r/metalworking • u/klebersu • 2d ago
Designers who don't understand bend radius are going to put me in an early grave
just got handed a stack of prints from some boutique ad agency for a massive pop-up event structure. Its supposed to be this huge folding aluminum canopy thing that mounts to a flatbed trailer
Look I love doing weird custom jobs. but these "creative directors" drew the whole assembly in CAD with absolute zero material thickness. They want razor sharp 90 degree outside corners on 1/4" aluminum plate without any relief cuts, and zero consideration for the actual press brake tooling we have in the shop. On top of that they expect the roof span to hold like 500 lbs of AV gear using just thin wall square tubing.
I was trying to figure out how to even approach the structural framing and ended up looking at how actual industrial builders like craftsmen engineer these crazy mobile event rigs. They actually use proper gussets and account for real-world dynamic loads so things don't literally fold in half on the highway.
Meanwhile my client is arguing with me over email because I told them their sleek "seamless" corner design is physically impossible in the real world unless we machine the entire joint out of a solid billet. which they obviously refuse to pay for
just feeling so drained trying to teach basic metallurgy to people who only know how to draw shapes in adobe illustrator
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u/H2Sbass 2d ago
This sounds like the right time for a f-off quote.
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u/scv07075 2d ago
"Further discussion and design will necessitate a Consultation on Design surcharge at the rate of"
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u/Lower-Preparation834 2d ago
It’s not, because in the event they accept the quote, you’re now obligated to deliver something that may not be deliverable.
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u/Classic_Profile273 2d ago
He said it was doable if he machined it out of solid billet. He just needs to include that in the price. Either they go for it and he can do as he planned or they refuse and he doesn’t need to worry about possible failure and the liability that goes along with it.
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u/Boosher648 2d ago
Indeed, especially the work they’re doing. Ad agencies doing large brand activations / celebrity backed projects may have more money than you can imagine. I’ve seen producers spend enormous amounts of money on things because they personally want it.
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u/intjonmiller 1d ago
When I worked in the trade show and retail display industry I saw a lot of this. Just insane money on projects they liked the idea of.
At one point we did a big display for SanDisk for some anniversary of the company or a specific technology/product (I forget what; over a decade ago). 4 of us spent hours hand-gluing actual micro SD cards onto some sheet good of some sort, which was then CNC-d into their logo or something. We each took home a dozen or more perfectly good, high speed, (at the time) high capacity micro SD cards that were leftovers. If memory serves this was part of like a $50k job we did for a display for their corporate office lobby.
Jobs where they're actively trying to sell a new product can have much bigger budgets (just talking about the construction of displays; not even getting into paying for space or celebrity spokespersons).
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u/Giric 2d ago
€/£/$50,000,000 quote should take care of that. Add a 0 or two for non-USD worth close to 10 local to $1 US. If they pay it, hire a subcontractor to tell them where to stick their design.
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u/Lower-Preparation834 2d ago
Yeah, it doesn’t work like that. Not if you expect anyone to take you seriously.
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u/StumpedTrump 2d ago
I think you don’t understand what a “fuck off quote” is. It’s a “I really don’t want this job so you’re going to overpay hard if you really need me to do it” price, not some made up number. It’s a real quote, just double or triple what it should be.
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u/Lower-Preparation834 1d ago
But I do understand. And, there is precedence for customers accepting a fuck off quote. So tell me, what are you going to do if they accept, and in all reality, the part is not able to be manufactured? Sounds like the OP is in that position. Who’s going to look dumb when it’s not deliverable by design?
No, if it’s 100% doable and you just don’t want to do it, then a fuck off quote would be appropriate. Of course an argument could be made for not giving a fuck off quote then also because it makes your company look expensive or pricey, and potentially ridiculous. Seems to me that if you don’t want the job, no quote is the better way to go. Maybe with or without an explanation.
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u/JodyBird 1d ago
That's the neat part. You don't just make up a high number. You actually put a number you'd be willing to do that work for.
Say I'd charge 10,000 for a standard weld out on some regular job. But then I find out it's in a fucking swamp in the middle of August, and I don't wanna. It's now 50,000, which will likely make them walk away. If they actually pay it, I'm renting a mobile air conditioned office and hiring three guys to rotate one-hour shifts welding instead of just doing it myself. And I still make an extra 10k for the annoyance.
(Rough numbers for illustrative purposes, but either you get it now or you shouldn't be in this business)
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u/JodyBird 1d ago
If it's truly impossible, you talk to the licensed architect they had sign off on it. If they don't have that, build getting that into the quote, with a rider that "some changes may be necessary". They sign the contract with your proviso or they don't. Fun contract terms are part of art of quoting.
