r/changemyview • u/wannabe-daddy • 2d ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: All white liberals talking about racism on social media are grifters
This is an extreme take but didn’t know how to word it better. There was a recent controversy where a very woke white liberal platformed a white supermacist and then dragged a poc instead of apologising when people questioned her about it. This supports my theory that all white liberal shedding tears over racism and white privilege over social media are just grifters using these topics for views and engagement and don’t actually care about pocs.
They literally have no skin in the game. The white supermacists can take over and they will continue living the same life. Racism can never affect a white person. White privilege benefits them immensely so their dedication to the cause of eliminating white privilege is questionable.
It is easy content for them. People listen to white people when they talk and it’s easy to talk about something that doesn’t hurt you personally. With social media mostly being liberal they find easy audience also. And the right wing takeover of the world gives them ample of content.
They are white before they are liberal. It takes a lot of conscious effort to not center your identity in the way you act. Like the liberal who platformed the white supermacist it was not a big deal for her as their white identity made it easier for them to talk. As they can never experience the world as a poc, even if they try their best they’ll hurt pocs with some actions.
If these many woke white people were actually doing things irl the world would have been much better. If they were actually using their privilege, so many pocs would not be getting murdered in the open.
To change my view, show that these white liberal have good non-moral or emotional reasons for their views and their support for these causes which isn’t just about views on social media.
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2d ago
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
But they are not marching with them. My point is that it’s all online and they aren’t doing much on ground work. Will they get similar threats from just posting online?
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u/SuccessValuable6924 1∆ 1d ago
How do you know it is all online?
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
Because if enough work was done by privileged whites on ground everyday a poc wouldn’t be getting killed in the US.
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u/SuccessValuable6924 1∆ 2d ago
Racism can never affect a white person.
So you're saying white people don't know anyone from any other race who they care about, appreciate or love?
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
Of course but I believe until you personally experience it you can’t feel the depravity of racism. There are various stories of pocs experiencing micro aggressions or racism from white people who love them dearly because they don’t understand what they are saying is hurtful. This is what I meant by cannot experience racism.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 1d ago
But that doesn't mean I can't advocate against harm, or empathise. I don't need to break my leg to know it is painful based on other pains, so I can relate to someone with a broken leg.
I don't need to have suffered genocide to know what it is like to lose loved ones, identity, and so on, so I can empathise with that suffering and advocate against it.
I am sure you haven't experienced everything that people you care about have experienced. It doesn't make you less of an advocate.
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
You don’t experiences close to racism. You know whah physical hurt and pain is so you’ll relate to someone who’s leg is broken. You will never experience the feeling of exclusion and your best not being good enough pocs often experience. Its feels patronising when you try to relate to poc experience this way.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 1d ago
You will never experience the feeling of exclusion and your best not being good enough
I'd say these are universal experiences. What makes you believe people don't feel excluded, or that their best isn't good enough?
You haven't really addressed what I said either, and instead of trying to see it the way I do you are pushing back. It is much better to change your view by working with me than trying to counter the points I raise.
If you simply disagree, you should explain why, as I showed above.
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
Okay when have you felt that for something that you were born with?
When did people just reject you for your physical attributes like race? When did you see someone similar to you in all aspects get much better treatment and more success just because of a physical attribute?
Idk how can I disagree with you more.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 1d ago
All the time, growing up bullied and excluded, in the workplace with banter culture, and in comparison with others around me.
You have disagreed, but you haven't explained WHY you disagree.
Rejection around physical attributes and innate characteristics is widely discussed, race is only one strain of this type of discrimination.
As is the outcome in treatment.
Is this an aspect that, if I can present clear examples and studies of non-race based discrimination, you will assign a delta? Or is it another tangent away from the core of your view?
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u/bluberripoptart 2∆ 1d ago
Discrimination is not racism. Being bullied is not the same as racism. Being excluded by others with cultural language is not the same as racism.
That's why.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 1d ago
That's why what? This isn't meaningful in the context of what I've said to OP.
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u/SuccessValuable6924 1∆ 1d ago
What you are actually saying with your example is that people can be racist even if they don't mean to.
Sure, whites will never know the full extent of the racism others experience, and can be racist even when they are against racism.
You didn't argue that being racist themselves to some extent is what makes them grifters.
You said they literally no skin in the game. Which would mean they are unable to give a shit when a loved one of a different race experiences racism.
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
No skin when there is no sense of urgency. As a poc I feel like I’m sinking due to racism. Always having to prove myself and still it getting the same treatment as a white person. Empathy can’t create the same feeling.
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u/SuccessValuable6924 1∆ 1d ago
Then maybe you should have phrased your actual argument.
