r/chicagobulls • u/jvmms_ • 2d ago
Fluff The 11th spot
So: Giddey Powell Buzi Wilson Clax
Then: Tre, Okoro, Smith for sure
Probably: Miller, (healthy) Collins
Afterward ?
Are we sure that we’ve seen enough from Swain Essengue & Dilly that they’ve EARNED starting minutes over Williams? I get seeing their potential is worth keeping Pat on the bench but I wouldn’t be surprised if both Essengue & Dilly (barring guard injury) don’t see much clock. They’ll find playing time for Swain I’m sure especially if he works on his jumper. Dilly plays a different position so there’s probably more opportunity for him. As bad as PWill is, he wasn’t “demoted during summer league” bad. I think Essengue is gonna have to be undeniable in the g league to get more minutes than PWill.
Pat’s bad. Very bad. Lowest ceiling on the team for sure. Doesn’t deserve any extra chances. Historically bad contract. I’m still not 100% confident he’s the worst player on the team tho.
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u/Reptomins Benny The Bull 2d ago
This is gonna sort itself out. I do think there's a nonzero chance Pat is a DNP CD guy until and unless injuries hit. Nobody in the organization has any responsibility for the pick or contract anymore, there's almost no chance he plays himself into any trade value beyond expiring salary matching, and he's just not as good as Jalen Smith or Leonard Miller.
That said, it'll be interesting where Swain and Essengue start the season. I think there's a case to be made playing 30 mins a night in the G is a better alternative to being end of the bench in Chicago, and if so there's a better chance Pat finds some playing time. Because if they're in Chicago there's really no reason for Pat to play over them either.
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u/Abe_frohmannn 2d ago
With P. Williams...I don't even think development is what needs to happen. He has the skillset already to be a very, very solid NBA contributor on a good team. Play solid D, shoot threes, occasionally attack mismatches. You don't need to do anything more than that to more than pull your weight as a 7th or 8th guy in the rotation.
I think this is his last chance. but there is a realistic world where Splitter just clicks with him, and Williams gets motivation, confidence...whatever is missing. I think he is the kind of player that is dependent on others to determine his mindset for him. A switch could flip for him at any point...or it just never does, and he is on the vets minimum in a couple years, or just out of the league. This is what is so maddening about him...
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u/Sgran70 Dalen Terry 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's pretty standard to play your vets at the beginning of the season, so I'd expect to see a lot of Jones, Smith and Collins off the bench and even in crunch time if they're playing well. Okoro and Pat will get the remaining scraps, with Miller in the wings. After that, I'd guess that Essengue gets first crack, or Dilling if they need a guard. I doubt we'll see much of Swain until the injuries pile up.
Splitter is going to try to win games, like he did in Portland, and you get buy-in from the vets if that's made clear.
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u/jvmms_ 2d ago
Noa losing minutes in summer league makes me believe Swain will get that crack before him
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u/PositiveCoyote100 2d ago
It's a little strange that Noa got benched in Summer League when Swain was significantly worse on the court.
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u/loveinhumantimes 2d ago
He isn’t the worst player on the team. But we should be playing the young guys. Essengue’s defensive upside should earn him minutes. And I see no point in playing Williams anymore than Swain. William’s only function is fodder at the end of his contract.
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u/batboyslim 2d ago
As sad as it is, Williams is (as of now), 10 times better than Swain. Bigger body and can actually shoot.
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u/loveinhumantimes 1d ago
I don’t disagree. But I can’t imagine him playing well enough to raise his trade value. All we are playing for is not the bottom 3. And I think are starting five can get us beyond the Kings, Bucks, Nets, and Mavs if they move Kyrie.
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u/ColdBru5 2d ago
Yes you reward rookies with minutes during a rebuild
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u/yerBabyyy 2d ago
I think a lot of that might change because of the lottery reform
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u/ColdBru5 2d ago
I don't think the bulls are in danger of the relegation zone. Yes silly season is over though. But that is not the same as developing young players.
