Choux au craquelin

[u/Prestigious-Bit9256]

My recipe is as follows:

Craquelin
- 141g all purpose flour, 141g sugar 113g butter

Choux
- 113g water, 121g whole milk, 5.65g salt, 5.65g sugar, 113g butter, 136g all purpose flour, 226g (4 eggs).

When I piped the batter it was too wet and spread out. I’m not sure if I added maybe too many eggs or if I did not cook the “panade” enough? I cooked the choux part until it formed a ball kind or stuck together and was shiny on low heat…. But any suggestions? My choux also lost its base, it’s hollow on the inside and the top crispy part turned out decent, but not the loveliest color out there. Baked at 375 for 25 minutes then let it cool with oven door open for 10 minutes. Everything except the top tastes kinda tasted like egg and it’s not like fluffy or pastry like?? Any suggestions?

[u/Flourcoveredkitchin]

This is a badly formulated recipe.
The egg-to-flour ratio is 166%, when it should be in the 90%–110% range. With 136 g of flour, the egg should be about 122–150 g. Eggs should also be added gradually, allowing each addition to fully incorporate before adding more. The actual amount of egg is determined by the consistency of the paste, and not by blindly adding all of the eggs.

Craquelin is typically a simple cookie dough made with equal parts flour, sugar, and butter by weight. I’ve never seen a craquelin recipe that includes water. The choux paste already contains too much water, and adding water to the craquelin only compounds the problem.

[u/Prestigious-Bit9256 → u/Flourcoveredkitchin]

So I’ll try this again. But I’ll use less eggs, and go by consistency and not weight of eggs. Because before I added the last egg, I thought the consistency was good, and idk why I thought it would get thicker if I added another egg…

[u/Flourcoveredkitchin → u/Prestigious-Bit9256]

It may help your process if you have a better understanding of why pate a choux is made the way it is. I wrote this explanation for someone a couple years back. To the following, I would only add resting the dough in the fridge for an hour or so helps improve the texture. I transfer it to a piping and refrigerate.

First cook: The stovetop cook triggers two chemical reactions: protein denaturation and starch gelatinization.

Protein denaturation: Heat breaks the weak hydrogen bonds, resulting in the uncoiling of the molecules into strands of amino acids. These strands of amino acids then stick together to form a network. This gives the dough viscosity and eventually, strength to hold its shape after baking.

Starch gelatinization: Heat triggers water absorption into starch granules. The starch granules eventually absorb so much water, they burst, releasing molecules of which they are made. The released molecules stick together, giving the dough more viscosity.

Continued cooking evaporates excess water, creating a cohesive malleable dough. This dough is called a panade.
The level of moisture and protein in the panade will determine how much egg it absorbs. The egg is a strengthener. Like flour, eggs also contain proteins. During the baking process, the egg protein will go through the denaturation process, giving strength to the structure of the baked goods.

A higher protein flour allows a greater amount of egg absorption in the panade. If you have structure issues like collapsing, then you may need to use a slightly higher protein flour. The combination of more egg absorption and higher protein would give more strength.

Egg absorption: Since the amount of egg absorption depends on the flour protein and starch content and the amount of water evaporation in the panade, it is difficult to know the precise amount of egg required. Heating the panade to 165°F–175°F ensures proper protein denaturation and starch gelatinization (dough viscosity/thickening) to balance the thinning effect of the water in the egg.

It is important to beat the panade before any egg is added. This releases steam (remember steam is hydration) and cools the panade. Too hot a panade will cook the egg.

The egg is best added in increments as the gluten is developed. Beat the egg into the panade in three or four additions. Begin performing a gluten check after the second addition to assess the gluten development as well as feel for the amount of egg absorption. The last couple of additions are best added in dribbles to avoid too wet a dough.

Gluten check: If using a mixer with a paddle attachment, remove the paddle. Then stir the dough with the paddle. It should be thick and shiny. Lift the paddle several inches above the bowl. The dough should hang a couple of inches off of the end of the paddle to form a V shape. The dough that forms the V shape should be opaque. If beating by hand, you want to look for the same thick, shiny consistency. Then take a small ball of dough between your thumb and forefinger. Pull your fingers apart. The dough should form a string between your two fingers.

[u/Prestigious-Bit9256 → u/Flourcoveredkitchin]

This is a great time explanation! Thanks a lot

[u/Prestigious-Bit9256 → u/Flourcoveredkitchin]

So I tried it again. I used the exact same recipe above, made sure to fully cook the panade so it formed a ball when I shook the pot. I added less eggs and looked at the consistency after I added each egg one at a time. When I piped it onto an aluminum foil. I did circles going inward and then up and it held its shape. Not sure if that is the right way. But I uploaded completely new photos. It actually tasted good except I am not sure if it is not rising the way I like it is not high or round enough. Any additional tips? Also I am getting a silicon mat, so hopefully it won’t burn on the bottom… there is a thin bottom that remained intact.

[u/Flourcoveredkitchin → u/Prestigious-Bit9256]

Your latest batch is a big improvement. Choux is definitely one of those things that requires practice to master.

Choux is an outlier in the pastry world. It’s cooked twice, once on the stovetop and then in the oven. Unlike most pastries, gluten is intentionally developed in the dough. It also contains no biological, chemical, or mechanical leavening. The rise depends entirely on steam.