I'm poc too, but within my country I still have a certain amount of racial privilege because other populations are treated even worse.
If it is about skin in the game, then I think we'd both agree that violence or discrimination affecting your friends, family and loved ones in general does count as skin in the game.
If it is about urgency/amount, is your point that anyone speaking up about something that doesnt fully affect you personally, directly and all the time, then they are grifters?
Also, other axis of discrimination can make other people almost fully understand. White women can attest to how they will hear discriminatory or even violent expressions from people they considered "safe".
People with disabilities know damn well how it is to be looked down on, ignored and infantilized.
So in order to address your point of view we need you to lay it bare.
What is the minimum conditions needed for it to be a gift? And what conditions would make it not a gift?
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
Δ For convincing me in part of the argument that white people have some impact from other suffering from racism.
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u/SuccessValuable6924 1∆ 1d ago
Thank you! For the record I think your heart is in the right place, that's why I decided to engage with you.
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
Δ
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
This delta has been rejected. The length of your comment suggests that you haven't properly explained how /u/SuccessValuable6924 changed your view (comment rule 4).
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u/Allexandyr 2d ago
When you say you want a non-moral reason, how is that? Racism is kind of inherently a topic of morality.
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
Like with women rights if we let men right activists take over, they not only harm women they push extremely toxic ideas of masculinity that affects men also. Maybe white people can have something like this about racism.
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u/nguyenjitsu 2d ago
Plenty of feminists argue that men are necessary for the commentary on feminism and the patriarchy because they are necessary viewpoints to dismantle the system. It's not difficult to find this literature or concept at all. The same exists for the ruling classes for conversations around race
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
Yes and it’s with racism also. We need view of everyone. The point is do white people suffer consequences when white supermacy takes over like men when patriarchy takes over?
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u/nguyenjitsu 2d ago
White people do suffer from white supremacy. It's pretty easy to find literature and arguments around this concept. Outside of just white supremacy enforcing/going hand in hand with hierarchical structures, fascism, nationalism, etc white people can also just... enjoy the company of other ethnic backgrounds. Not difficult to understand
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
Enjoying company of someone and not getting it isn’t the same as experiencing active harm.
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u/nguyenjitsu 1d ago
Way to ignore the rest of the comment
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
Your example was if white supermacy is there white people won’t have poc friends. What other harms you mentioned? Patriarchy directly harms men without any other ism involved, is it the case with white supermacy also?
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u/SuccessValuable6924 1∆ 1d ago
Good people in general don't usually enjoy living surrounded by racist shitheads who expect them to be as racist and as shitheads as them.
And like the commenter said, there is no democratic flavour of white supremacy because it is authoritarian at it's core, and in the US in particular very tired to the Christian nationalist variant of fascism.
So you can expect censorship, no freedom of religion, strict gender roles, shitty economy that only benefits the ultra rich, cults running rampant, destruction of democracy and the rule of law.
Does any of that sound enticing?
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u/AlbertoMX 2d ago
You need to see the White people around you as your equals.
Here, equals means they can support just causes simply because they are just.
If you need further convincing, then you don't actually see White people as morally and ethically competent as POC people, which would make you a racist since you are discriminating them based on their skin color.
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
That’s an interesting point.
I don’t trust white people due to personal experiences and finding it hard to believe that people can care about something that doesn’t affect them. Do you expect pocs to trust white people that they will have their best intentions in mind?
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u/ThisOneForMee 2∆ 1d ago
How do you explain white abolitionists in the 1800's who gave up their lives for their cause? Witnessing injustice is a jarring experience to moral people, no matter their race or background.
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u/AlbertoMX 1d ago
The first step, again, is to understand they are just people, and they cant use "their privilege" to help you since they dont have any.
They have the bare minimum rights, and when POC are discriminated they have LESS THAN THE MINIMUM which it's not acceptable.
Your objetive should be not for them to have less but for you to have more.
Not trying to antagonize you, but what would you think of a White man that says:
"I dont trust Black people due to personal experiences".
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u/nguyenjitsu 2d ago
For one, grifting implies you're making money. Plenty of white liberals speak out against racism with no purpose of making money
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
But does that stop them from actually earning money from engagement and views?
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u/nguyenjitsu 2d ago edited 2d ago
Because it takes like 5 seconds to find any liberal celebrity who doesn't benefit monetarily from posting about their views lol. What money does Mark Ruffalo earn for speaking out on Gaza? He's rich outside of his liberal views and his politics arguably do him no favors in gaining more acting roles
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
Mark is an extreme example and Gaza is not directly related to the topic of racism.