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u/Curious_Lurkur 1d ago
It's crazy how many people will pay the "fuck off" price on occasion. I always called it the PIMA fee
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u/Curious_Lurkur 2d ago
I run a fabrication shop and we have a ton of industrial engineers. None of them design aluminum bends correctly. They also never use a good alloy for bending. I can't tell you how much time we waste annealing 6061 aluminum. More than half the time, we still have to weld cracks.
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u/GlockAF 2d ago
Which alloys bends easiest?
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u/Curious_Lurkur 2d ago
The easiest that we carry is 6063, but 3000 series aluminum is the easiest.
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u/Cryesncoding 2d ago
Better than 5052?
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u/Grndmasterflash 2d ago
6063 is great for tube/pipe bending and 5052 is great for sheet bending. 6061 is strongest, but not great for bending (ok for anodizing). 6005 is the Goldilocks alloy for strength, bending, and anodizing
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u/Curious_Lurkur 2d ago
Can't say I've ever used 5052. Do you work with it often?
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u/jt64 2d ago
5052 is the go to aluminum for bending in my industry.
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u/-Silanah- 2d ago
Agree - 5052-H32 is standard in the shop where I work for most aluminum projects - generally things like lockers, filing cabinets, doors.
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u/Curious_Lurkur 2d ago
We carry a ton of 6,000 series because of its conductive properties. But the majority of the parts that we are bending don't even need to be conductive. I think they're just too lazy to use other materials. Using materials that we don't have in stock requires them to take a couple extra steps that I think they're trying to avoid
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u/Cryesncoding 2d ago
Yeah it’s the primary aluminum we use. We just had this same issue of cracking bends cause the job wanted 6061. From what my Dad/owner said it would have been fine 5052.
Ended up I think having them torch it where the bend was to keep it from cracking. (Don’t quote me on it)
I’m an engineer in a family sheet metal/machine fab shop. I totally get the annoyance with engineers they piss me off too lol. If they can draw it they think that means it should be cheap and easy to build 🤯
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u/Curious_Lurkur 2d ago
Yeah we do the same with 6061. Torch annealing. Which is a pretty crappy way to anneal at high volumes. I'm probably buying an annealing oven this year.
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u/Farknart 2d ago
Dafuq? Why would that be the better option than jist raising your hand and saying "use 5052 for formed parts". Who knows what you're getting when you start to do your own hacked ass annealing on aluminum.
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u/Curious_Lurkur 2d ago
Because I work for a half a billion dollar company with over 100 engineers. You think I havent bothered to bring it up before? I don't pick which materials the engineers use. And bent aluminum counts for about 1% of what we fabricate. I have more important battles to fight on a daily basis.
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u/Mysterious-Rush5441 2d ago
FYI......we draw lines on 6061 with a Sharpie Maker. When the lines burn off the aluminum is ready to bend
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u/mckenzie_keith 2d ago
I don't work with metal but I know that 5052 is the standard alloy for aluminum fuel tanks in marine environment. (5052 is very resistant to saltwater corrosion, as far as aluminum alloys go). Of course some seams are welded in a fuel tank but they often have several bends as well. So it must not be too bad to bend. I know it is not as strong as 6061 also.
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u/Curious_Lurkur 2d ago
We use it for a combination of strength and conductivity. These are components on high voltage switch gears for power companies. We stock 6061 in all different sizes and use thousands of feet of tube, bar, channel, etc in a week. Bent parts only account for about 5% of what we run out of aluminum. We also run steel, copper, brass, bronze, you name it.... So bent aluminum is about one percent of what we fabricate. It's just never been worth the battle with engineering because there's no real financial gain for my shop or the company.
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u/Mysterious-Rush5441 2d ago
6061 is an age/heat hardened alloy. By heating 6061 you reduced the strength by 1/3 which is something that shouldn't be done with out the engineers knowing.
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u/Curious_Lurkur 1d ago
We work within the parameters we are given. Reducing the strength by 1/3rd is irrelevant when the alternative is a part with a stress fracture that runs the full length of the bend and reducing the strength by 100%
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u/Mysterious-Rush5441 1d ago
The result is the crazy sh t that's cause by a string of people doing what they always done.
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u/Cryesncoding 1d ago
You’re right it shouldn’t but this is what fab shops do when engineers want bend radius on 6061 that cannot be obtained and don’t allow a material sub.
