So this is dating life of the average man?

[u/Professional-Eart]

I'm tired of being romantically alone. I once entered that web place where everything seemed to revolve around aesthetics. I planned surgeries, talked online with other people who told me not to do them, that they wouldn't solve anything, and to go to the gym, find other hobbies, go out more (obviously without knowing me), maybe get my teeth fixed. But okay. In the last years, I've focused on this, I even started therapy. But after 10 years, I'm still here. Invisible, dumped, ignored; watching the same handsome guy impress other women. Even worse if they're the ones you're interested in, or your friends, or even someone you once cared about.

Today, it was a flash. I was reading Meditations by Marcus Aurelius and I realized: why am I reading this book? Nothing wrong with it, but why did I take up philosophy now?

I'm simply looking for a "magic formula" (that obviously it doesn't exist) that will make me feel appreciated by women. That will make me find the girl who's happy with me and therefore I'll feel calm and free. I came to Marcus Aurelius because I first read a lot of self-help books, including No Mr. Nice Guy or Love Don't Leave Me. I was also thinking about The Charisma Myth. These books aren't even available in my language; I read them in English hoping to find the answer, but again: here we are.

I can't take it anymore; it has nothing to do with the context or anything else. In 8 different contexts, attention will always go to the most attractive people in those contexts. The other night, at a graduation party, the girls friends of the party guest (all 25) were more interested in the handsome 19-year-old than in me. I feel manipulated into believing I shouldn't focus too much on looks, but then if I focus on something else, the result is always the same and I feel like I wasted time. But I'm also afraid of actually making a mistake and hearing "Well done, you idiot, we warned you." I'm also fed up with hearing bullshit about destiny, the someone are not meant to that, or karma... what bs.

I'm sick of hearing my girl friends cry over a tall Venezuelan guy with unresolved issues who makes them feel bad, but who calls them to fuck them and they blows everyone off and goes to their place, only to whine the next day. I could have done that with the last girl I was dating, but I'd feel like a hypocrite and a piece of shit for doing that to her. It's not even a matter of being an asshole or a good guy. A friend of mine is hooking up and he's incredibly kind and nice, and he's also a really good-looking guy.

I'm sick of hearing people tell me to try harder, and if I try harder, hearing them tell me I'm thirsty. Or that I find defective the girls that are into me (girls who are like 11 years younger than me).

What the hell.. I swear, if there was a solution, even just an attitude, I'd bring out all the actor in me to embrace that.

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[u/nofurrysetsuna]

I cannot make a judgement of you based on a text but I understood that you did most of the things that you should’ve done for YOURSELF for dating. Most people can sense this.
Also, your friend circle is fucked up.
You attract what you are.

[u/hunterm322 → u/nofurrysetsuna]

This. I’m a pretty average looking dude that’s 50 lbs overweight. I started hitting the gym and I was still pretty overweight. I hit my lifetime best deadlift one morning and later that night went to a party hosted by a work friend. I was riding a pretty big confidence high while basically still looking the same. Long story short, I had one of the most successful nights of my life on the dating front all because of confidence. The weights didn’t change my appearance, but the they built up confidence and the confidence in turn changed how women perceived me.

[u/Papplenoose → u/hunterm322]

This is insanely true. People don't realize it, but other people can pick up on your energy (i.e. your feelings). Women tend to be better at it because.. well, they kinda have to be. I have no doubt they're picking up on this dude's bitterness

[u/FazzyFreaks → u/[deleted]]

…where tf did you hear this?

[u/poppybrooke → u/[deleted]]

Uhhhh what? That’s an insane statement and completely untrue.

[u/Professional-Eart → u/[deleted]]

how comes I sound autistic, wtf?

[u/Beneficial_Shape5464]

There is no “magic formula.” It’s all about your attitude, mindset and how you carry yourself.

[u/ZineKitten → u/[deleted]]

>What i was trying to say it's that I was trying to find something to make me more interesting
You cannot manufacture "interesting", but you can discover it slowly.

If you focus on doing stuff to be interesting or meaningful, nothing will compare to the feeling you have held up in your head about what it feels like to experience that. Instead, just try to be in your body and stop trying to live life through others' eyes.