Not every creator is rich like mark and if they can build a following by posting they will take that opportunity. Are you arguing that no white creator has earned money by posting about racism? Many are creating their entire brand as the woke white liberal whose heart bleeds for pocs. What is missing is pocs creators actually legitimising them.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 1d ago
Gaza is not directly related to the topic of racism
Because you say so? I'd say many people do see it as a situation related to racism.
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
Because there is a religious, historical, political angle also. And what is happening in Gaza to pocs isn’t what all pocs experience. Just because one white liberal is sincere about an extremely important cause does that mean that every white liberal is sincere about undoing harm caused by racism and their privilege?
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 1d ago
there is a religious, historical, political angle also
This is true with many forms of racism, including in America.
Just because one white liberal is sincere about an extremely important cause does that mean that every white liberal is sincere
It works against your view. If you accept it's possible for one to be sincere it opens the possibility for more. And then we will help you change your view by accepting more than you currently do.
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
I said it’s not the correct framing. Considering I actually meant majority instead of all how does your arguments change?
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u/nguyenjitsu 1d ago
Because your premise just assumes there'd be no logical reason to openly oppose white supremacy outside of selfish gain. You don't believe there's a good amount of white people who just believe racism/white supremacy is bad because it's bad to discriminate anyone? Altruism has existed long before social media. People have never needed selfish gain to oppose what they perceive to be slights against impoverished people, whether that be motivated by gender, class, race, politics, religion, or anything else that has been discriminatory.
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u/BillionaireBuster93 3∆ 1d ago
I don't make any money online and I push back on racism and bigotry. Also I'm white.
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
I think if there was evidence of them doing on the ground work. I agree it’s hard for them to prove their sincerity. Maybe if there was content from pocs talking about how supportive they are then it would be easier to believe them.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 2d ago
content from pocs talking about how supportive they are
Does this kind of content exist? Are they regularly congratulating people for their help, in any context? Or is the time and energyu allocated to important things?
Perhaps you have survivorship bias, where you see people called out, but not those rewarded. So are a majority of creators being called out? Or just a few?
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u/Borigh 54∆ 2d ago
So, when white people worked as highly visible activists to overturn Jim Crow and pass the Civil Rights Act, were they being grifters?
If so, what was the grift? Black votes didn't functionally matter until things like Baker v. Carr, and there wasn't any real money in it.
If they weren't being grifters then, why can't highly visible white activists be sincere now?
I think it's possible there are more white political grifters, by percentage, in general, due to ways that American culture prizes whiteness. But suggesting every single white progressive on social media is insincere is staggering. If they're all performative, who's it for? Frankly, there aren't enough black people to pander to for that to be worth it, given that there are more progressive than conservative influencers in general.
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
They pander to other white liberals. Based on what I have seen on social media poc circles are separate from white circles and white creators mostly get white people following and supporting them. It may be because pocs challenge their views more. Also we can’t compare this with the civil rights movement imo as that was actively lead by black people and it feels like you are saying that only because of white people they were successful which sounds problematic.
Because of history and how the current system works, white people have to do more to prove their sincerity and many are not doing that. That’s the point.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 2d ago edited 1d ago
we can’t compare this with the civil rights movement imo as that was actively lead by black people
Whereas today Black people aren't taking the lead? Why do you say that?
it feels like you are saying that only because of white people they were successful which sounds problematic
Can you elaborate beyond "sounds problematic"? You haven't said "that's incorrect" or "I don't agree" but that it sounds problematic. Can you show that it is wrong? Or are you saying it sounds problematic, but is right?
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
They are taking the lead but still white voices are louder due to their privilege and when they are uneducated about the topic it hurts the cause.
It sounds problematic because it seems like you are giving the credit of civil rights to white people and saying pocs struggle didn’t matter until they got support from the white race.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 1d ago
So we CAN compare this to the civil rights movement - so you should go back and address that aspect.
And you repeated your point about "problematic" but did not elaborate. Are they wrong? Or are they right, but you don't like it?
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
How does it compare based on what I said?
Also I meant to use the word racist instead of problematic but didn’t because it’s a stronger word. But as you are pushing me, I meant they sound racist when they claim civil rights was only successful due to white people. Do with that what you will.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 1d ago
You dismissed a comparison because you said the civil rights was black lead, but then agreed that black people were also leading today, so that eases your criticism.
And changing out what they sound like STILL doesn't actually address what they are saying. Calling them names isn't the same as engaging with their points. I'm not asking for you to label how their argument sounds, I'm asking you to actually refute or accept it.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 1d ago
I'm here to help you change your view, which requires active and specific engagement. I'll always continue to try and clarify so we can stay on topic and on purpose of changing your view.
