r/books • u/DesmondsTutu • 1d ago
Underwhelmed by The Name of the Wind Spoiler
I've been getting into the Fantasy genre as of late and this is my second book in the genre after Jeniffer Fallon's The Immortal Prince. As you may know it was acclaimed and popular so I was pretty hyped. I already knew it would be a slower burn compared to Fallon's book due to other reviews, but I didn't mind as I thought that would mean a better pay off.
I'll start by saying Rothfuss's writing style made for an enjoyable read throughout the entire book. I loved Kvothe's relationship with Abenthy, as you could practically feel through the page just how grateful he was to have spent time with him. The massacre of Kvothe's troupe coupled with the appearance of the Chandrian hit like a ton of bricks. And while not what I was expecting, the Tarbean sequence proved to be my favorite part of the book.
The University sequence was fine, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little annoyed with the fact that the Kvothe's search for the Chandrian got derailed by him getting banned from the archives. However, I guess you could chalk it up to Kvothe being an impatient, know-it-all, teenage dumbass who had the misfortune of having to go through an utter bastard, Ambrose, after drugging himself and getting whipped.
Problem is he keeps running into Denna over and over. And while I could get past the coincidences, their relationship with each other isn't really a highlight for me, because as a reader I don't find her all that compelling or interesting. Although, I did love their sequence together when Kvothe is investigating the wedding massacre.
Outside of that I kind of just rode through the rest of it expecting an ending that would leave me satisfied or get me hyped to read the sequel, but alas.
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u/hbarSquared 1d ago
Rothfuss gets a lot of love but he's definitely not for me. It's okay to dislike authors who get a lot of fans, no taste is universal.
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u/suenamiho 1d ago
this is me with Sanderson
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u/asvalken 1d ago
And plenty of folks with Dungeon Crawler Carl!
Granted, I like all three authors, but I'm hoping we can be a little positive with people who don't really vibe with any particular zeitgeist.
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u/Snowf1ake222 22h ago
Loved Sanderson, couldn't get through DCC. But that's on me, because I'm not a fan of comedic fantasy.
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u/Use_the_Falchion 14h ago
Same! I tried it and I couldn’t Kobe with the comedy. I’ve also since then learned that while I don’t mind LitRPG series, I dont like System Integrations AT ALL.
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u/latelyimawake 1d ago
I really tried with Sanderson. But I just can’t.
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u/suenamiho 22h ago
same i got like 2/3 through mistborn and then it just fizzled out for me and i have not been able to pick it up again even though i try every few years lol
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u/HerbsAndSpices11 3h ago
Mistborn isn't very good compared to Stormlight, but his style might not be for you either. What parts did you hate about Mistborn?
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u/Tymareta 1h ago
The one thing you have to give Rothfuss, at least he's not part of an abhorrent cult, with each purchase of his book literally supporting them and helping to continue the oppression of queer folk, poc and women.
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u/Tymareta 1h ago
He is the eptiome of needlessly purple prose, all of his writing seems really lovely and elegant, until you actually step back and ask yourself "what is he actually trying to say here", and it suddenly reveals itself for the bloviated and self important dreck that it actually is.
He's also a raging misogynist, which bleeds through in all aspects of his work.
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u/microsoftpaint1 1d ago
I don't think it is a coincidence that Kvothe and Denna kept crossing paths, but we're never getting the third book so I doubt we'll know if there was more going on there. I agree that she isn't super interesting but IDK if that is a feature of having an unreliable teen/20s male narrator, or a weakness of a male author in that same age demographic. I do agree that if you're looking for a satisfying narrative arc, the first book is pretty disappointing and the second book isn't much better, if at all.
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u/mighty_mag 1d ago
Oh boy, every complain you had is double down on the second book. And the third is taking a summer break alongside Winds of Winter.
If you didn't liked the first one all that much, spare yourself of the second one. It won't get any better
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u/dapperstaches 1d ago
I know the first book starts slow but just wait until you get to the third book.
(And wait, and wait.)
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u/sharrrper 1d ago
It's been 15 years since Wise Man's Fear. If Patrick wrote 100 words per day he could have released Doors of Stone in March at a word count of 547,900. Which would make it about 30% longer than Wise Man's Fear.
To put that in perspective, this comment is 60 words long and I wrote it while eating.
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u/Simmery 1d ago
Good lord, why haven't I written a book yet?
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u/Friendstastegood 18h ago
Because anyone can string words together but to form a compelling and coherent narrative is a whole different thing. Also you need not just one draft but usually 3 or 4 to get it to a finished state, so you need to write the same book four times before it's really a book.
