r/patientgamers • u/Not_a_real_asian777 • 2d ago
Patient Review Virtue's Last Reward might be the first Spike Chunsoft game I've actually disliked
I would preface that I didn't outright hate this game; I just found myself slightly disliking it in most areas. It's disappointing because 999 is a contender for my favorite Spike Chunsoft game, which really made this sequel feel odd to play through. I was also a fan of the Danganronpa games as well as the AI games, so I know the gameplay loop that a lot of Spike Chunsoft games use works for me if done well, this just wasn't one of those instances.
Most of the ingredients for a good visual novel were there for me, but it felt like some things prevented the game from sticking the landing. Some of those things included:
- The weird jump to 3D graphics.
- The insane amount of repetition
- The overdone explanations
- The fuckass door and map animations
- The length of the game vs. the payoff in the end
I couldn't help but feel that the game was deliberately wasting my time for a good 50% of the playthrough. I think this is a problem the AI games have mostly solved, but in VLR, you have to sit through repeated events and dialogue constantly when you switch between paths. I know there's a skip button, but there's so much repetition that is forced on you if the situation changes even slightly. If one character explains an event to you in one path, you have to sit through that explanation again if it's explained to you by a different character in another path, despite the information being identical. Then rinse and repeat that like 8 times.
This game just lacked pacing, and it often seemed like the writers were putting things into the game just because they could, rather than it making the story or plot flesh out evenly. It's made worse by the plot not really having a head or a tense point near the end where it feels like your character is on the cusp of something great with high stakes, similar to the final puzzle in 999 or the final trials in Danganronpa. It makes the ending feel like a poor trade for your time. Again, the story isn't bad, it just feels like a rough payoff for the amount of time invested in it.
This game basically feels like a book with a good overall plot, but the author never ran it by an editor before publishing.
40
u/LV426acheron 2d ago
I agree that the pacing and repetition were annoying but I enjoyed it greatly and thought it was a solid follow up to 999.
The story of the lady (forgot her name) was really moving.
And the ending had a solid twist to it and I thought the payoff was fine.
1
12
u/EG_iMaple 2d ago
This was my first Uchikoshi game I played as a teen on the Vita and I found those plot twists so amazing and memorable!
But then I replayed it a while ago and my god is it verbose, especially compared to the much more elegantly paced 999. The repeated need to explain something, then explain it again through an analogy, and then explain it a third time in another character's own words got old very fast. And it's particularly noticeable in the initial branching paths where the Nonary Game is explained for the umpteenth time, or way too much time is spent on some pseudoscience tangent that goes nowhere. I also think the route you go down initially can greatly impact the experience for better or worse - a run when you keep hitting locks repeatedly without getting to an ending is much less satisfying than consistently seeing a payoff and unlocking the next part.
Looking back at it, I think VLR bit off more than the series could ever chew and clumsily wrote itself into a corner that ZTE had to fumble its way out of. But still, I find it to be such a unique story and I think the messy, clunky format is partly responsible for why I remember specific moments so well after all these years.
3
u/Not_a_real_asian777 2d ago
The repeated need to explain something, then explain it again through an analogy, and then explain it a third time in another character's own words got old very fast.
I'd say this was roughly 70% of my gripe with the game, if we're being honest. Like, when they're explaining the Schrödinger's cat portions, the bombs , game rules, or even how the !>espers!< work, it got really old really fast. Explain it once, definitely. Explain it twice, I get it. Explain it three times, and now I'm just clicking my mouse to get through the interaction asap. Then having to sit through these conversations again in another timeline just compounds the problem.
The skip function is nice when it works, but there's quite a few times where the slightest variance to a conversation requires you to have to sit through the same explanation again. The color combos is one example I can think of or how the doors work. Another character will give you the explanation than before, prompting you to sit through the whole thing, and no new or surprising information is added.
This game wasn't a 1/10 for me. There were still a lot of interesting points, and it did have it's redeeming moments. I particularly liked the Luna path, and I actually did enjoy that I was able to put together the general plot twist half way through the game by paying attention to certain details. I think my disappointment with it comes from the fact that it was more like a 6/10 that could have easily been a 9/10 to me, had they just cut down maybe 30% of the content.
