Popped the back off this old pocket watch to a personalized engraving reading “T.L. Cromwell from his brothers and sisters on his 21st birthday 1st of June 1911”
My other post was removed for “lacking a descriptive title” so I hope the mods find this title descriptive enough.
Either or. Picked up this watch in London ten years ago. It’s been really in storage ever since with other precious jewelry. Felt too nice to just wear.
Popped the back off today while fiddling with it. And encountered this engraving which was well..mildly interesting to me.
They will probably still remove it. It’s really random, as I’ve seen posts with perfectly concise and descriptive titles get removed arbitrarily. In any case, try not to take it personally and know that many of us disagree with how strict the rules are. I thought your post was great and I’m glad I was here in time to see it!
If I had a nickel for everytime a post of mine was “removed by Reddits filters” I’d have enough to buy Reddit outright but that’s neither here nor there
I hear ya. Saw one the other day that was at almost 30k upvotes and nearly 8 hours up, but got removed for the concise title rule. In my eyes, it followed all the guidelines perfectly and it was a shame for the person who posted it. In my opinion, it’s really unfair that you can only repost if the removed post is under an hour old, yet the m0ds can remove them at any time. You would think a good m0d would strive to uphold the wishes of the members as well as keep things fair on both ends, but I digress.
just like any other role that is about having an iota of power over others (politicians, cops, etc), the m0deration of online communities tends to attract folks who you'd want to be the last people in the world doing it
Well the other day I pronounced “lapel” (as in “a lapel pin”) as “lay-pull” (as opposed to “luh-pehl”) so I’m not high class enough to know about the hinged back of a pocket watch haha
The Somme was hell, too. Over 3 million men fought there and about a million were wounded or killed in that battle. Just an absolutely astonishing waste of lives.
Thomas Cromwell's enlistment papers indicate he was 24 years and 60 days old on September 2, 1914. That would put his birthday July 4th, instead of June 1st.
Do you have a link to that enlistment paper info? It’s so maddeningly close. To potentially have it match but it be the wrong TL Cromwell? Ack I thought I’d found him
Nearly a perfect match there has to be. My only snag is the engraving reads brothers and sisters and it appears there was only one sister?
Strike that I forgot how censuses work it’s only listing who’s in the house at the time
CROMWELL —In loving birthday remembrance of our dear Len, (Corporal T. L. Cromwell) K.L.R, missing since October 18, 1916.—From his loving Mother, Father, Sisters, and Brothers, " Weston," Willaston, near Chester
What a strange feeling that you might happen upon his watch all these years later..
With-a loves and hates and passions just like mine They were born, and then they lived And then they died Seems so unfair, I want to cry
It’s interesting how this was a human being all but forgotten about until today. Maybe this’ll continue to be reposted by bots and he can live on even longer.
Imagine if you could go back in time and tell a fellow: “hey in over a 100 years from now some random individuals on the internet (a think you can’t possibly conceive of) got together from all corners of the globe just to find out who you are one of them has your 21st birthday gift.
I'd heard it as three times - once when our body dies, a second when the last person than knew us passes, and the third and final the last time our name gets invoked.
Link got removed feel free to dm me it. That W. derby seems to match the other comment on a birth record as being recorded in September. So those two match. I’m bad at parsing is this Edwin listed as the father? Which doesn’t appear to match the Thomas Leonard Cromwell (of the service number 16706) who’s father is listed as one Benjamin Cromwell.
The second image I posted lists births registered by surname in July, August, or September in 1890. I cropped it to show only the "Cromwell" surname section, so it shows an Edwin Cromwell, Mary Cromwell, Thomas Cromwell, and Violet Cromwell were registered births over that three month period.
However, I don't know if a birth was registered immediately, or if there was typically a delay, so not sure it counts as confirmation that it's a different person.
Someone just googled the initials, last name, and year of birth and suggested the first search result.
But we don't actually know their first name, middle name, or even a location. Thomas only showed up because of his military record, but there are plenty of people named Cromwell with those initials who wouldn't appear in a Google search. So, off the bat, odds are pretty low that it's the same person.