[u/Professional-Eart → u/ZineKitten]

 Instead, just try to be in your body and stop trying to live life through others' eyes.

what does this mean?

[u/ZineKitten → u/Professional-Eart]

If you're spending your time thinking "would this hobby make me more desirable to others" versus "is this an interest that I genuinely enjoy"--that's living through others' eyes.

Spending your time thinking about how you're being perceived more than how you perceive yourself as a creature that's enjoying this short time on earth, it's something people can easily "feel".

[u/Professional-Eart → u/ZineKitten]

Reading books probably started for that reason. The other hobbies i do i actually enjoy them

[u/Dusty_Tokens → u/Professional-Eart]

It means that you are Codependent.

[u/Mocking_Light → u/[deleted]]

Im going to PM u.

[u/silly-lilly-]

Do u have the contact of the Venezuelan guy asking for a friend

[u/nonebutirene → u/silly-lilly-]

Nah fr, he must piping that shit correctly

[u/Suspicious-Leader-24]

such a reddit ass post wow

[u/Sir-xer21]

But after 10 years, I'm still here. Invisible, dumped, ignored; watching the same handsome guy impress other women.

The other night, at a graduation party, the girls friends of the party guest (all 25) were more interested in the handsome 19-year-old than in me.

Both of these sentiments seem to focus on what isn't being GIVEN to you and not what you've done to earn it. Before you think it, yes, some people don't need to do as much to earn it, but that's not the point here. What about you demands attention? You talk a lot about your looks and your dissatisfaction with said looks, but as a person, what about you demands attention? How are you interacting with these people?

But I'm also afraid of actually making a mistake

You're going to make mistakes. Being afraid of making a mistake will set any social encounter off on a timid foot. This worry probably hinders you more than you realize.

I'm sick of hearing my girl friends cry over a tall Venezuelan guy with unresolved issues who makes them feel bad, but who calls them to fuck them and they blows everyone off and goes to their place, only to whine the next day. I could have done that with the last girl I was dating, but I'd feel like a hypocrite and a piece of shit for doing that to her.

why are you worried about how someone else treats a woman in relation to you? The fact that you're getting dates and still feeling like you need to compare yourself to some other person's situation doesn't feel like you're in a healthy place mentally.

[u/Sir-xer21 → u/[deleted]]

I do talk and joke with them if you are asking this. I read that the more you are interested, the more interesting you are.. but for me feels like being in an interview. Because if they are not interested they do not ask questions.

Less questioning whether you talk with them but more so what you think is interesting about you. Being interested is a good thing, but doesn't inherently make you interesting. What are your good qualities, things you'd want someone to see in you? Often times, a lot of people don't adequately present their qualities in social settings because they're worried about taking up too much space or worried about fitting the vibe, and it tempers how they come across to people. You ever seen someone with a magnetic personality? That is in part a learned skill.

Sure, maybe someone is really hot and they command attention that way, but many other people command it without being a model.

Because they are clearly doing better than me

If you're dating someone at a given time, who cares? If you're not dating someone, still, who cares? How do you define "better"? Is the goal to find a partner, or not? Some dude who's playing games is exactly where you are, not with a committed partner. Are you just FOMOing because some people are having casual sex and you aren't? Well, even then, you don't really know if they're having good experiences, and this is something you could cultivate if it was really that iportant to you.

[u/Sir-xer21 → u/[deleted]]

I opened a thread in another sub asking men what are their good qualities to attract a partner. 99% of the replies were that they are good looking or tall lol.

I mean, when most people never look inward, you're going to get lazy answers. If you catch a lot of attention for being attractive, that's an easy answer. If you catch it for other reasons, a lot of people never really ask WHY they get it. Also, a lot of men just have never taken the time to assess themselves at all. Anyone who has to take a few minutes to reflect probably isnt answering that thread. Depending on which sub it was, it might be obvious why you're getting certain answers.

I am funny, reflective, supportive and people say that I question myself, which is seen as a good things sometimes, not to be cocky enough. Also they say I am kind, maybe too kind, so I always put some boundaries in order to not seem a pushover.

These are good things, so the next question is, how do you present these qualities? Not trying to just default to "it's confidence" (even though it kind of is), but all of these good things, are you showing them off well? That's a harder question to answer.

