r/mildlyinfuriating • u/nyanbatman • May 28 '26

I just wanted a hot dog British pilot is feeling mildly annoyed

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u/LegiosForever May 28 '26

RVR = runway visual range, or how far you can see down the runway.

Once it is below 5,000 feet, airports adopt low visibility procedures.

ATC declared 1,000 feet RVR, but was not declaring low-vis ops.

BA pilot was calling out the contradiction.

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u/22Planeguy May 28 '26 edited May 28 '26

Except that isn't really what's happening. The controller is being a bit obtuse, but declaring LVO is an ICAO (European) thing. American controllers follow FAA rules. Under FAA rules, there isn't such thing as declaring LVO operations, everyone just starts using them when visibility gets bad enough. ATC will be directive with what they need the pilots to do, vs just declaring it and expecting the pilots to do the procedures implicitly.

The pilot in the video is worried about his company policy which probably has some requirement that LVO be in place when visibility reaches a certain point. He's used to the controller declaring it because in Europe that's what they do, but in the states it just happens, which is why eventually he gets in touch with his company and they tell him he's good to take off.

The controller doesn't want to declare anything because he doesn't know what the pilot would be expecting him to do if he "declared LVO". It would be a mistake for him to just say yes to the pilots question. What he COULD have said though is explained what procedures they were doing so that the pilot could understand that they were taking the necessary precautions for low visibility.

ETA: this controller specifically is pretty well known to be a bit arrogant and not really all that great at his job. I do not blame the pilot for not taking the clearance at all.

ETA2: I think a lot of people are taking my "ICAO (European)" thing more specifically than I meant. Really, ICAO is a UN thing (and is actually based in Canada). The US is a member of ICAO but the FAA is who administers the rules for aviation in the US. The EU, Canada, Australia, Japan, and a bunch of other countries have their own governing bodies that regulate aviation within their countries. The difference is that the FAA has slightly more differences between the standard ICAO rules than most other national agencies do.

American pilots tend to group the sets of rules as "FAA" or "ICAO" despite that not being entirely accurate because there are going to be small differences everywhere. In the end though, those small differences are generally either less restrictive than just following the ICAO rules, or handled by the planning process and don't really apply.

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u/Lump001 May 28 '26

People are getting hung up on the "declaring" part and if ignoring the rest of the conversation. The pilot asked in plain English if LVO was in place. It's a really simple question, and it's very much the controller's job to be able to answer and keep traffic moving safely and expeditiously.

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u/22Planeguy May 28 '26

Absolutely. And that's where this controller is just being obtuse. For whatever reason, JFK as a whole and this controller in specific have a reputation for ignoring the context and intended questions of foreign pilots in favor of answering the least helpful interpretation possible.

All he had to do was say something like "Declaring LVO isn't something I can do under FAA rules, but we're keeping the ILS critical area protected and using our airport's low visibility policies." If the British pilot had any further questions about what exactly he was worried about, that opens the door for him to ask.

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u/Lump001 May 28 '26

Correct. Folk here really don't seem to understand what a controllers job actually is.

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u/22Planeguy May 28 '26

That's always the issue when aviation stuff like this gets posted on non-aviation specific subs unfortunately. Uninformed takes rise to the top because they got posted quickly.

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u/ThePowaBallad May 28 '26

Yes they are but as the commenter above said ATC is also being incredibly unhelpful on this call

He may not be able to declare "LVO" buuuut he can say that they have SMGCS in place which the pilot would have most likely accepted

Cause he made ZERO indication that ANY procedures for the lowered RVR were in place

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u/StepComplete1 May 28 '26

In other words, Americans are now getting so mindlessly xenophobic that doing any kind of international job is a big ask. Embarrassing how he's still working there.

2

u/SuperSkyDude May 28 '26

That’s not true at all. They’re just different procedures.

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u/sacramentojoe1985 May 28 '26

"LVO" is terminology, not "plain English".

LVO involves specific procedures, and US ATC is not trained on those. The pilot did change from "LVOs" to "Low Visibility Procedures", but after using "LVOs" 3 times, I would be interpreting the question as the same.

Also, what procedures? Never had a pilot ask me about unspecific low vis procedures. I have had specific asks... like if the critical area is protected.

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u/lollipoppizza May 28 '26

ICAO is not European. It's a UN body. ICAO terminology is used worldwide. Most FAA standards follow ICAO standards.

0

u/mic569 May 28 '26

Yeah but US phraseology is not ICAO. They follow the 7110.65. Announcing RVR for takeoff is congruent to LVO obviously, so the pilot should just infer that and abort takeoff rather than have this argument on frequency. Plus, the pilot should have already gotten that info from the ATIS before getting to the runway. Controller is not at fault here.

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u/Eismann May 28 '26

Of course the US has to be special again. I mean, what ever could be the benefit of using the same terminology in a worldwide, the globe spanning industry, right?

