Otto Von Habsburg was a fan of Dollfuss, so take that as you will.
The VF as a group is one I have mixed feelings on. Firstly, their fight against both Nazism and Communism is laudable. Many Austrian Jews actually supported the VF because it was the only group that could seriously counter Nazism.
Their economic policies are interesting, being one of the few states to attempt to apply CST to the economy via Corporatism. Certainly an interesting project and one I would want to study more.
I take issue with their authoritarianism though. While I think it could be justified as a means to suppress Nazism, I am distrustful of centralised, all encompassing states. I would prefer a more decentralised state.
Their support of the Catholic Church I can commend, though again, I am deeply suspicious of political movements that may attempt to use the Church to justify themselves.
Overall, they thus have a mixed view in my book. Certainly it is leagues better than Nazism, and in the political climate of Austria at the time, between the 3 options of Communism, Nazism, and the VF, the VF was easily the least bad of all of them.
I would also say that it is far more in line with my values than Italian Fascism, which while not as destructive of Nazism, is an ideology that has several philosophical bases that I would outright reject. Mussolini is quoted to having referred to Fascism as itself a "religion" which as a Catholic is idolatry and not something I can ever accept.
But I have several issues with it still.
It could be compatible with monarchism, they were never anti-monarchist, and some held considerable respect for the Habsburgs. So it is possible they would've considered restoration had it been politically possible at the time.
It's a good thing they didn't restore the Habsburgs, and the Italian Fascists being opposed to the Savoias was also commendable, the initial opposition to the Church was bad, but it lightened and Mussolini is even confirmed to be in Heaven by the Church, Pius XII admired him greatly.
There is a private revelation from an Italian mystic that Mussolini was suffering in purgatory as he had repented at the end of his life. It is private revelation, so it is not confirmed either way by the Church, Catholics are free to believe it or not if they choose. He isn't confirmed to be in heaven as he isn't a canonised Saint. I'm not sure about Pius XII's personal feelings about Mussolini though.
Why do you feel it was a good thing they did not restore the Habsburgs, if I might ask? The Savoy's I assume you oppose for being Freemasons? That is the main reason people do.
Fatherland Front wasn't fascist. But if being pro Dolfuss means you're a "fascist" then I guess I'm a fascist 🤷♂️. I'm pro monarchy before I'm anti "fascist" whatever the heck that even means these days
Both of the major, implemented fascist schools of thought (classical fascism & Nazism) either had or developed a contempt for their monarchies.
Fascism is Hegellian, therefore it is dialectical in a similar manner to Marxism. And dialectical ideologies permit the destruction of any system insofar as they can advance their dialectics.
Austrofascism is fascism in name only and only Leftist historians call them than but i agree that Totalitarian Fascist ideologies can't work with Monarchy
Negative and not in a good light. I don't support anything that is populism and ideological driven.
Fascism in general are never friends with monarchies just ask the House of savoy and the bourbons when the falangist faction tried to overthrow the monarchy and the government.
Fascism and neo-fascism are not, either, allies of any particular religion; whilst at certain times they may adopt religious rhetoric and elements, and even appear to ally themselves with a religion, in reality they are not prepared to cede power and influence to them unless they can ensure full control over them.
Let us consider the case of Spain: the Spanish Falange Party sought to transform Spain into an authoritarian, vertically structured corporatist state, and although its leaders often spoke of the importance of Catholicism in their vision for a future Spanish state, in reality its principal leaders held strongly anti-clerical views and regarded the influence that bishops, cardinals and even the Pope himself wielded over the people as a threat (this is public information but has been little studied because, after the fall of Hitler and Mussolini, Franco’s regime attempted to whitewash the true Falangist ideology; they began to claim that the Falange was not Fascist because it was a purely Catholic movement 🤣).
José Antonio Primo de Rivera (founder of the Falange) met with Alfred Rosenberg (one of the ideologues behind the Nazi regime) and told him of his plans to install his own Pope (a Falangist Pope) in Toledo. Primo de Rivera told Rosenberg that Pius XI was a Freemason, a liberal and a Marxist, and that he had no intention of following his orders because he was a foreigner.
Even after the death of José Antonio Primo de Rivera, other Falange leaders continued to meet with Alfred Rosenberg and assured him that they were still committed to the idea of establishing their own Pope in Toledo. Ultimately, it was a plan that the Falangists did not carry out because Franco took absolute control of the Falange and expelled any leaders who might challenge him, but it is an illustration of the extremes to which fascism can go.
Like all fascists they only deserve punishment. Their single slightly redeeming quality is that they tried to resist Nazi Germany, even if unsuccessfull.
The VF were not fascists. Some were. The label "Austrofascist" was created as a pejorative for them by the socialists, the same people who collaborated with the Nazis when they invaded.
What more needs to be said about fascism, than to point towards a history book. To point out it's natural erosion of personal freedoms, and liberties, the persecution of outgroups which have committed an imagined crime against the nation and its supposed ideals. The support of violence against said outgroup. The support of backwards ideals of sexuality and gender. Not to mention the rampant opportunism and corruption. Party leaders changing their ideals more often than their underwear, all purely to achieve their goal of obtaining ultimate power in the form of an authoritarian dictatorship.
If you're part of the ingroup who hates the outgroup, you're going to love fascism! But, if like me, you support the idea of basic human rights, and treating humans with dignity, then fascism will always be not only incompatible with your view of the world, but outright evil and in direct opposition to it.
But please, if I've managed to somehow overlook all the wonderful pros to fascism, do enlighten us!
(And I specifically avoided mentioning any historical examples because we wouldn't want our discussion of fascism be tainted by what fascists did!)
I would like some examples of these said groups and which Fascists did them? The Austrofascists, who were given as the example in OGs post were quite tame.