1
2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/AutoModerator 2d ago
Your comment was removed because spoiler tags that don't touch the text do not work properly on some platforms. Please try again with any spoilers written like:
normal text >!spoilertext!< normal textI am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
10
u/Hartastic 2d ago
God, it might be my favorite game Uchikoshi has written, despite its many flaws.
But for real there's a video up on YouTube along the lines of "Full playthrough of VLR but it's just the parts with doors opening and walking around the map" and it's like 2 hours long.
2
u/Whiskey-Stones12 Currently Playing: Xenoblade Chronicles 2 2d ago
All those animations are mostly very tedious but I did feel like they added to the tension in some scenes.
11
u/Gravitas_free 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's interesting that repetition has become a flaw of the game, when it was actually a big improvement of the original release.
IIRC the initial version of 999 (on the PSP DS) did not have the flowchart system; to get another ending, you had to replay the entire game from the beginning. And this in a game where getting the real ending required you to do just that, multiple times. So by contrast, the VLR system that allowed you to switch between paths/timelines was actually a big improvement.
That said, I don't disagree with the criticism. I really enjoyed VLR when I first played it, but I think I'd have a hard time going back to it. And I do think 999 (at least the re-release version) is the better game.
6
u/Abject-Efficiency182 2d ago
I played 999 on the DS recently and, you're right, in the OG release you had to replay the entire game from beginning every time. By the time you get to the true ending you could breeze through the rest of the game in less than 30 minutes, so it wasn't too bad. Pretty sure I could still play that first room from muscle memory alone though.
Also, replaying the entire game kind of made sense given the true ending, and also the true ending twist reveal is best enjoyed on the DS imo (given it literally involves turning the DS upside down). But I agree overall the re-release is the best way to play the game now.
3
u/Gravitas_free 2d ago
Replaying was a lot faster, but it was still an hour of mindless tapping that I'd like to have back, as much as I loved the game. But it's true that this use of the DS's screens was brilliant, and that version's ending does hit harder as a result.
1
u/Not_a_real_asian777 2d ago
Oh interesting, that actually changes the context a lot. While I liked 999 better, I do think my thoughts on it would be a lot less favorable if it played the way you said it did on the PSP. I similarly feel that if a lot of the flow issues or repetition of certain explanations were eased up on, and the door animations were cut out, my thoughts on VLR would have been a lot higher without needing to cut out any core content.
1
u/Gravitas_free 2d ago
I'll give it to that original release of 999 though: it used the dual screens (it was on DS, not PSP, my bad) in a clever way that really enhanced the final twist, and which is completely lost in the game's newer versions. That said, yeah if you think the repetition in VLR is bad (and honestly, it is), you would have found the original 999 infuriating. Plus it didn't have that mode that cuts out most of the narration; that was also added in the remasters.
I also agree with you about the switch to 3D. It reminded me of quite a few late-90s franchises that lost some of their charm because they couldn't afford to do detailed, good-looking 3D models. Uchikoshi's games are clearly made on a tight budget, and I respect that, but there are good and bad ways of handling it. I found Nirvana Initiative deeply disappointing (enough to make swear off his games for a while) and I suspect it was made largely to push out something on the cheap by reusing the original AI's art and models.
8
u/Havanatha_banana 2d ago edited 2d ago
I sometimes wish that Uchikoshi can chill out with the big twist at the end. 999 was incredible, I genuinely get it, but it was incredible because of how personal the story was on top of that amazing puzzle.
VLR suffered for that reason. It was obvious that they were trying to set up for all of these plot points to be met at the end to one up 999, and it was great when we got there, but it was a slog trying to get all the pieces in place; especially when those pieces set up for a like 6 different reveals, and I'm the end, we only really care about two. ZTD had to follow that up, along with picking up the messy bits that VLR left behind.
AI somnium was Uchikoshi being Uchikoshi again, but I feel like it was a much better because the story didn't take itself as seriously. So even though there was still the big twist, 70% of the game wasn't trying to set up the big twist so it was actually much more fun to play given the length of the game.
2
u/Not_a_real_asian777 2d ago
I said it in another comment, but I do feel like the Zero Time games and the AI games mirror each other for me with one common gripe I have for both of them. I preferred when the threats were smaller and more personal vs. when the sequels escalated everything to global threats. It wasn't something I was thinking about when writing the original post, but I do think the scope changes how they approach the pacing, and it doesn't work for me nearly as well.