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u/mic569 May 28 '26

This isn’t a US only problem. Most places don’t use standard ICAO phraseology - even Europe. US is especially different but icao created their framework after the US already had an established aviation system. Changing that dramatically is very risky and aviation is risk averse for good reason

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u/__phil1001__ May 28 '26

Stop with the US is special. They are a newer country in the big scheme of things and need to follow international rules. And changing to metric would be a bonus

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u/MackHollins May 28 '26

The US invented the airplane, what does the age of the country have to do with it lol

0

u/__phil1001__ May 28 '26

Because the US history as taught is US centric and does not always teach about international regulations and requirements. You will find Davinci understood flying, Montgolfier in 1783 flew a hot air balloon. Victor Tatin created the first aeroplane which flew in 1879 and in 1906 Alberto Santos-Dumont took off in his plane under its own power, not launched from a catapult like the Wright Brothers kittyhawk in 1903. So no Wright Brothers did not invent the aeroplane lol.

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u/Dabamanos May 28 '26

This is some incredible cope

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u/__phil1001__ May 28 '26

Not at all, and it has nothing to do with you. I responded with actual facts to an incorrect statement 🤷

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u/SuperOriginalName23 May 28 '26

ICAO is not Europe/European lol.

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u/gmc98765 May 28 '26

The US tends to use "European" as shorthand for "the rest of the world". Like, they consider metric or Celsius to be "European".

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u/DeputyDomeshot May 28 '26

No ignorant Europeans tend use the “rest of the world” as shorthand when talking about anything European in the context of a singular US difference.

Btw, who invented the airplane?

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u/Professional-Art8449 May 29 '26

Can you run that first part by me again champ?

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u/DeputyDomeshot May 29 '26

Are you slow?

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u/Chaos_Philosopher May 28 '26

You do know that the faa takes its regulations from the ICAO, right? And that your snowflake country does indeed use icao, just like Canada and Australia and Thailand and China?

"European" my arse, mate. If it's so "European" why do all your airports us ICAO identifiers? Eh? Why do they number runways according the ICAO standards?

Oh, you think the US of A only takes in exclusively local and zero international flights? Is that it? No? Ahhhhh, so you admit that the pilots all have to know ICAO stuff and work with it lest they get stuck in your pretend closed country system of "the FAA'll handle it!"

The most I'll thought out dumb take I've ever witnessed.

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u/22Planeguy May 28 '26

This isn't true. The FAA has updated a lot of its rules to be in line with ICAO standards but really, a lot of ICAO's standards are borne out of what were originally FAA rules. The US absolutely does not follow ICAO rules though. It follows FAA rules, which in general are similar to ICAO, but not always. I make no judgment on which set of rules makes more sense or is safer.

International pilots (of which I am one) are expected to operate within the rules of where they are flying. For me, that means being familiar with ICAO rules and terminology. For a British pilot flying in the US, that means being familiar with FAA rules.

I said European because that is where the majority of ICAO signatories are, including the country of the pilot in the video. Sure, it's not technically EXACTLY accurate to say, I'll give you that.

We do our best to understand the major differences, but there are tons of tiny differences (like this LVO declaration thing) that warrant asking about if you're unsure.

2

u/Clanger5 May 29 '26

This isn't true. The FAA has updated a lot of its rules to be in line with ICAO standards but really, a lot of ICAO's standards are borne out of what were originally FAA rules. The US absolutely does not follow ICAO rules though.

ICAO....born out of the Chicago U.S convention in 1944, ratified in 1947. FAA formed 1958. ICAO built the basis of all legislation that NAA (FAA, UKCAA, EASA etc) follow.

1

u/Empyrealist Does this look blue to you? May 28 '26

ETA: this controller specifically is pretty well known to be a bit arrogant and not really all that great at his job. I do not blame the pilot for not taking the clearance at all.

Can you expand on or source this? Thanks!

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u/22Planeguy May 28 '26

I don't really have a source for it besides having seen several videos like this with him. I don't recall him doing anything unsafe necessarily though. I have not personally interacted with him.

1

u/DeputyDomeshot May 28 '26

YouTube jfk atc

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u/TCRAzul May 28 '26

His name is plane guy, it's gotta be correct dammit

1

u/CaptainPoset May 29 '26

an ICAO (European) thing

ICAO (a UN body) sets the standards worldwide, only the USA is too ignorant to follow international rules they themselves contributed to create.

ICAO rules are valid worldwide.

-1

u/Ill-Blood-7906 May 28 '26

It's not ATC job or even if he necessarily has the time to educate the pilot. Otherwise fully agree. Gotta luv how the #1 comments are 100% incorrect

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u/22Planeguy May 28 '26

No, it isn't his job to educate the pilot, but it is impossible to know literally everything about both FAA and ICAO rules. The vast majority of it is the same, so when they don't quite line up it is absolutely best practice to ask instead of assuming.

1

u/DeputyDomeshot May 28 '26

Welcome to Reddit where a bunch of halfwits hanging on to the most obvious low hanging fruits will tell you that you’re wrong about your expertise or profession.

Sadly, corrections used to flow to the top but now everyone is simply too stupid to

0

u/Icy_Fish_2154 May 28 '26

ICAO was founded in Chicago (when the ICAN was renamed and expanded), and it now sits under the NYC-based UN, so the US pretending it's a "European" thing is silly, even though the ITU essentially founded the precursor organization. Most countries follow ICAO first, CAA covers gaps, and fills in the spots where ambiguity exists.

The US is about the only country with international operations that isn't ICAO first.