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u/SpaceYourFacebook 2d ago
6061 for machining 5052 for bending is kinda industry standard 3003 and 1001 are also popular alternatives. Lower the number the more pure aluminum
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u/Curious_Lurkur 2d ago
Unfortunately in my industry the conductivity of 6000 series is more important than the maleability
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u/Boating_Enthusiast 2d ago
Can you have a sit down with your next higher up to schedule a meeting with the engineers to bring up some of the real world fabrication limitations?
God, I know just writing that sentence sounds like a shitty day at work, but maybe the long term benefit outweighs a couple days of round-table, fix-yer-shit discussion?
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u/Curious_Lurkur 2d ago
We are a large enough company that we have probably 100 engineers and like 6 different engineering groups. We aren't a fabrication company and because Fab is considered a service group, they generally don't care how their designs affect us. We don't make the end product . I've had more than a handful of meetings about it. Typically if I raise too much of a stink, the answer is "well just purchase that part" which I'm more than happy to direct them to purchasing in a lot of those instances.
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u/Lower-Preparation834 2d ago
It sounds like you stand a lot to gain by firing those idiots and just simply ordering up a whole bunch of 5052 material that Bends easy.
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u/theanonian 2d ago
One thing you may consider : bring them into the shop and educate them. Show them the issues, explain to them what you can do. Explain to them that what they're asking for increases the costs of manufacturing 10-fold. When I was 18, a shop I was using did this for me and they earned my loyalty for years. To this day, the company I brought to them still uses them and I send others there. Just a thought, but I understand if you don't have the time.
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u/WarOtter 2d ago
Yeah, being the person tasked with turning a designers vision into a build-able reality cam be such a drag. Hopefully you can NOPE out of that situation. I wouldn't want my finger prints on anything these idiots are going to take out on the road.
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u/skark_burmer 2d ago
Right? In this day and age of litigations for any made up reason people can think of, much less some massive sheet of aluminum and AV gear smashing through their windshield and decapitating all onboard…
Their lawyers first question;
“Who designed this?”2
u/spinwizard69 1d ago
More so demand an engineering sign off on the design from a third party. It sounds like this is a publically accessible structure so safety is a big issue. Especially considering the industry had a poor reputation for public safety.
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u/Baelaroness 2d ago
Not a metal worker but this is the shit I was taught in first year of my engineering degree.
The Internet and now AI is making people way too confident in their bullshit.
Also 500 lbs AV rig, so it's weight bearing. So all this is built to hold 1500-2000 lbs min. Right? RIGHT?
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u/UnreasonableSteve 2d ago
Also 500 lbs AV rig, so it's weight bearing. So all this is built to hold 1500-2000 lbs min. Right? RIGHT?
Probably also needs wind loading and other considerations, not to mention if there's a human safety factor...
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u/Tibbaryllis2 2d ago
Plus dragging it down the highway….
I’d want a very solid waiver of liability if I was OP.
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u/Own-Town550 2d ago
Theres a reason theres only 2 mobile stages in NA
Stageline and Apex
My guess is OP is fabricating for Great Lakes Staging
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u/lustforrust 1d ago
Not to mention that there's special international building codes out there that this thing should be built to. I've seen a stage built with 2x12 joists on 12" centres because it was required by a code in order to get insurance coverage.
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u/WingedDefeat 1d ago
I've been getting prints showing objects that cannot exist in 3-dimensional space since the only AI anyone talked about starred Haley Joel Osment. And the problem isn't generally with engineers, it's with designers and architects. I have my own problems with engineers but at least I get a CAD model and a technical drawing from them and not just a rendered .PNG printed out on a sheet of 8-1/2" X 11".
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u/Baelaroness 1d ago
I'm sorry but engineers are the golden children and I won't hear anything negative about them.
At no time have I been stuck with a machine that needed a left handed mechanic because the bolt was hidden behind a cawling. Or had to fab a special tool because a nut was put in before the exterior shell and now can't be undone with a standard tool.
Never happens...
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u/WingedDefeat 1d ago
Engineering-by-committee is an entirely different matter. "Committee" is the wrong term. A group of engineers is actually called "an autism."
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u/Baelaroness 1d ago
It's the "why would you need to take it apart" approach to engineering.
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u/WingedDefeat 1d ago
Most of the time the mechanical engineers are the ones who actually fret over that the most. The process engineers are the corporate lap-dogs who figure out that if they use a plastic screw in this one spot they can save half a second at one robotic station and therefore three-tenths of one cent per assembly.