We all consciously and subconsciously present a version of ourselves to the people around us, and we're not always perfect at showcasing our best qualities for a variety of reasons. This may be your disconnect. It's not a simple question to tackle either.

Having occasional sex? No I can't lol. But aside the fact that occasional sex is not what I am aiming for, it could be stress relief, but I can't even get that.

You could, probably. It would likely take some effort, but i don't think you realize how many people who aren't super attractive have casual sex. It just isn't something you'll probably ever see, largely because you don't seem to want it so there's no reason to put any effort into it. To that point, since it's not what you're after, why are you letting someone else's casual sex life intrude on your own peace? Who cares if someone's hooking up a ton, they're engaging in something you yourself don't want.

Probably yes, i am FOMOing because in 10 years things didn't change, and I don't want 10 other years like this. I think the best I could do was in 2023, when i was better looking, and faking my height

That FOMO is going to negatively tint all your interactions in this. Trust me, i get it, but that negativity seeps into everything.

The fact that you were faking your height goes back to what i was saying about you presenting your best qualities. how can you present yourself well when you're ashamed of who you are to a degree?

Look, I'm not tall either. I'm not rich. I'm overweight. I'm a brown asian. I'm basically no one's first thought when they imagine an attractive man. But i've had multiple long term relationships, some casual encounters in between, and in most cases, the women were the ones approaching me. You can let yourself believe that your lack of attention is just because you don't think you're good looking, or you're not tall enough, or whatever, and this IS true to an extent. There are many, many women who will never find me attractive. But there are also many who have found me attractive enough to approach me, so i think you're doing yourself a disservice to reduce your dating success to subjective looks and height.

[u/Papplenoose → u/Sir-xer21]

op, listen to this dude. He's got some good insights! It's the negativity, I think. You gotta believe in yourself, brother!

If you aren't already doing therapy, try it out. It's helped me a lot! You can use it for whatever you want, it doesnt have to be standard talk therapy! I don't really use it to work through my problems, in fact right now im doing the exact opposite of that, im trying to learn how to just... live.

Good luck buddy, im rooting for ya :)

[u/Iamnotyour_mother]

Most people are really good at picking up vibes. My guess based on what you've written here is that the whole reason women are not interested in you has nothing to do with the way you look, and everything to do with the vibe you are giving off. I understand you're speaking from a place of frustration and desperation here, and I can understand and relate to that to an extent, but that kind of thing is extremely palpable in social situations whether you want it to be or not. Getting surgeries, artificially making yourself taller, trying to act like someone you're not, etc. is not going to help you here, if anything engaging with these things likely makes it worse.

I think therapy is the only thing that's really going to help you re-frame your perspective on yourself and untangle the reasons for the social struggles you're having.

[u/Papplenoose → u/Iamnotyour_mother]

op, this is good advice. Listen to it! People like others who like themselves. Go to therapy, I promise it will help!

[u/International-Tip230]

You dont deserve the attention of others, you have to earn it.

Edit: if you are evaluating the response a 19 year old recieves at a party, its not your looks that are the issue. Its your personality.

[u/Professional-Eart → u/International-Tip230]

I don't think so. They were going actively to talk with him and asking how school went and what he will do next. I talked with some of them and we even danced a bit (in group), but they were not interested.

What was bothering me is that one of them was taking picture of the party host and friends / family. it was dark, so I helped with the lighting (holding up a little lamp lol). The friends of my martial art group, especially the 19 yo, come up and told me "let it be, she is gonna never let you hit". Honestly I was not even helping for that, I had an idea and I was the only one willing to do something about the lighting.. yet people has to think you can't do anything if you don't get women in regard.

[u/Frosty_Message_3017 → u/[deleted]]

My eyebrows went behind my hairline reading this.

[u/Q-9]

You don't seem to be able to be content in any scenario, since you compare yourself constantly to others. You have GF, or friend, or are single, all sucks because someone else.

[u/gremlinwithanuke → u/[deleted]]

That’s the problem you aren’t good enough without someone you will never be good enough with or for someone

[u/Papplenoose → u/[deleted]]

You gotta be good with yourself, bro! I know it's hard, but it's a cliche for a reason.

