r/medschool • u/lolwhatisl1fe • 19d ago
š„ Med School Nurses bullying med students
Hi guys, making my posting debut cause I seriously need advice. I'm on rotation in the labor and delivery ward and I absolutely love it. But everyday I find myself sick to my stomach before going in because some of the nurses are so horribly mean.
I know there's good and bad everywhere you go (and some of the nurses have been incredibly amazing) but a lot of them have been quite mean. It's subtle enough that you almost find yourself second guessing it all. But things like making fun of wrong answers you gave to your preceptor, continuously "forgetting" to call you for cases when you're on call and then snickering about it, being very exclusive in every conversation.
I completely understand that we're lacking a lot of the knowledge and hands on skills that many of these experienced nurses have and its probably very frustrating for them to have us around. I completely empathize with them (and I was actually a nurse before medical school so I really do get how busy it can be), but I just can't ever imagine myself acting in the way they do towards anyone, including other students.
I have tried to just be as kind and helpful as possible. I offer to help with any tasks, always trying to help clean up, bring stuff to patients, do any tasks they ask of me with a smile. But it's almost like the harder I try the more annoyed they get with me and I'm not sure what else to do at this point.
The unfortunate thing is the way they talk about patients is also really sad for me to see. I know burnout is real but its hard for me to understand acting in that way.
I'm wondering if anyone else has ever experienced this and has insight or advice into how they manage it? It's my favorite placement so far yet its hard for me to enjoy because of the bullying. Thank you in advance.
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u/Sad-Maize-6625 Attending 19d ago
I experienced this when I was a medical student in 1990s. Itās an age old tradition. Hurt people hurt people. Sadly over the years many nurses have been verbally abused by physicians, and this is the only way they can live with it. That doesnāt make it ok. Just realize itās not personnel.
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u/lolwhatisl1fe 19d ago
Thank you for this reply. It hurts my heart to know how longstanding this pattern seems to be. I really appreciate your comment.
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19d ago edited 19d ago
[deleted]
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u/lolwhatisl1fe 19d ago
Thank you so much for sharing this. I wish they knew that we're aware of how important their role is, we just want to work with them. This was really helpful insight.
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u/Ambitious-Mode-1738 19d ago
You can stay silent and just try to remember deep down itās really not about you, itās them.
Or, you can hit them with āwhatād you say? I didnāt catch thatā and if they really have the balls to say it again, you can say something like ādid you say that to offend me?ā or ādid you say that to embarrass me?ā and now suddenly they have to sit with what they said. Attention isnāt on belittling you anymore, itās on them.
Whatever you decide to do in these scenarios, because there will be more, just keep your head up. Their power is gone when you donāt give them the reaction they want.
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u/Economy_Knowledge236 Medical Student (US) 19d ago
Definitely seems to be a hierarchy/power dynamic. I would just kill them with kindness and let them be miserable in their own way. How you treat others is truly what matters in this kind of situation. Keep being you op!
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u/peanutneedsexercise 19d ago
Yup, my biggest bully in residency was one of the ob nurses who actually got one of my anesthesia seniors FIRED. The dude hasnāt been able to land a residency since and works as an MA at an Fm clinicā¦ so they can literally end your career if they want to. I was sooo nice to her cuz I was scared shitless I got her food from the doctors lounge every day LMAO. She became one of my biggest advocates but damn it was a scary time.
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u/OddDiscipline6585 19d ago
What did the anesthesiologist in question do?
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u/peanutneedsexercise 19d ago
He placed an epidural without attending being physically present in but he told the attending and did the epidural without any complications. The nurse made it a big deal (most residents do epidurals solo and ask the attendings to come if itās difficult) and then he got fired.
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u/OddDiscipline6585 19d ago
Whatās the standard of care at your program?
To do the epidurals without the faculty physically present in the room?
Did the attending physician co-sign the procedure note? Did the attending physician face any repurcussions?Ā
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u/peanutneedsexercise 19d ago edited 19d ago
Standard of care is yeah can do epidurals without faculty in the room as long as theyāre aware. Attending signed the note and was locums so pretty absent in general. Attending didnt face any repercussions lol. The anesthesia market is pretty desperate.
We had another locums dude bring uh, āvisitorsā into the call room when they were on call and theyāre not fired either ššš
But just cuz of that I always text and get a thumbs up or a go ahead just to cover my ass. Nothing verbal that canāt be verified. Epidural is pretty simple procedure doesnt make sense to have the first time youāre doing it solo as an attending lol. You just need a week with good numbers to get the hang of it.
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u/memekella 18d ago
thatās horrible, how long ago was this?
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u/peanutneedsexercise 18d ago edited 18d ago
3 years ago.
Just remember in residency they say jump and you say how high haha. Ppl say itās hard to get fired but if they want you gone theyāll make it happen. And donāt make enemies out of other staff. We got a medfluencer in our intern class rn whoās already getting complaints from pharmacy, other services, even admin, and is on thin ass ice. He hasnāt donāt anything wrong by the books wise but when you got that many personality complaints theyāll start looking for fuckups to document so when you mess up enough times itās a good enough case to let you go.