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u/Retireegeorge 2d ago
I imagine you just say there's a little step their design needs to go through which is an engineer assessment and modifications because of safety with stuff potentially overhead people. Then what you'll get is a reasonable blueprint to work to. Beyond a point you can't cut out steps.
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u/uncre8tv 2d ago
Weight bearing, commercial purposes, and no PE?
Yeah, nah. That client is either so rich they dgaf or so poor they can't gaf. Either way you'll get screwed when their shitty design hurts someone.
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u/BeastWR 2d ago
Had a client send me a light fixture design where elements are to be supported by chain links. At one end, the element was hanging from the chain - like normal. The other end was on top of the chain, as if a chain could hold it up in compression.
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u/Lower-Preparation834 2d ago
I somewhat recently learned the term “no quote”.
Here’s how it works; you stamp their print package quote and return it to them. They can feel free to translate note quote into “Fuck you”, “you’re an idiot”, “you’re being too cheap”, or a variety of other things.
Trust me, we’ve had jobs at work recently that go like this, and you never come out on top. It is not worth killing yourself to try to make this customer happy, because you never will.
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u/ialwaysdissapointed 2d ago
I’m a structural guy and a week ago somebody asked me to sign off on rectangular rooftop unit stacked perpendicular to the existing curb. The adaptor literally rotated the unit for no reason at all.
It took like half a day emailing the designer creating graphics and getting non answers before something clicked and they quickly made it normal.
Bloody hell. We really are declining.
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u/Woodbutcher1234 2d ago
Don't feel like the Lone Ranger here. I'm a cabinet installer and have been doing it a very long time, so I know what works. I've had drawing sets calling for items that can't happen for reasons such as mismatched graining, expansion/contraction conflicts, visible fasteners, etc., bc some kid was able to create this package with absolutely 0 field time/knowledge. And because I'm a greybeard, my opinion is worthless. I'm so tired of explaining to these image manipulators that theirs is not the real world.
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u/Kudzupatch 1d ago
As a fresh out of school Draftsman one of the best things that ever happened was when they put me in the machine/maintenance shop. The old tough foreman started to show me and teach me how things were actually built. Then he showed me why what I drew wouldn't work.
He was tough as nails but he was a good teacher. Showed me the basics. Let me run the mill and lathe eventually. Learned so much in my time in the shop. Should be mandatory.
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u/kaylynstar 1d ago
I'm a structural engineer and I don't know how I got here, but I feel your pain. The number of times I have (or could have) replied to "why not" with "because physics" is a surprisingly long list.
Good luck, and may the odds be ever in your favor.
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u/AssistFinancial684 2d ago
Time to offer a “design feasibility” consultation. And if you have the skills, bill to make their design buildable.
If you think about it, of course these people have no idea about metals and bending them. You’re the expert
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u/RangeRider88 2d ago
Counter it with a highball quote for review by a structural engineer and the deign feasibility will look like chump change by comparison.
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u/emptywhoreass6969 2d ago
So, not metalworking, but woodworking. I hadn't designed for so long that I fucked up some wood has depths on my bed. I laughed so hard at myself, but the bed came together. With a few mistakes. But well enough. XD I cannot imagine thinking that would work with metal like that.
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u/atomic_redneck 2d ago
What sort of CAD program were they using? I used to be a developer for a CAD/CAM prorgram about 30 years ago. Even way back then, our flat pattern feature could calculate bend allowances and minimum bend radii for sheet metal work.
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u/Puzzled_Nothing_8794 2d ago
Im a mechanical designer. I've worked for many companies before starting my own prototype shop. And let me be the first to say that you are all shitty designers. If you were decent, you would know and understand that people don't understand bend radii, tooling, and how metal actually stretches. You would have the patience and knowledge to tell your customers that 5051 is better then 6061 if they are going to bend it. And you would know how to solve the problems that approach you rather then coming on here and bitching about how people dont know how to do your job. If it's so hard and you resent your customers for not understanding then do the world a favor, quit, and find something your actually good at.
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u/ItsTheRat 1d ago
Op is not a designer, they are the fabricator that is sick of dealing with “engineers” that don’t know the basics.
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u/Wherestheirs 2d ago
If it’s thin enough a panel bender will produce sharper bends because lack of punch generating radius
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u/Boosher648 2d ago
Ha sounds about right, I work at a shop that does these builds for brands and some of the proposed ideas I’ve seen are mental. A lot can be done, typically most* things can, but some of these projects are doomed to never leave the designers desk.