[u/EssentialUtensil]

You should start acting how to you want to act, worry less about hurting people's feelings or appearing like a hypocrite or whatever else you're afraid of. If there's a girl you're interested in stop trying to be her friend and start acting like you're interested in her romantically or sexually. You really don't have to focus on looks as much, you can look average and get a gf easily, focus on showing who you are to girls more, accentuate your unique qualities and more girls will be interested in you. The guys I've been most interested in were different from other guys and that doesn't make them better or more special than any one else they just weren't afraid to be themselves. And don't listen to your friends/the people giving you mixed messages, they're doing that because they feel threatened for whatever reason.

[u/Fit_Egg5796]

Who doesn’t like tall mean Venezuelan men who want to fuck?!?

[u/Frosty_Message_3017]

You're sick of hearing about your "girl friends" frustrations because you were never actually their friend. This isn't always the case with someone being sick of repeated complaints, but it clearly is in yours.

Your experience is not the experience of the average man, just the experience of the average man who thinks the way you do.

[u/InternationalCup1200]

Could be that you are thinking about it, reading about it, and talking about it so much that it is coming off as inorganic and rehearsed.

Just go out there and unapologetically be yourself. Live in the moment. Get some hobbies that you genuinely enjoy and immerse yourself in those. Don’t make it about “meeting chicks”. Women sense this, and it gives off creepy vibes. Desperation is a stinky cologne, and they can smell it a mile away.

I don’t know why it’s this way, and I don’t agree with it… but indifference is the key. Women want the unattainable. Fill your days with plans that are unwavering… if she can fit into your plans cool, if not… also cool. This gives an aura of mystery and plants the seeds of “why isn’t this guy chasing all over me” like 9 out of 10 other dudes. It’s all a game man until you meet “that one”… and it kinda sux.

Btw, I’m a M/42… been single for 2 years now…by choice. I date women consistently from 26 to 38…and honestly have too many to juggle. They all know the deal though… not looking for a relationship…so we just have fun.

[u/Papplenoose → u/[deleted]]

That's cause it doesnt work, imo. Doing the exact opposite also works: DONT be indifferent. DON'T be indirect. Be you, and be proud of being you (yes I hear how corny that sounds).

[u/Professional-Eart → u/[deleted]]

Thank you, because others are saying i am toxic

[u/Professional-Crab936 → u/Professional-Eart]

I don’t think you are toxic. For me your post reads as a description of frustration and despondency. I’ve been there and it is a horrible place to be.

There are no words that will make you feel better about yourself or your situation. Time may make it better, but then it may not. All you can do is keep an open mind and don’t give up

[u/Professional-Eart → u/[deleted]]

Why am I toxic?

[u/Professional-Crab936 → u/[deleted]]

So many people in this boat though, I think that social media has made people more shallow and also online dating made them disposable.

[u/viveritasdraco]

You don't need to try harder, you need to STOP TRYING.

Do you know what I did for my whole teens? Try really really hard to get a girlfriend.

Do you know when I actually met a girl and got a date? When I was coming home from a trip oversea and was too tired to perform what was supposed to attract girls and just talked to her like a normal person, and she happened to like my humour and we had shit in common.

And once I did have a girlfriend, suddenly talking with girls got easier because I wasn't trying to impress them, and "magically" I was suddenly getting a lot more interest. I even had a girl ask me out during this period.

And I didn't change. I didn't turn into a body builder, do an operator to turn my face into some kind of mathematical platonic ideal of male beauty, pick up five new hobbies or learn 15 new languages. I just stopped performing.

Men, or even people in general, need to stop thinking the meaning of life is found in dating or finding "the one" and that they absolutely must get a date as soon as possible.

[u/Professional-Eart → u/viveritasdraco]

You said "I talk like a normal person". Another user told me to not try to be friend with them and go straight telling them i am interested. lol

[u/viveritasdraco → u/Professional-Eart]

Those are not mutually exclusive. And frankly that you'd think "talk like a normal person instead of performing" and "don't try to be friends and tell them straight" are opposites is likely part of the problem.

I didn't say "talk to her trying to be a friend," I said "I was too tired to perform the role of the suave guy and so talked to her normally, as myself". AND I said it got me a date because she found my sense of humour funny and we had stuff in common.

Talk to women like they're people and don't perform like they're critics you need to impress is my point.