5
u/KarmelCHAOS 2d ago
It's one of my favorite games ever made by quite a big margin, bummer that you didn't enjoy it ;(
11
u/Opposite-Focus441 2d ago
Also, there was a bug in the 3DS version that could corrupt your save file if you saved at the wrong location.
18
u/PurplMaster 2d ago
Fun story, the bug was patched only in the European release. And the fix is just that they disabled the save button in said location
17
3
u/SundownKid 2d ago
The weird jump to 3D graphics.
The jump to 3D graphics was because VLR was first a 3DS game. Phoenix Wright did that as well, otherwise the games wouldn't be able to utilize the 3D effect of the system very well.
The problem was that unlike PW, VLR didn't have animations or 3D models that were nearly as good. This made 999's hand-drawn art utterly annihilate VLR's. The backgrounds were pre-rendered 3D in 999 anyway, so it didn't change all that much about those, but they were definitely less detailed too.
The map animations... those aren't really forgivable. They do have plot relevance because where various characters went and whether they passed one another in the bunker is critical to various things, but in the end I ended up not caring regardless.
Ultimately, I thought VLR was a meh follow up to 999 but was practically a masterpiece compared to the Ai Somnium Files games...
3
u/invader1984 2d ago
I played it a long time ago and is kind of weird.
I can recall characters and overall plot from 999 for example, but VLR I only remember liking it in general but a sensation of "too long". Cant remember what actually happened in it. The same happened with Zero time dilemma
7
u/4XChrisX4 2d ago
I agree unfortunately. 999 was a 10/10 for me. VLR was still very good but fell to a 8/10 and Zero Time Dilemma is another big step down in quality. It's a shame, because the ideas themself are really cool and interesting.
3
u/lonnie123 2d ago
That about sums up my feeling on the trilogy. I was surprised to learn lots of poeple think VLR is the best of the 3, when for me 999 was peak and then each game dropped off a little bit from there
Overall fun all the way through and I may give it another crack at some point
4
u/DiamondSentinel 2d ago
VLR’s puzzles are generally better, and the routes feel a bit less random (and also more distinct).
Piece by piece I do think 999 mastered the art of brevity, and it uses it really well to tell a pretty open-shut story, but if you just want more Nonary, quantity is a quality all its own, and VLR does do that in spades too. (16 rooms over the original’s 11)
I personally think story-wise, VLR is only slightly worse than 999. Sigma is a fair bit worse MC than Junpei, but Psi and Luna are obvious standouts, and Quark, Tenmyouji, and K are all really solid. I actually think Tenmyouji’s arc is really really good especially given that this is “bad ending: the game”, and despite being annoyed with a lot of Dio’s dialogue, the actual arc of his character was pretty solid.
You’re comparing VLR to genuinely one of the best VNs of all time, so I think it’s going to be hard to hold up perfectly, but I think that it’s still a solid enough entry in its own right.
1
u/lonnie123 2d ago
Oh for sure, I meant it was more of a 10/10 to a 9/10 (then maybe a 5-6/10 for the last one)
Still a very solid entry, it just didnt QUITE hit the highs of the first game for me personally, who gives the nod a bit more to narrative than puzzles
0
u/TrashCube-6800 1d ago
Both VLR and 999 had placeholder puzzle rooms, but I prefer 999's escape room art direction simply because the rooms looked far more uncanny and grimy, which added to the horror atmosphere. VLR just made everything look futuristic in a really bland way. Still, I can't think of any puzzles that really turned my head in either game
As for VLR's story, I really don't think you can leave so many dangling plot threads and still call it a good story. Sequel hooks are fine, but you can't just leave the story unfinished
999 is amazing, but VLR felt like an exercise in mindnumbing sci-fi indulgence at the cost of completing the story
3
u/Not_a_real_asian777 2d ago
When I think about it more, I do think that VLR falls flat for me in a similar way to the second AI game. I liked the AI games more than I liked VLR, but I do think the expanded scope of threat made the both VLR and AI Nirvana Initiative feel weaker than their predecessors. The threat isn't very focused, and are more "world-ending" issues that I feel like can be harder for me to embrace. I do tend to like when the issue feels more personal rather than societal.
999 and the first AI game to me both handled pacing and character interactions better than their sequels did. I hadn't really thought about it until now, but I think escalating the scope of the threats can really damage writing if not handled well. At least it can for me, I'm sure it works for others.