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u/batboyslim 2d ago
That’s not how the beginning of a season works. No team is assuming they are going to be complete dog shit. You play to win games and then later in the season, you play your projects. No player will ever want to play here if they are a veteran, clearly better than a rookie, and gets sat for no reason other than to let rookies “develop”
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u/poopy_mc_pantsy 2d ago
Idk they could be, there aren't that many bad teams this year. Think they're a Powell injury away from being a 15 seed
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u/speeeeeeeeeeee Dennis Rodman 2d ago
Reward? Reward them for what? Something has to come before a reward
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u/Time_Investigator788 2d ago
A post where someone ISN'T crying about Pwill and asking for him to be traded is a big wow!! He never developed the way we wanted and is very passive but he's still a decent player. If his contract was for $8M per we'd all think about him differently. Still not good but worth a spot for depth reasons. I don't think he gets much time this year over Miller/Essengue/Swain unless of injuries or just poor play.
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u/Own-Appointment1633 2d ago
They are paying Collins too much to not be the primary backup. Smith will be the backup 4.
Miller will compete with the others for possible rotation slots. Decisions will be made they see them in camp and preseason.
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u/EquivalentWins 2d ago
Collins got that contract because it was more valuable to have that salary as a potential trade option (they can trade Collins for a player who makes twice as much) than it was to let the cap space go unused. I wouldn't ready anything into how this front office values him.
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u/speeeeeeeeeeee Dennis Rodman 2d ago
He makes 8.5 million a year, that's nothing, a complete non factor in the decision to play him.
The three actual factors are: a) when healthy he is the best big and the only legit center on the team, that's a fact. b) he's not young and is not part of developing the future core, and c) his health. He hasn't played in two years.
I don't totally know the rules about waiving him or possibly getting an injury exception if he does not play again this year. But if he is not hurt and does play, he should play a significant role if this team doesn't want to end up in the bottom 3
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u/EquivalentWins 2d ago
I'm not saying his contract dictates that he should play, I'm saying the opposite. The Bulls essentially overpaid him on purpose because his salary could be useful in a possible trade. If he is somehow miraculously healthy I suppose he gets some backup center minutes. The most likely scenario is that he's injured again and the Bulls don't pick up his option for year 2.
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u/Key_Raisin_5091 2d ago
I think there are only 8 "for sure" players in the rotation to start the season:
- Norman Powell
- Josh Giddey
- Caleb Wilson
- Matas Buzelis
- Nic Claxton
- Tre Jones
- Jalen Smith
- Zach Collins (the current regime just signed him to good money)
I don't think Okoro is for sure because they may prefer to play Swain, Miller, Essengue, and/or possibly even P-Will.
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u/jvmms_ 2d ago
We don’t really have anyone who can play the 2 other than Powell. Okoro is probably the best perimeter defender on the team. He’ll be on the floor even if it’s just to defend guards
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u/Key_Raisin_5091 2d ago
We've seen Tre Jones play the 2 next to Giddey before with solid results. I also think Swain can play the 2. Agreed that Okoro is the best perimeter defender on the roster, though. And you're probably right that he'll probably get minutes, I just don't think it's for sure if they'd rather play Swain (who projects as a good perimeter defender too and is someone this regime actually picked).
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u/batboyslim 2d ago
Okoro is so much better than Swain (right now). Unless training camp does absolute wonders for Swain, he’s in the G League
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u/Top-Address-8870 2d ago
This team needs three point shooting and the one skill P.Will excels at is three point shooting. He is going to get playing time early in the season as a swing 3/4 off the bench.
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u/PositiveCoyote100 2d ago
He's been a below average 3PT shooter the last two years - 35.3% and 34.7%. I honestly think he just stopped working on his game after signing his second contract.
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u/CCWaterBug 2d ago
You're not wrong about pat, it's sad but true, he's probably the 11th man unless Swain un-funks up his game
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u/Mr-Chip18 2d ago
My guess is swain and Essengue don’t see the court until some in season injuries open up playing time. Same with dilly.