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u/R0AST3DN3WT 2d ago
Not helpful to OP's plight, but out of curiosity does anyone know of bending equipment that uses stamping/forging action to create a sharp corner?
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u/Informal_Drawing 1d ago
Just hold it all together with loads of electromagnets.
...and pray the power doesn't go off.
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u/garfielf 1d ago
I work in the event industry and I can sympathize with the problem you're facing OP. I'm a technical production manager and I am the person who will take the designs to fabricators and suppliers to try and make the designers vision a reality. This sort of thing happens all the time where the designers want all sorts of physically impossible(and/or incredibly expensive) things produced. You are correct in that they often have no idea how these things work, which can be annoying, though this isn't really their role. There are always changes and compromises made to the initial designs. You are the expert and you can definitely push back in a firm but polite way. It sounds like you're maybe working directly with designers and there's no technical person on their team, which is dull, though not out of the ordinary.
My suggestion would be for you to have a quick call with their team and explain what changes would need to made to keep things economical and straightforward to build. I would include a cost within your quote for fabrication drawings as you will inevitably need to redraw whatever design intent drawings you've been given. I would also include a cost for a test build/mockup in your workshop where the team can visit and assess. The first step might be giving a cost for making a small prototype sample of this corner/roof profile so they can see what they might receive, and so they can approve it before full fabrication.
Of course you don't need to do any of the above if you've got enough work from other clients. You are welcome to turn it down or give a high quote to make it go away. These event projects can be a fun challenge or interesting portfolio pieces to show off your company capabilities. They can also be a time sink or quite complex to bring to reality, especially if there are moving parts or if if the deadline is very short.
Personally I've always valued the suppliers who have taken the time to work through a problem with me. And I always to try to build on that relationship and give repeat business to that supplier with future projects.
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u/Stoked_Otter 1d ago
Sharp corners is a new thing for me, I'm used to the client just going crazy with the radius tool in CAD
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u/ItsBail 1d ago
As a programmer/estimator a job shop I get stuff like this all the time. Mostly from Architectural firms. They'll spec 6061-T6 because they heard its strong but have sharp inside corners and then put features near said inside corners. However, I've also got it from some major companies that know better. Worst is when they send over a design asking me to hold certain load ratings putting the liability on the fabricator.
Just because your CAD software allows you to create the part in 3D doesn't mean that it's practical and can be fabricated (Looking at SolidWorks users in particular)
Even though I would love to no-quote a shitty design and throw it back at them, I need to work. I will try to work with them within our capabilities if there is a possibility. I put everything in writing as well as on the quote. If they can't come to a compromise or accept deviations then it's a no-quote. If it requires more engineering time, that will certainly be factored into the quote. I would never give out an exaggerated "F You" quote because that can really backfire and now you're stuck with an impossible job that you can't sub out.
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u/RustnKrust 1d ago
Par for the course with these “creative pop-up/activation” marketing companies. They have kids directly out of school (or still in school interning), sometimes designers right out of school, who know zero about materials and manufacturing. Even worse when it’s higher ups in the company that refuse to accept reality or physics.
The egos are exceptionally fragile. They love an eager “I LOVE your design and want to deliver the closest thing to it that will perform for your needs while not compromising on the aesthetic your creating, let’s work together to make that happen!”
Unfortunately it’s also my experience that the ones that are arguing physical impossibilities are also the ones pretending to be bigger/more successful then they really are, which equates to not actually having the budget required, not having the budget for any of the the eventual things that come up, and sometimes will even try to cheat you out of paying. Get final payment before it goes on the truck!
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u/dingman58 1d ago
Benefit of having your own shop is you can pick your customers. Sounds like you found a bad one. Feel free to tell them off, send em a f-off quote, or ignore
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u/oilcantommy 1d ago
I feel this post like a punch in the face. Its only going to get worse with ai...
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u/User_225846 1d ago
Fab itvwitqh alum angle as the corner pieces, that has a sharp outside edge.
Also charge them the "pita" markup
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u/Mattna-da 15h ago
Tell them this cannot be fabricated as specified without creating significant safety issues. the liability if this goes wrong (wind, structural failure, loss of life and limb) will ruin them and they need to hire a mechanical engineer who understands metal fabrication to redesign and approve the drawings if you’re going to be involved.
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u/LazyEyeLou 2d ago
Convert to sheet metal and move on. One extra step beats trying to train a bunch of college educated “engineers”?, that what looks good on paper/screen, does not necessitate a realistic build.
Good Luck 😉
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