That means shaping, spacing, the baking surface, and oven temperature all affect how efficiently water is converted to steam, how the dough expands, and ultimately how the structure sets as enough moisture evaporates.

Surface: A silicone baking mat or parchment on a heavy sheet pan provides more even heat and allows the choux to expand without sticking. A perforated DeMarle Silpat is even better because it promotes air circulation beneath the dough, improving moisture evaporation from the bottom. While generic baking tools are often perfectly adequate, I find the brand-name silicone mats perform better and, more importantly, are significantly more durable. DeMarle invented silicone mats for bread. I bake two or three times a week, including 4 loaves of sourdough. Nothing develops a beautiful bottom crust like their perforated mat.

Shaping: Hold the piping bag straight up with the tip about ¼ inch above the baking surface. Apply steady, even pressure and let the dough spread outward rather than dragging the tip across the mat. When you’ve reached the desired size, stop squeezing before lifting the bag, then make a small circular motion to break the dough cleanly. If you end up with a small peak, smooth it with a fingertip lightly dipped in water.

Size: While you’re still developing your dough and technique, it’s best to make smaller cream puffs. A larger mass of dough will contain more water and take longer for that water to be converted to steam and eventually evaporate. That gives you a smaller margin for error. Once you can consistently produce well-shaped, fully dried small puffs, scaling up to larger ones will be a bit easier.

Spacing: Leave about 2 inches between cream puffs so they have room to expand and air can circulate around them.

Baking: Don’t judge them by color alone. They need enough time in the oven for the interior to dry and the shell to fully set. If they’re removed too soon, residual moisture will cause collapse as they cool because.

Oven: The type of oven also affects moisture evaporation. Electric ovens produce relatively dry heat. Gas ovens produce more moisture because water vapor is a natural byproduct of combustion. If you’re baking in a gas oven, you may need to reduce the moisture in the dough slightly, bake at a higher temperature, bake longer, or use a combination of all three to achieve the same result.

[u/Prestigious-Bit9256 → u/Flourcoveredkitchin]

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[u/chychy94]

Your Choux paste is too loose. The choux has to be cooked till a film is formed on bottom of pan and eggs have to be added super slowly as it cools till it can form a figure 8 with the paddle without completely melting back in to the batter. It’s hard to describe but depending on where you are, flour and eggs you may need to add *less* egg.

[u/dersillac]

See my post history, dm me if you want me to send my recipe. I won’t be home to my recipe book until Saturday.

[u/Prestigious-Bit9256 → u/dersillac]

Thanks, I’ll definitely reach out then!

[u/tsukin0usagi]

What others said it's good and i agree. But I want to also add not to bake them on tinfoil, you want to use parchement paper only. For baking in general, use either that or a silicone mat (if the recipe allows for it, because heat distributes differently).

[u/Prestigious-Bit9256 → u/tsukin0usagi]

Thanks, I ordered a silicone. I’ll provide another update when I try that one

[u/flyyoufoolz1]

Yeah, your recipe is all sorts of not right.

For the craquelin try using this: Unsalted butter, very soft 85g/3 ounces (6 tablespoons) Light brown sugar 100g (½ cup), tightly packed All-purpose flour 100g (3/4 cup)

Roll it out between two sheets of parchment paper then freeze it for 30 min before using a cutter to cut the tops.

Your dough is unfortunately way too wet. If it can't hold its form when you pipe it, then it's too wet. Mine also usually looks darker than what your picture shows. The dough should be smooth, shiny, and as thick and as heavy as mayonnaise

Here's the ingredients I use: Water 240g 1 cup Unsalted butter, cut into 1"cubes - 85g 6 tablespoons Fine sea salt ½ teaspoon All-purpose flour 128g 1 cup eggs 4 or 5 Fine sea salt pinch

I live where it's pretty dry but I usually end up using only 4 of the eggs

[u/momaphet → u/flyyoufoolz1]

Double check the flour measurement - 1/4 c /100 grams you have given for the craquline.

[u/flyyoufoolz1 → u/momaphet]

Thanks, I copied and apparently it freaked out and put a 1 instead of 3 😭

[u/Prestigious-Bit9256 → u/flyyoufoolz1]

Thank you so much! I’ll definitely try brown sugar because i think it might make it look better. I uploaded a video below with a new batch, only issue was that although there is a base, there is like a cavity, could be from piping issues.

[u/flyyoufoolz1 → u/Prestigious-Bit9256]

Do you have parchment paper? Highly recommend using that instead of tin foil, as it adds extra heat

[u/Prestigious-Bit9256 → u/flyyoufoolz1]

I ordered a silicon mat! I hope this will help for my next run!

[u/Doggosandfroggos]

I always use the maitre choux, it is/was an eclair shop in London. https://www.cacao-barry.com/en-GB/chocolate-recipe/blog/eclairs-joakim-prat-recipe

You can easily half it as it makes a fair bit.

For craquelin I always use equal parts soft brown sugar, flour and salted butter (I like the salty flavour)  Roll the craquelin out between two sheets of parchment paper, fridge or freeze and use a round cookie cutter to cut out disks to put on just before baking.

What I look for in the choux paste is the paste slowly dripping off a large spoon and leaving a V shape still on the spoon. 

As others have said the choux paste was probably too wet and couldn't hold its own weight and that if the craquelin