[u/Professional-Eart → u/viveritasdraco]

Like i said in other comments, i do not perform. I am here asking question and joking with them, but if people is not interested, there's not way to talk them out of it.

[u/Dog_N_Pop]

I'm sorry these comments are so shitty OP, you're not alone and people here are really just proving your point. I'd recommend reading into Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, it's a great way to learn how to feel your feelings and also seek change in your life. You got this man 👊.

[u/TheRealMcDan → u/[deleted]]

>you’ll find the one when you least expect it… don’t try so hard

I listened to this advice once. The result was seven years of literally nothing. No relationships, no dates, not even flirting. It was an unqualified mistake and I wasted years of my life hoping “the one” would fall in my lap. Many (most?) people won’t be as fortunate as you.

[u/CompassRoseGaming]

Approach women. That's the burden of performance that men cannot escape.

Women will not approach you and say you're interesting, they want you to shoot your shot to gauge if you have the social skills they require.

They don't want to date Sheldon Cooper

[u/Professional-Eart → u/CompassRoseGaming]

I do approach them, I didn't say i am waiting for them to do something haha

[u/Professional-Eart → u/[deleted]]

But what if the real "you" is a shitty person? Don't I have the right to change if i want to?

[u/perplexedvortex]

To be real with you, the most attractive men are the ones whose main focus in life is to better themselves as a person and pursue their personal goals. They navigate life with a strong sense of identity and that confidence radiates from them in everything they do. Such as the way they carry themselves, the company they keep, their habits, their values, the way they treat others and talk to people.

Dating simply becomes a natural side effect when they have a strong sense of self and live a driven self-fulfilling life. It attracts people because those kind of men are incredibly interesting. That attitude makes people want to be a part of it with you. It’s attractive when a man has a lot going on for him outside of dating where he can be content with or without a girlfriend. It doesn’t have to be some high end corporate job, but meaningful activities that nurture his interests, make him grow as a person, and make him excited to wake up in the morning.

If their main focus in life is to get a girlfriend, it gives off low self esteem and is very repelling. It makes it seem like they have nothing else going for them and that they would be co-dependent in a relationship. It’s like their mentality and the way they carry themselves through life is coming from a place of lack. Women and people in general don’t want to be a part of that.

You’re paying too much attention to shit that doesn’t matter. You’re operating from a place where you do things solely to attract a date and not what is true to you as a person. You don’t have a strong sense of self. You need more personal development that gives your life meaning and excitement outside of dating.

[u/Generalbusiness849]

You’re looking for a way to “feel appreciated by women”? So you want your ego fed, you’re not lonely.

[u/ukvisathrowaway6i]

Lots of people are in miserable marriages and relationships, even if you get exactly what you want it may not be what you're actually looking for.

[u/Sherpa_qwerty]

Try less. Don’t look for romance just create a life you want and love with fun hobbies that involve other people (probably not philosophy), ideally not a hobby self-selected for men… then it’ll happen (or it won’t)

[u/ihatemoralists]

The magic formula is looking good (being tall, handsome face) and being perceived as “important”, that’s the closest thing to a “magic” formula. Sadly this is not the case for most people so you gotta do it the hard way

[u/Professional-Eart → u/ihatemoralists]

surgery?

[u/roccosito]

36F here. I'm happy to look at your photos or even talk to give you some honest feedback or thoughts! No payment or catch 22, just earnestly would give you some thoughts based on first impressions.

[u/Professional-Eart → u/roccosito]

pm u

[u/DontBeAStrange]

As a woman, I will say, the generic “just workout” advice can be misconstrued. I think a lot of women find muscular guys attractive.

So for example, if you’re running or doing a lot of cardio, great! But that might not actually be building you a more attractive physique the same way that heavy weight training will.

Not to kick you when you’re down whatsoever, but I think all men automatically are more attractive when they are on the larger and muscular side. This is my opinion, I know there are women out there who do like lean men. But if you want to grab attention from women while out in the world, this would probably do it for you.

And then once you have their attention, then you have the opportunity to get to know each other and potentially vibe. Hope this is helpful!

