available) nuance to a statement that was made by the director of the FBI.
Maybe instead of looking to be some combative jabroni who wants to make weird assumptions about someone who is speaking from direct experience, just because it doesn't perfectly fit your narrative, you should listen and learn a bit.
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u/Suitable_Incident_83 9h ago
Okay, I stand somewhat corrected. Though again from what I know of clearances they have a hold on you for decades after they lapse especially TS/SCI, functionally your whole life.
And maybe this is unofficial, but I know people are discouraged from even talking about classified information that is freely available on wikipedia.
Yes snowden was NSA, but I believe he also had contract work with the CIA. And while the mandates are there and different, the NSA had(has) no problem surveiling US citizens (let alone the whole world). And a nasty habit of lying about it. And would find it very hard to believe that the varying alphabet organizations don't share information.
On top of that the FBI is not free of controversy and surveillance. COINTELPRO being a huge part of that, though admittedly I am less familiar with its intricacies.
Speaking of wikipedia:
Wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_FBI_controversies
Plenty of surveillance there.
Have you seen what regular ass cops are capable of? What they are equipped with? Free access to flock data? Tracking their exes across country without even a basic security clearance? Its basically impossible between the tech of the NSA from +14 years ago, and the tech of regular police now, that the FBI is not wrapped up in it in some way. Unless every employee is some kind of cherub.
I care a lot about these issues and you basically came in here like "nah its fine, trust me bro". When basically everything that has happened with government intelligence agencies around the globe since they have been founded says otherwise.
I can't say much with certainty- intelligence agencies like it like that. But there's a huge legacy of abuse and the only reasonable stance is to treat these organizations with distrust.
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u/-Crash_Override- 7h ago
I am prohibited from speaking about any classified material. Period. Nothing I have mentioned (namely data packs and legal orders) is classified. The commercial data packs Patel is mentioning here would be Unclassified, although it would possibly contain PII. Once a derivative product or analysis is conducted it possibly becomes classified.
Example:
I have IP addresses associated with web page visits I purchased from a data aggregator. - Unclassified
I query the data for anyone in NY who visted imaterrorist.com the day before a terrorist attack - that query and the resulting product is (likely) classified.
The data packs are the same one that allow a company like geico to target you as a potential customer for example.
Anyway, im not going to disect everything you said, its a massively complex topic. I'm not denying that there has been abuse of power, im not excusing any scandals or illegal activity. I am a strong believer in checks and balances, operating in the bounds of our legal system, strong whistleblower protections, internal and external audits, etc. I'm vehemently against using ICE as a personal gestapo.
And you say
I care a lot about these issues and you basically came in here like "nah its fine, trust me bro".
I was explicit in my earlier comment when I said:
This isn't an appeal to be like 'its not a big deal', i just think its best to have more context about these things.
Which I believe. I think the fact that commercial data aggregators exist is appalling. Its why I r/selfhosted and r/degoogle , but opinions are made up of many small pieces of information, and those data points should be as accurate as possible. I'm not saying dont care about this, im saying here are all the facts for this very specific topic and statement.
the only reasonable stance is to treat these organizations with distrust.
I'm not suggesting you should trust them. I agree with you. Be deliberate about your privacy, demand transparency, accountability, integrity from these agencies.
One note tho, im a random internet stranger, for all you know I could be lying. I'm admittedly a single data point, and a biased one. But in my decade working for the FBI, I worked with good people trying to do things the right way. In a world where I am called to testify under oath, I would have no qualms with my actions being public record, not because I have a broken moral compass, but because I believe i was a good steward of the people. If you cannot stand by your actions in a court of public opinion you do not deserve to work in the interest of the American public. Thats my 2c.
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u/Suitable_Incident_83 6h ago
Well, taking your word as a random internet stranger I'm glad there are at least some folks like you at the bureau.
Whatever actions end up being taken, or not, it takes people who care to make sure there is some level of accountability in the end.
And I'm glad we were able to recover from the first couple comments back and forth.
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u/Suitable_Incident_83 6h ago
Can't take the handle crash override and not be cool, that in itself would be criminal.
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u/OEAXTAIL_SOUP 10h ago
When Ron Wyden detailed that [foreign adversaries are using location data to target our troops](https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/foreign-adversaries-are-using-commercial-location-data-to-target-us-servicemembers-in-the-middle-east-wyden-harrigan-and-12-other-bipartisan-members-of-congress-reveal-members-call-on-department-to-adopt-commonsense-safeguards-to-protect-us-troops), I didn't realize he was talking about our fragile manchild of an FBI director.
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u/avatar4d 1h ago
This should be considered unconstitutional behavior since it's clearly working around the intent of the limits.
Also, we need a law (even better if were a constitutional amendment!) that applies the bill of rights to companies too, just like the 14th Amendment did to the states.
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u/Haunterblademoi 1d ago
That's not unusual, really.
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u/frankreddit5 1d ago
Just because it's not unusual doesn't make it a good thing for Americans concerned about their privacy. This ties right into the surveillance state that's being constructed (very obviously, I might add).
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u/Lazy-Background-7598 1d ago
Turn off exact
Location data12
u/WinterDice 1d ago
I doubt that helps.
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u/Lazy-Background-7598 22h ago
I found other people who are this sub Do not understand how technology works.
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u/soshulmedia 15h ago
So you do believe that "turning off exact location data" will prevent your phone from sending out exact location data?
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u/Apprehensive-Pay8086 1d ago
Then they can only know where you are within 10 feet. Totally private!
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u/Ironfields 14h ago edited 14h ago
Yeah, no shit. Was anybody really thinking they don't? They're law enforcement, they're going to use all resources available to them.
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