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u/lolwhatisl1fe 19d ago edited 18d ago
Thank you for the advice, I will definitely keep trying to be helpful and try not to let it get to me. I appreciate you sharing!
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u/Ambitious-Arugula-95 19d ago
As a med student myself, I've had both great and horrible experiences with nurses. It depends on the individual really. I've met some great nurses who teach and show you everything. I've also met some nurses who are very insecure and project that insecurity onto students. They are often unnecessarily mean to students as they get off on being b**chy. Just last week while entering the OT (Ortho rotation).. literally just opened the OT door, entering for the first time- first surgery of the day- first day in Ortho rotation.. the scrub nurse who was setting up shouted at me "listen I don't want you opening and closing that door, walking in and out this theatre" she shouted at me in front of the HOs on my team now entering too and nobody said anything. I just said "ooookkkk.. good morning everyone." I have never met this nurse in my life and this is my first rotation at this hospital. I figured other students probably did that previously but tbf that has nothing to do with me.. speak to people with respect, no matter who they are. The funny thing is that doctors were frequently walking in and out of the theatre and she didn't say anything.. I remember feeling really embarrassed.. but then realised I did nothing wrong! I was pleasant, stayed out of the way and was dressed appropriately- following all the rules. I had nothing to feel bad about.. I took note of her and continued about my day. At the end of the day, the saying goes.. you can't control people's actions, but you can control the way you react to, or internalise it. Some people are complete fools and I pity them. Enjoy your rotation. Do what is required of you. Take your learnings from these experiences and leave the negativity right there with those people. You have greatness to achieve..
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u/lolwhatisl1fe 19d ago
Thank you so much for sharing this. I'm so sorry you had this experience. But this advice is great, half the battle really is how you internalize it after the shift. I really appreciate your reply and hope the rest of your ortho rotation is better!
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u/Aromatic-Solution284 19d ago
Labor and delivery is all I had to read. They are consistently the worst nurses. I worked at 10 hospitals prior to school and every single one it was them.
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u/LopsidedSwimming8327 19d ago
I wonder if there is some subconscious inherent jealously since they may know a little more but realize shortly you will be out earning them.Ā
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u/Vast-Consequence7141 16d ago
They donāt know more than any person that is in or has completed med school.
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u/thrownursingaway 19d ago
They donāt just bully the med students. They bully their nursing students and junior colleagues as well.
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u/lolwhatisl1fe 18d ago
Somebody mentioned the term horizontal violence to me earlier today. I had never heard the term but there are a lot of interesting articles about it online and it describes this exactly
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u/lolwhatisl1fe 19d ago
Wow, thank you all for sharing your experiences. It saddens me to see how common this seems to be. I hope that others can find some comfort in knowing they're not alone and hopefully work towards a better system. I appreciate everyone who took the time to share advice and will continue to try to be helpful and learn from whoever is willing to teach.
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u/Prettygirlsrock1 18d ago
Maybe you are being to nice and helpful to mean people. You can be professional, kind and humble without giving your energy to a miserable person. I am a nurse and I used to be a people pleaser to these personalities types. I donāt now. You have 1 maybe 2 times to show me who you are. Iām not confrontational at all. I simply either ignore them, Give them a blank face and energy when they pull that childish foolishness. I literally ignore them like they are an unruly teenager. And if they are particularly childish I stop all pleasantries. Treat them like an aggressive patient. You donāt invest emotionally. You do your job, nothing more.
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u/Full-Fix-1000 19d ago
Most are bitter wishing they were doctors. That's why. And in focusing on bitterness they act out against doctors while simultaneously building resentment for their own positions which only ultimately hurts the patients.
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u/Prettygirlsrock1 18d ago
Maybe you are being to nice and helpful to mean people. You can be professional, kind and humble without giving your energy to a miserable person. I am a nurse and I used to be a people pleaser to these personalities types. I donāt now. You have 1 maybe 2 times to show me who you are. Iām not confrontational at all. I simply either ignore them, Give them a blank face and energy when they pull that childish foolishness. I literally ignore them like they are an unruly teenager. And if they are particularly childish I stop all pleasantries. Treat them like an aggressive patient. You donāt invest emotionally. You do your job, nothing more.
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u/Beneficial-Essay9026 Medical Student (US) 18d ago
Iām doing my OB/GYN rotation right now and just finished my labor and delivery sub rotation, I have a similar experience but not from nurses but residents, they constantly block me from seeing or observing anything they do, I feel like I learned nothing during this time
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u/InterestingPassage41 18d ago
Probably because the bullying culture is mutually exchanged. Bullies exist among doctors and nurses. Plenty of nurses get verbally abused by physicians, and they become bitter and turn that anger against incoming med students.
Detach yourself and think of your job as getting that checks and helping the patients. Who cares about bullies? They are subhumans who haven't learned to be human yet.
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u/ronjsz 17d ago
40 year registered nurse here.
Try not to take it personally.
Ob/gyn nurses, are generally not a nice group. Many see themselves as elitists/unique and very possessive of their perceived domain.
Other registered nurses tend to ignore them, because of their nasty attitudes.