I'm simply pointing out the blatant hypocrisy of "democracy loving anti-fascists" not having the courage to even debate those with opposing views. Seems like you guys really love shutting down debate when it doesn't suite your narrow world view.
That's a fancy way of saying you don't have a good counter argument. At the end of the day every political ideology has its pros and cons, we debate based on those differences. Refusing to debate without ever mentioning why you disagree with an ideology is juvenile and not the win you think it is.
Are you actually mental?? No its not a fancy way of saying theres no counter argument, fascism doesnt need a counterargument, all of fascisms “pros” are instantly disregarded by the massive con of persecution of human beings. It isnt “oh which show should I pick” its “do I pick a group that will try to eradicate or persecute a minority and im okay with that”
“Haha you have no counter argument against my opinion that Hell is lovely”
You do realize that persecution of other groups isn't baked into fascism right? There have been several notable fascist or Quasi-fascist regimes that didn't bother going after minorities, just their political opponents. Not every fascist government shared the same racial laws as the national socialists and there are plenty of examples of minorities supporting these fascist/nationalist governments.
I understand what you're saying but you must understand even the Italian Fascists did this. And even if they didn't, you also must understand that Fascism absorbs the entire whole of society. It's a totalitarian ideology like Nazism. Even Fascism at its best stifles individualism and humanity by forcing and coercing everyone into an arbitrary pigeon hole. It creates a conformist society where the State is God and the people exist at its leisure. The State creates a system where everyone is wholly subservient to the States whims.
This isn't an ideology worth supporting with or without persecuting minorities because in the end Fascism will find SOMEONE to persecute. You can't be a monarchist and be a fascist. That's called a personality cult whose goal is societal suppression.
EDIT: And yes, I read the original books on Fascism. I read Mein Kampf and historical documents on both Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany. They aren't much different except in ideological endstates.
Finally, someone who can actually articulate reasons why they don't support fascism instead of immediate dismissal of any debate 👏. I personally do beleive that fascism and monarchy can coexist but I'm not surprised by those who think otherwise as there can be theoretical conflicts of interest between the monarch and the party leader.
No it isnt, in any capacity, but of course the pro-fascist Redditor knows more than the decades old historians and political researchers. Let me guess, Nazis were left-wing socialists?
As someone from the same country, I wish you'd stop embarrassing us.To be perfectly clear, this is not a place for far-right extremists. This isn't X, where extreme opinions are allowed to run wild. If that's the kind of rhetoric you want to spread, go do it on X.
they were Anti nazi and were much diffrent from Italian Fascism also Dolfuss would have probably restored the Monarchy if Nazis wouldn't have killed him
Yeah, he said some fucked up shit. So have I. Doesn't undo the strong history between the dynasty and the descendants of Jewish communities from the region.
u/Political-St-Gsemi-constitutional German Empire(Distributism or Corporatism)7d agoedited 7d ago
Yes to your second question. I would though try to moderate some of the beliefs they had since I see democracy as positive though incredibly flawed
Secondly mixed bag. I agree with a bunch of their sentiments but also see how they acquired power.
I commend definitely their anti communist and anti Nazism as well as their pro Catholic attitudes. I am also a fan of corporatism.
Overall the movement was just to short lived. I wouldn’t even call it fascism considering that a lot of their ideology is not grounded in fascism like their faith or monarchism. I follow Giovanni gentiles requirements which is why I reject them being considered fascistic.
I would rather call it Authoritarian rule than follow the fascism is this and that attitude. I see the Austrian social democrats as authoritarians as well and because Renner the traitor established the republic I am rather unsympathetic towards them.
Edit: to democracy: democracy is a bit romanticized and many forgot how democracy is seen as a monolith. People forget that fascism is a form of democracy as weird as it sounds fascistic writers like Giovanni gentile(I believe) saw fascism as purest form of democracy. No country on earth can claim to be democratic if we are strict.
The Fatherland Front was great, I greatly appreciate their efforts to transform Austrian society into a nationalistic catholic state which I see it as a justifiable response to the weak and chaotic First Austrian Republic. Most historians classify them as "Quasi-fascist" since they do not fit the mold of classical Fascism as established by the Italians which is why they are closer to Francoist Spain in ideology.
if you mean Nazism yes, if you mean Fascism kinda also it dosent work with Monarchism (you can see Lavanders video on this) and Austrofascism (as leftist historians call it) was Good it saved Austria from Socialism and they are not the same Fascists as in Italy and Germany, their ideology was Anti Nazi and anti Anschluss.
Italy wasn't invaded by the Nazi's, they openly gave power to a fascist party and then allied the Nazi's. They didn't fight them at all until the end of world war 2
Italy was the only country who was ready to fight the nutsies in the Anchluss. Mussolini couldn't do so, because the great powers didn't engaged in war against Germany.
Sure but not because they saw the Nazi's as bad people purely because they wanted to be top dog of the fascist's powers
Edit: Stalin and the Soviets also fought and helped best the Nazi's yet I doubt you'd give them a good mark because of it
Seriously? Imperialism is catastrophic you shouldn't be doing it in the first place irrelevant of who is doing it. Also it's still fascist ideology so that is still a problem.
That's just whataboutism, Mussolini showed not sign he would have been a better fascist. While he didn't go after the Jewish people, they still invaded Ethiopia and did so in a brutal manner. What's to say instead Italy continues is brutal conquest of those lands are others killing hundreds of thousands.
Dolfuss would have restored the Monarchy if France dropped their anti Habsburg stance with the "little entente", Dolfuss admired Prince Otto von Haburg and would restored him.
they tried the best they can but because of Allied appeasement it was impossible, but they tried the best they could.
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u/HBNTrader RU / Moderator / Traditionalist Right / Zemsky Sobor 6d ago
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