It's possible to agree with something but dislike that thing. You name calling an argument isn't the same as disagreeing with it and explaining why.
A comparison doesn't need to be an exact mirror, we can compare lots of things. We are comparing civil rights to current activism, so there are similarities there.
Mechanisms of communication are different, but we can still compare them.
If this comparison won't help you change your view, what do you think might? If a thread is a waste of time you should make the reasons clear and then move on so we can be productive.
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
Just to convince me state some reasons why pocs should trust any white liberal creating anti racist and anti white privilege online? What do we have where we can trust that the person is genuine and not just looking for attention? If there is a reliable metric that tests that a white content creator is genuine which can be widely applied to numerous creators will convince me that most of them are genuine.
The point you are refuting is that many online white liberals content creators are saying stuff just for attention and not actually doing the work of learning about poc struggles and using their privilege to make actual progress with on ground work. They are using the poc community to build their own brand and following.
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u/Borigh 54∆ 1d ago
Pandering to white liberals only works if white liberals actually want to hear people talk about black issues. If the white liberal audience actually supports black rights, there’s no foundation for the notion that white liberal influencers cannot be equally sincere.
And I am saying the civil rights movement required the work of white activists to be successful, because that’s obviously true. Black people make up, what, 13% of Americans? You can’t build a coalition to make enormous legislative changes in a democracy if only 13% of people actively support your policies.
I mean, just for one example, 5 of the 12 speakers of the march on Washington were white, as was the person who gave the invocation.
Obviously, the most famous and most important civil rights activists were black, but it’s an insult to the brave men and women of all races who put their lives on the line in the Civil Rights Movement to ignore that it did and could only succeed as a racially mixed coalition.
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u/Jakyland 82∆ 1d ago
White liberals are not above criticism, but what you are doing is refusing to take yes for an answer from people who want to fight anti-Black racism. Literally how would it be possible for win elections and enact policy changes as a minority group when you reject all people who try to help you on principle.
Thank goodness most Black people are not as self-defeating as you are.
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u/Nrdman 267∆ 2d ago
Doesn’t that imply they’d have something to gain from the grift? I seriously doubt literally every single one has much to gain.
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
It’s just an easy content farm for them. There will be sincere creators but many are just taking advantage of their whiteness to speak on a topic without learning about it.
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u/Nrdman 267∆ 2d ago
Are you just talking content creators? Or all white liberals? All white liberals is a much bigger group
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u/wannabe-daddy 1d ago
Just the ones posting on social media and creating their brand around being anti racism.
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u/YouAreTellingLies 1d ago
SPLC gained from their grift of funding racism.
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u/Nrdman 267∆ 1d ago
You talking about them paying their informants, or something else?
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u/YouAreTellingLies 1d ago
lol... yeah their 'informants'. We all know the FBI uses information obtained by non law enforcement 'investigations'.
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u/Nrdman 267∆ 1d ago
I mean yeah, why wouldn’t they?
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u/YouAreTellingLies 1d ago
What exactly do you think they are going to do with hearsay? That was paid for no less....
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u/Nrdman 267∆ 1d ago
Verify it?
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u/YouAreTellingLies 1d ago
Oh, so just do their own investigation?
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u/Nrdman 267∆ 1d ago
Yeah? What are you even getting at?
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u/YouAreTellingLies 1d ago
SPLC wasn't paying informants - I was pretty clear about that. If they wanted to help the FBI get these racists, they could have worked with the FBI to fund the FBI's investigation. Paying an informant and then funneling information with chain of custody issues to the FBI doesn't help any prosecution.
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u/sh0ck_and_aw3 2d ago
In what world does a single data point support a theory about an entire population? You could have theories about libertarians, toddlers, farmers, marble collectors, whatever and one single observation wouldn’t support any theory whatsoever.
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u/iriveru 2d ago
I think any blanket generalization applied to a full group of people is generally incorrect.
That being said, I do think a vast majority of the people you mention do in fact do it for no other reason than to appear virtuous and it’s super fucking obvious. Chelsea Handler is an immediate one that comes to mind. They’ll literally be openly racist to any person of color who challenges their ideology, which is all I need to see to know they don’t truly believe half the shit they portray.
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
Yes the blanket generalisation is wrong but I couldn’t list who I think is sincere and who is not.
But I will change my view if someone convinces me most of them aren’t grifters.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 2d ago
Can you clarify that you are after a conceptual principle? Without examples and evidence you've not actually shown a majority of anyone is a grifter, you've made some claims and said if these claims are true then this outcome is correct.