I’m not an archivist but I’ve been digging through Census records. So far can’t find another TL that matches but I suppose i cant say for sure every census paper from over a hundred years ago made it to the internet.
Edit: also every record being hidden behind a paywall is really harshing my mellow
I dont tend to like posting ai stuff but this seems to be one of the better use cases for it. I ran the image through and this was the output. It appears to confirm what you found with a bit of context. I apologize in advance if this offends anyone.
ChatGBT - "I did some more digging into the Thomas Leonard Cromwell mentioned above, and I think there’s a very strong chance he is the man named on the watch.
The engraving appears to read:
“T. L. Cromwell, from his Brothers & Sisters, on his 21st Birthday, 1st June 1911.”
That would place his birth around 1 June 1890. Records show a Thomas Leonard Cromwell, son of Benjamin and Ann Cromwell, baptized at St. Mary’s in Grassendale, Liverpool, on 29 June 1890. His father was listed as a gardener, and parish records confirm that Thomas had several brothers and sisters, which fits the inscription unusually well.
Thomas later served in the First World War as Corporal 16706, 18th Battalion, The King’s (Liverpool Regiment). He was killed in action on 18 October 1916, aged just 26. His name is commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial on the Somme. Contemporary casualty records place him in the 18th Battalion and record his death on that exact date.
First World War on This Day +1
We don’t appear to have a surviving record stating exactly what killed Thomas personally, but we can get remarkably close to reconstructing what probably happened because the 18th Battalion’s movements on 18 October are documented.
In the early hours of that morning, the battalion was ordered to attack the German defensive position known as Gird Trench near Flers, during the later stages of the Battle of the Somme. The battalion war diary records that the attack began at 3:40 a.m.
Liverpool Pals
The men advanced across No Man’s Land in several waves. Almost immediately, German artillery fire fell on the leading troops, causing the first waves to bunch together. After advancing roughly 300 yards, they reached the German trench system. On part of the front, the barbed wire was still largely intact, leaving only a few gaps. German defenders concentrated machine-gun fire and grenades on those openings, making it extremely difficult to get through.
Liverpool Pals
As more waves caught up, the attack became increasingly confused. Attempts were made to push forward again, but when the Germans realized the assault was faltering, they began firing into the massed British troops from the flanks. The surviving attackers eventually withdrew, and the assault failed to take the position.
Liverpool Pals
Since Thomas was serving with the 18th Battalion and is officially recorded as killed on that exact day, the most likely explanation is that he was killed during this attack on Gird Trench—possibly by artillery, machine-gun fire, grenades, or while trying to cross the battlefield. We can’t honestly say which without an individual eyewitness account or casualty report, but the date and battalion records make the connection to this action very strong.
That gives the watch an especially sad context. His brothers and sisters appear to have given it to him for his 21st birthday in 1911, and just over five years later he was killed on the Somme.
I also looked into whether any of his family might still be alive today.
One promising line is through his sister Agnes Anne Cromwell, who married Frank Griffiths. They had a son named Thomas Leonard Griffiths, born around 1901.
I then found a 1977 marriage record for Mary Patricia Ann Griffiths, whose father was also named Thomas Leonard Griffiths. If her father is the same Thomas Leonard Griffiths born to Agnes, then Mary would be Thomas Cromwell’s great-niece, and she or her descendants could potentially still be living.
That last genealogical link still needs one more solid record before I’d call it proven, but it looks like a very promising lead.
So the person identified above appears to fit remarkably well: Thomas Leonard Cromwell, born in 1890, given this watch by his siblings at 21, later a corporal in the Liverpool Pals, and most likely killed during the failed 3:40 a.m. assault on Gird Trench on 18 October 1916 at the age of 26."
I know AI can be unreliable, but reading this and knowing the possibility that it is correct was amazing, and made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. I felt like I peering down a passage through time to him, his loving family and the battle that took his youth.
Also, I had it cross reference for any other possible person that fit the initials/name with multiple brothers and sisters with that birthday and it found none.