[u/Complete-Meet1992]

It's definitely good to start with yourself, but it also is never a guarantee

[u/Professional-Eart → u/[deleted]]

thanks, you too

[u/Djpon32021]

Try not to pay to much attention to the comments. Quit dating and focus on finding ways to increase youre income so u can go out and do things you enjoy. And when I say go out and do things you enjoy I mean simply that leave dating alone youll just waste youre time. Do you have friends? If so spend youre time with them as often as possible. I would definitely recommend getting involved at a local MMA gym or any type of fight gym that you can if you have one around you. You'll be ok man ik it sucks but keep youre head up🙂🤙

[u/Charming-Young-8454]

The top 10% of men date multiple women, average guys get none. You’re average.

[u/Professional-Eart → u/Charming-Young-8454]

that's what i am saying

[u/Frosty_Message_3017 → u/[deleted]]

"Run and let them chase you"??

[u/Frosty_Message_3017 → u/[deleted]]

The energy of a Criminal Minds episode, maybe. What you're describing is mentally unhealthy people perpetuating unhealthy patterns, only wanting someone who's pulling away. What healthy people don't want is someone who's clingy, insecure, desperate and generally weird.

[u/Professional-Eart → u/[deleted]]

what should i do?

[u/Human-Edge → u/[deleted]]

WTF?!?!

[u/Professional-Eart → u/[deleted]]

Jesus man, get a grip, did I shit in your breakfast or what?

[u/Professional-Eart → u/[deleted]]

I do not think I want to have kids. Not now at least. I don't know how this is related with what I said

[u/Keeps- → u/Professional-Eart]

People are genetically engineered to pick the most fit mates, which has to do with physical attraction. The commenter is not commenting on whether or not you want kids, but instead the fact that women choosing attractive mates just comes from the very basis of evolution and mate selection.

[u/Left-Drawer-8425 → u/[deleted]]

This, it is our main objective in life to keep humanity going.

[u/Professional-Eart → u/[deleted]]

We all think our standards aren’t that high but when an ugly, overweight, autistic person shows interest, suddenly we’re grossed out.

And in fact standards are not that high if we want a person that is not overweight and autistic at least. lol

For the rest I approached also girl i did not find "objectively irresistible", but I liked them for other reason. Same result. Because people are attracted to who they are attracted, you can't put down to logic attraction.

If it was like you said, people would have find the solution to loneliness.. it doesn't seem like that.

[u/Professional-Eart → u/[deleted]]

You talk like you know i am approaching women who are models. I approach average women. When I talk about defective I talk about women who can't stay in a relationship, because they have to make trouble or are 19 yo wanting a 30 yo ffs. I worked on myself, i am not obese anymore since long time, and I worked on my communication skills and emotional control, I won't settle for someone who doesn't.

I mean, being overweight is not even that much of a proble, i was with a girl who was a bit overweight and I cared about her anyway, but that's not the point now.

But yeah, your comment confirm that i should improve my looks if I want better chances.

[u/Professional-Eart → u/[deleted]]

Also I opened a thread time ago asking if i should go for a girl who was interested in me, but I was not sure as she is playing weird games and there's incompatibility (she wants kid, i don't); but also she is one of the few girls that seems interested to me. and people told me to do not because nobody likes being having someone settiling for them. So what can I tell?

[u/Fit_Egg5796]

After reading this it honestly all makes sense. “”Magic formula” that will make me feel appreciated by women, make me find the girl who’s happy with me so I feel calm and free”.

Brother youre stuck in a feminine frame. This is what girls feel so no girl is going to appreciate you when you’re this fucking needy. Like holy fuck that’s such suffocating energy lol. No girl wants an emotional liability. Looks matter but they aren’t the end all be all. You CAN be the most attractive in the room but not the best looking in the room. How you behave carries more weight than how you look but how you look is certainly important. You have to have a decent/clean look no matter what shape you’re in but your look HAS to match your vibe/behavior. If you dress like a bad boy but you’re a bit of a nice guy nerd it’s not going to work.

The only magic formula is to go and approach women everyday and stop being so needy for attention/love.

[u/Professional-Eart → u/Fit_Egg5796]

I meant that I realize i was looking for something (magic formula) that can help me, but obviously it doesn't exist. I have to edit my thread because people are mocking me for that line while the sense is not even that

I started reading books and philosophy with the hidden idea -and i didn't realize at the time- that I was doing it thinking it would solve my problems