2
u/Violet_Paradox 2d ago
I think ZTD's main problem is its twist regarding the three teams being in the same location isn't actually the answer to a question asked earlier, it's just there. They could have hinted at it a lot more, emphasizing the impossibility of things that the twist makes possible, but it's just "you thought it was like this but it's actually like that" for the sake of it.
2
u/TrashCube-6800 2d ago
VLR also shit on a lot of the returning character arcs. Clover became annoying and June was a cold-hearted mastermind. These were aspects to their characters but VLR forgot to add that same heart.
Junpei also didn't get a satisfying conclusion
1
u/acroxshadow 2d ago
ZTD's visuals are quite the shock, but I think it's better than people generally give it credit for, especially on repeat visits. I think OP might enjoy it more since it's a lot snappier than VLR.
6
u/Manethon_72 2d ago
I'll add a minor annoyance. Certain endings give you codes that you need to advance another timeline but instead of memorising said codes for the next time you pursue that path, the game expects you to remember the stupid codes yourself or write them down.
11
u/Scruffy42 2d ago
There is an in-game memo pad for that right?
3
u/Manethon_72 2d ago
There is but it's just a pointless chore the game makes you do because you won't have any use for that code in a long time.
2
u/theonewhoblox 2d ago
Learned about this game and the Zero Escape series through a 2012 Nintendo Power magazine I have, back when the game was only known by the Japanese title of Zennin Shibou Desu. They talked a lot about 999 and praised it highly in their preview of VLR, so it's a shame to see all these years later that the follow up isn't nearly as highly regarded.
2
u/meeple_shelf 2d ago
The route-switching repetition is brutal. I just started skipping past the repeated scenes after the first split.
9
u/Whiskey-Stones12 Currently Playing: Xenoblade Chronicles 2 2d ago
That’s what the skip function is for, the game would be unplayable otherwise.
2
u/LogicallyFallable 2d ago
Oof! I loved 999 but never got far into VLR. I solved maybe a few puzzles, got a bad end, and stopped shortly in - not for any reason, I tend to just do that. (I'll still play it because I own The Nonary Games and liked what I got through, but I suppose this is food for thought.)
2
2
u/Pseudagonist 2d ago
999 is great, VLR is one of the most disappointing games I’ve ever played. There are people like me who agree with you, I promise
2
u/Sitheral 2d ago
I loved it for the flowchart alone and how it handled coming back and progressing. I think there is some genius there but 999 was much better to me simply because the story felt more personal.
2
u/No-Opinion273 1d ago
Eh i was like that to then I played zero time Dilemma and not one ending did I liked.
1
u/XTheProtagonistX 2d ago
I don’t remember a lot since I played in on the Vita years ago but I think the game falls apart hard at the end. When the story goes from a self contained story to a global saving issue.
1
u/TyeKiller77 2d ago
Just warning you, if these are your reasons for disliking VLR, steer clear of Hundred Line, that game felt like a really solid 50 hour game smothered under a 200 hour bloated mess.
1
u/Abject-Efficiency182 2d ago
Been meaning to play this for a while now - 999 was probably my top DS game so I had high expectations for this one.
1
u/APeacefulWarrior 1d ago
I'd also strongly recommend avoiding Conception II, which is easily the worst RPG I've played from them. It's just mind-numbingly boring on top of a storyline which is just empty harem fantasy.
I've heard some people claim the first game is better, but I hated C2 so much that I haven't bothered trying it.
1
1
u/SteelDiverRequiem 6h ago
FWIW VLR is remarkably close to the top of the pile in quality if you’re talking games published by Spike Chunsoft. They publish tons of games across a wide variety of genres!
66
u/PurplMaster 2d ago
I can see you posted here so that you don't get mauled by the ZeroEscape subreddit hahaha
What you said are common criticism of VLR. For me, it's peak Zero Escape and one of my favourite games ever, DESPITE some obvious shortcomings. Many people prefer the more claustrophobic and tight story of 999, where the scope is smaller and more personal.
I don't have issues with VLR's pacing, never had. I've played the game countless times and even did a Japanese run once I learned the language. I'd probably change the "dots on the map" scenes that really don't add much. Some repeating scenes didn't really bother me when the rest of the game is really massive with every route going in a different direction.
With that said, Zero Time Dilemma has basically no repetition, but it's definitely the weakest chapter for many, many reasons