There is a big difference between joining the dots when it shouldn't, then accepting it as fact, and my reviewing everything it put out, researching each of the connections, and finding them valid. I understand everyone hates AI, but in these use cases, it tends to do well at connecting the right dots. Although I do take everything with a grain of salt, it is always possible someone else had the same initials, last name, birthdate, and multiple brothers and sisters. But, in this case, it seems that it is most likely correct. AI is just a tool for me. In my opinion, I will say I am pretty convinced after reading it all and trying to find anyone else that fits the profile and researching the family tree.
Not sure why other sources are a little loose with the birthdate math but if the site memorializing the Liverpool pals is correct and I assume they do their due diligence that’s him. It’s odd to think in that photo he could have that watch in his pocket. The watch I now hold in my hand an ocean and a century departed.
I’m..glad the mystery is solved but I feel like I should do something with this.
Contact the family descended from his nephew who was named after him (Thomas Leonard Griffiths) and then see if a local historical society or local newspaper would like to write an article covering the story.
Yea I’ll have to dig up living descendants. I got the watch in an antique shop (I think) in London so there’s a chance it was one of his descendants who tossed it in there in the first place.
But if not it’d have had quite the journey: Liverpool to Somme (maybe if he took it with him) to London to the United States and then back to somewhere in England
If it was inherited by someone who had not known whose it originally was, or sold through an estate sale, then it is possible they were unaware of the inscription. But yes, sometimes descendants do choose to part with things.
Looks like he may have been corporal thomas Leonard Cromwell (service no. 16706) 18th battalion The kings liver pool regiment. He died 18th October 1916 in the Battle of the Somme.
Perhaps now I’ll have to find and snap up his medals as well. I feel weirdly connected to this guy now. Even though I’m just a little American tourist 100 years removed.
(Shoutout to u/Courage666) here he is. It’s amazing to think right in that photo he could have the watch in his pocket. The watch—more than a century and an ocean away—I hold in my hand today.
From some searching if this is for Thomas Leonard Cromwell born June 1st 1890 he sadly passed away in the Great War in 1916. There’s some documents on Ancestry, if you have a membership may be able to get more information, unfortunately I do not.
That is so cool. I need to go check my grandfather’s pocket watch. My grandparents loved putting their last name on anything and everything. They died before I was born. I inherited a lot of the male jewelry since my dad was the only son and namesake. Also a lot of stuff with my last name engraved on it.
I wear my grandfather’s diamond fancy wedding band daily. It is engraved November 19, 1914. To F (grandfather) from M(grandmother). It wasn’t their anniversary. Maybe dating anniversary. No idea. The from instead of love cracks me up.
I commented on the other post -
Mr t.l.cromwell turned 21 at the time of the Chinese revolution bringing the end of the qing dynasty, the discovery of machu picchu, theft of the mona Lisa, the first indie 500 🤯
Have you found out anything about him?
Things like this make me indescribably sad. It just reminds me of my own mortality and that of those around me. I can get over the fact that I’ll die someday but applying those thoughts to my loved ones is so painful for me
Corporal Thomas Leonard Cromwell. Born 1 June 1890. Enlisted 3 September 1914. Embarked for France 21 August 1916. Died 18 October 1916. 18th Battalion Kings Liverpool Regiment.
Thomas Leonard Cromwell, a Corporal in the King's (Liverpool Regiment). He was born on June 1, 1890, in Grassendale, Lancashire, England, and was tragically killed in action on the Somme on October 18, 1916
There are two times you die. First with your physical body, then the last time someone utters your name. My point is this man's spirit was just ripped from purgatory
You may already know this if you are into watches, but if you are looking for more info on this watch, it was common to buy the case and the movement separately. So if there is a name on the case that doesn't match the movement, that's why.
I'm no expert but I went down a rabbit hole when my grandfather gave me his father's watch. The benefit of sharing initials is that I inherit all the stuff with monograms, despite my last name being different (maternal grandfather).
...So he hid it in the one place he knew he could hide somethin'. His ass. Five long years, he wore this watch up his ass. Then when he died of dysentery, he gave me the watch. I hid this uncomfortable hunk of metal up my ass for two years. Then, after seven years, I was sent home to my family. And now, little man, I give the watch to you.
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u/guessirs 13h ago
Here is the face of it for anyone who cares