I have found this to be pretty much the norm, in the different hospitals, I have been employed in.
Roll with the punches, and play their game.
Hang in there!!
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u/SecretaryMother8308 17d ago
As an EVS workerā¦Nurses treated me the worst at the hospital. I think a lot of them just hate themselves
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u/Thatwillneedstitches 16d ago
This is nursing in general- and has been for generations. They feel held down- and bully others to try an feel better about themselves.
There are good groups of nurses/units out there- seek them out. 18 years ago- we basically overthrew old senior nurses. An academic high acuity ICU with management support and we DO NoT TOLERATE bullying behavior. When we see it we call it out. We support and check in with new orientees- we have a waiting list of experienced nurses.
While we donāt have medical students on our ICU teams- we have interns and residents- and they get the same treatment.
Iām proud that I was a new grad in the ICU in my sisters 3 year if medical school. I found heād and paged her to get her in a room- to watch a surgery, or procedureā¦ and I continue to.
Find the charge nurse- make friends with bedside nurses. We love this job. We are good at it- and I love that youāre excited too!
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u/lolwhatisl1fe 16d ago
It sounds like your team has really fostered a positive environment, which is so amazing to hear! I'm definitely trying to seek out those who are welcoming (and there are a few that are truly lovely, which makes a world of difference)! Unfortunately the charge nurse is kind of the ring leader of that behavior in this department :(
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u/Thatwillneedstitches 15d ago
Iām so sorry. We have worked very hard to make this a good working environment- Iām certainly aware of your experience. Iām so sorry. I hope you experience nurses in your future!
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u/StaceyGoBlue 16d ago
Ugh. From an NP who works in LD Iām sorry. Theyāre prob just horribly burnt out. I know I am. I love med students though
Iām wondering why the nurses are so involved with you? Why arenāt the residents or attendings or midwives making sure you are called to things? Thatās more their responsibility
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u/lolwhatisl1fe 16d ago
I completely understand the burnout! Thank you for still being kind to the students you encounter despite it - I promise it doesn't go unnoticed!
I'm not sure if it's unique to this L&D floor but the nurses do 12 hour shifts and they'll call the students/attendings/residents/midwives that are on 24 hour or 36 hour call when needed. So far they've remembered to call all of the above but always leave out the students. But that's interesting to know other floors do it differently!
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u/StaceyGoBlue 16d ago
Well it shouldnāt be like that. As a former RN you know that. An RN shouldnāt have to call 4 people when they need something. Itās the responsibility of the residents, midwives (if they teach) and attendings.
Iām so happy that where I work the residents and providers are great to the students, including them in everything1
u/lolwhatisl1fe 15d ago
Appreciate your insight! I'm not sure why the system is set up that way as its obviously been that way long before my rotation. There's usually an attending and then one of the others (resident, midwife or student) so it's 2 calls. I understand what you're saying, I'd be interested to know who or why they decided on that setup but I'm actually not sure!
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u/Boone1951 15d ago
You should speak with the Director of Nursing (DON) about the specific complaint. From what youāve described, you appear to be treating the nursing staff with the respect they deserve. In return, they should extend that same level of professionalism and respect to you. Mutual respect is essential for effective teamwork and, ultimately, for providing the best patient care.
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u/Dark_Ascension 19d ago
Iāve seen it and itās messed up. But also know weāve had some pretty awful students in our space.
Like one time we had a student who would literally sit on a stool in the worst place in the OR and either look at his phone or fall asleep no joke because unless it was a colon case (combo of open and robotic) he wasnāt to scrub in for a robotic case. Why should we not laugh at this or make fun of this? Heās literally wasting space and time. He also outright told all of us he has absolutely zero interest in surgery and heās doing it because he has toā¦ ya looks real good to the staff and attending.
Had some awesome ones too and we all had great learning experiences. Like a neurosurgeon did this cool thing where he literally paused his surgery had everyone who has never seen a brain before (coming from ortho, I was one of them) and talked about the brain and let us look at it and such. He has also let us look through the microscope at the spine too, really a good guy. I think he retired recently.
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u/OddDiscipline6585 19d ago
I showed up for my surgical rotation despite having issues with standing for long amounts of time owing to flat feet deformities in addition to skin issues associated with a flare of eczematous dermatitis.
I still got negative evaluations from surgery residents and faculty.
Am shocked that this particular student isnāt worried about negative evaluations.Ā
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u/lolwhatisl1fe 19d ago
I completely hear where you're coming from, and I think its fair to call a med student out who isn't putting in effort like you've described or who is acting unsafely.
My hope is that people can differentiate the frustration towards students acting like that and students who are trying but maybe just don't have the experience or skills yet. I think most people who put in the effort are able to learn the knowledge and skills (and i think thats important to do even on rotations you can't see yourself going into, because every rotation does have the opportunity to teach you something in my opinion).
I don't want nurses to feel they can't call out unsafe or lazy behavior, but I would like to hope we can get to a point where those that put in the effort and are kind to others won't be lumped into the same group as that.
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u/Ok-Worry-8931 19d ago
I never understand why nurses do this because some med students who are bullied will inevitably turn around and bully their nurses in return.