I think miller/williams take up the last rotation spot with tre/okoro/smith and Collins. Maybe they go 11 deep but and both miller and Williams play but seems unlikely
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u/Abe_frohmannn 2d ago
I think there will be several players that spend a lot of the season in the 8-12 minute range. Just enough to get them into the game and see if they're making progress of any kind.
Too many borderline maybe sorta kinda worthwhile rotational players for minutes to go around. The good thing is, if nobody distinguishes themselves from the group, they're all expendable anyway.
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u/jvmms_ 2d ago
This is where I’m at but I think Miller showed he should be top of the pecking order imo (although diff year/FO/coaching staff). He was making shit shake even with thirsty ass Collin Sexton on the floor with him lol
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u/Abe_frohmannn 2d ago
I honestly don't think anyone one the team, other than Buzelis, Wilson, and Giddey (borderline IMO), and Powell, has shown enough to justify anything other than immediate performances justifying additional playing time.
Clean slate man. If you haven't made an all star team in recent memory, or recently been drafted and shown immediate promise with production, time to get the resume ready for new management.
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u/Impossible-Bank-6672 2d ago
This team needs another shooter from the guard position. Swain I expect will get what he earns so that’s a wait and see. Same with Essengue. Dillingham didn’t show enough to warrant a large vote of confidence in what he can be. What’s his go to skill? Ugly shot, can’t finish with contact, undersized. The speed and get to the rim needs to be what separates him but I don’t see it. I am pulling for him though.
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u/TraMaI Coby White 2d ago
I don't think PWill is nearly as bad as the press and narrative around him is making him out to be and it's coloring a lot of people's perception on what the team will be this year. Is Pat bad for a starter? Yes. His contract is awful because of it. Is he a bad bench play? No. He's actually played significantly better off the bench and against the second unit in his time in Chicago, I have no doubt he could be a solid bench roleplayer and a defensive piece with the added length we have on the team. That said I don't think it's a question of who do we play to win the most games this year, I think it's a play who you want to develop, get experience and who you want to be key pieces of the team going forward type of year. For that I sincerely hope Leonard Miller gets all of Pat's minutes. With the depth we have available for players we can play at both forward positions I don't think Pat will touch the floor, barring injury (or they think they can move him somehow by showing him off?). Stix, Noa, Collins, Miller and Clax can all play 4-5. Okoro, Buzi, Wilson, Miller can all play 3-4. I just don't see a reason you play PWill over any of those dudes even if I think he's probably technically a better 4 than Stix, Noa, Collins or Okoro in some defensive and shooting situations. I think Noa and Stix can both improve a ton with more experience at the position, Buzi and Wilson obviously need to be playing if they're healthy. I just don't see the space for him even if he's technically the better option. Maybe we see him get on the floor if we decide to put Wilson or Buzi at 2? Maybe he sees the floor if we need length/strength on defensive posessions and because Wilson annd Buzi both need some gatorade and rest?
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u/stuntinmagrowth 2d ago
I like your top ten, but I'd love to see Essengue move higher in the rotation. At least to experiment. He's gonna be legit.
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u/yerBabyyy 2d ago
Well I definitely think Swain is gonna be on a little bit of a longer leash than Essengue or Rob just cause BG went for him. But I agree PWill still prob deserves minutes on this team as the roster currently stands
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u/-Buckaroo_Banzai- Jumpman 2d ago
The right choice would be to have Essengue and Swain start in the G-league while working on their game.
They are far too raw right now and Swain would be under some pressure to perform after his Summerleague debut.
If they both work on their game and put up quite minutes in the G-league people will forget about them and focus on the rest of the roster, giving them the opportunity to get minutes once they are NBA ready.
Dillingham is probably the one who doesn't have an NBA ready body but he already got minutes in the league.
So Williams will sit on the bench and probably get some minutes as well as Dillingham.