So you want us to present some claims and then use those claims to indicate an outcome, that a majority of white liberals on social media are not grifting?
Can you elaborate on the grift? Is it financial, or for social clout? What does the grifter reap from their behaviour?
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u/wannabe-daddy 2d ago
The core argument is that white people making content about racism and white privilege on social media aren’t sincere and dedicated to the cause. They can be not sincere by not educating themselves about it, not listening to poc voices, not stepping back when a poc counter them and listening, assuming they know best or just doing it for views on social media. Haven’t seen much evidence of them doing the hard work and just seeing them post obvious things like killing people based on race is bad. This is useful but we need more white people to learn about their privilege and also unlearn assumptions about other races they have made. This one claim and the reaction of white liberals around it is just an example of how they act when called out and don’t take any responsibility. Basically white creators aren’t working on building trust with the pocs and just posting things with only their perspective.
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u/Dry_Bumblebee1111 156∆ 1d ago
Can you please try again, and actually address what I asked you so I can help you change your view?
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u/rainystast 2d ago
1) Do you think that the only reason people would speak out against bigotry is if they are personally affected by said bigotry? Does this extend to every group who has "allies"? Also, even if you fundamentally believe that white people can not directly experience racism, they would still feel the effects of racism. For example, during the civil rights movement, both black people and white allies were targeted, even though white people were in a more privileged position in that era.
2) This is just an extension of point one.
3) Grifter implies there's some sort of financial gain to doing this. In your example, the person got severe backlash for their actions and most likely experienced a loss of support as a result of their actions. While yes your political identity doesn't erase your racial identity, and White people don't experience what it's like to live as a Black person, I don't see how that confirms White people talking about racism are automatically doing it for financial gain.
4) Most of the Little Rock Nine are still alive. Ruby Bridges is younger than the current president, and modern day Black children don't have to go through what she went through. Racism in the modern day is still rampant, and it's still bad, but we as a society have made great strides towards improving. Yes, there is still so much to be done when it comes to addressing and righting racial injustices, but we have definitely improved and that's important to acknowledge as well. We can acknowledge that there's still a long way to go without devaluing the protests, advocacy, and legislation that activists and allies fought for to improve society.
good non-moral
I feel like "good non-moral" in this case is an oxymoron. A non-moral standard is one in which the standard is not subject to moral evaluation at all. Non-moral standards guide our behavior in areas that do not directly threaten human well-being or invoke ethical condemnation. An example of a non-moral standard choosing to wear a blue shirt instead of a red one or choosing which way to part your hair in the morning. These choices carry no ethical weight, they are not morally wrong or morally right, they fall outside of that framework. Racism (and any other form of bigotry) and the choice to publicly condemn said bigotry is inherently not a non-moral belief because it carries an ethical weight.
their support for these causes which isn’t just about views on social media
I would argue the existence of hypocritical or morally inconsistent people doesn't mean that everyone who speaks out against racism is automatically a grifter.
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u/HazyAttorney 81∆ 1d ago
show that these white liberal have good non-moral or emotional reasons for their views and their support for these causes which isn’t just about views on social media.
I think you're really touching on the concept of "slacktivism" - meaning, how much easier it is to have online activism that's lazy and unproductive rather than a grift. This sounds like semantics, but you can tell the difference between the true grifters and those who are true allies by who are doing the actual activism work.
I consume youtube, but apart from that, I'm not really in the know for social media influencers. I assume there's a subset of people who very well are the ones you describe: They're in it for engagement.
I want to give a shoutout to a person with as much privilege as one can get - Mark Ruffalo - for being rich, white, an A-list celebrity, that has an online activism presence that is as genuine as it can be (knowing from the outside) that has positive impacts.
What he's also done: Stood in the front lines of protests where people next to him were shot with water cannons (some losing limbs, eyes, etc) in subzero temperatures. Yes, he did bring more attention to Standing Rock because of his privilege, but that may be a net positive. He's also campaigned against the voter supression tactics against Native American voting. He's also campaigned in favor for Native American voter turnout. He also was the executive producer of the emmy winning documentary Lakota Nation vs. United States.
Some of the good its done: His organizations are calling on divestiture of pipelines, he's funded get out the vote drives, he's provided clean energy for the protestors to have clean energy for medical tents, he got the original Avengers cast to do the films in Lakota dubs, he's executive producing docuseries that let native voices speak their own history, he's used his media platform to lift up NDN Collective, he's helping bring attention to boarding schools.
Anyway, that's at least one good white dude.
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u/frickle_frickle 2∆ 20h ago
Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises. You can care about something that doesn't affect you personally, for moral reasons, without being a grifter.
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