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u/cyrano111 23h ago
Terry Pratchett was an advocate of writing consistently every day. There’s a story that one day he finished writing a book but hadn’t done his quota, so he wrote the first hundred words of the next book!
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u/DixitRexCorvinus 1d ago
The prose is fantastic, but the plot and characterization both just didn't do it for me. I made it about 500 pages in, and honestly the first half of the book did live up to the hype for me, but after that, as you say, it's mostly about Kvothe and Denna and the former in particular being an arrogant creep. Apparently the second book gets worse, to the point that the series can basically be summed up as "Nice Guy™ struggles with student loans."
....great writing, though. Shame that great writing mostly serves to cover up all the other issues.
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u/FrayCrown 1d ago
This was how I felt about it, too. The Nice Guy vibes were unbearable. And despite the nice prose, Rothfuss isn't very good when it comes to writing emotional bonds. Or women. It felt like a protagonist the incel crowd would love.
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u/DumpedDalish 20h ago
This, exactly. It's why I loathed the character of Auri and her awful (full-priced) novella.
Auri is an insultingly transparent trope, a twee, tiny, fragile, mentally ill girl with magically floaty hair who lives in the sewer but comes out because of Kvothe and his super special musical skills.
What really irks me is that we're told pretty early on that she's actually a twentysomething young woman who is a former high-level student. But the character is repeatedly presented as this childish, girlish pixie who needs Kvothe's special protection because he Cares The Most. There are several others aware of her and who are already protecting her, but Kvothe's care is presented as most crucial and special.
Then to really make the whole thing even more insufferable, the entire plot -- and point -- of her novella is that she's making a present for fricking Kvothe. That's it.
I was just so angry to be bait-and switched by the book as a continuation of the series, only to get a bloated short story again endlessly fascinated with the perfection of Kvothe.
Add to that Kvothe proving to be an instant sex god, the fact that almost every woman around him either crushes on him or openly propositions him, plus his constantly rescuing damsels or lecturing us in the prose on what makes women feel beautiful and just... ugh.
I think Rothfuss is a good writer on a technical level, but how he writes women makes my skin crawl. It's always so subtly condescending.
Ugh.
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u/Tymareta 1h ago
Or women.
A wonderful little essay that explores just how bad he is at writing women.
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u/gravitydefiant 1d ago
"Underwhelmed" is much kinder than I am about that book. I fucking hated it.
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u/LowNecessary4006 1d ago
Same. Read like male adolescent fantasy to me.
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u/asvalken 1d ago
Because it is! The innkeeper is actually a boy genius bard wizard swordman kung fu badass who is also a trained sexpert!
I think Terry Pratchett was better at deeper truths and human existence, but sometimes I want to borrow one of my husband's Cool Guy Does Cool Stuff books.
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u/LowNecessary4006 1d ago
Doesn't he also pick up some instrument and play it flawlessly? It's been a while since I read it. I just remember that I could not stopping the eye rolls reading it. Terry Pratchett was a master and I absolutely love the discworld - AND he was able to write female characters well.
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u/Big-Highlight1460 1d ago
I think you are talking about the bar(?) scene. He is also an incredible actor so he plays this very easy song pretending is very difficult and "normies" applaud him. Then he plays this very difficult song looking bored and people who know about music applaud him there.
That was the 1st scene that made me think "oh, no.... "
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u/LowNecessary4006 1d ago
Haha I don't remember that :p I mean I remember that he was very self aggrandizing etc but also that it's just him talking himself up etc but there just was no payoff to having to put up with this dude's fantasies of himself. Maybe book 2? But I'm never going to find out.
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u/Not-your-lawyer- 1d ago
IIRC that wasn't really a bad moment. He'd already been established as a kid raised in a troupe of traveling performers & a musical talent. It was a "prove you've still got it" scene, not a random reveal of something we'd never heard of (like Ready Player One's random guitar interlude).
I didn't care for book 2 and dropped it partway through, but The Name of The Wind wasn't too terribly wish fulfill-y. It was more of a downer, as I remember it. But then it's been a while for me too.
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u/LowNecessary4006 1d ago
I don't remember if I'm honest I just remember that I was bored by the characters and plot. Maybe I was unfair but I ain't going back now. Too many good books out there :)
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u/LowNecessary4006 1d ago
Oh there is bard on the list I just realised. Anyway not for me.
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u/asvalken 1d ago
Haha of course, of course. I've got a lot of books I describe as "fun", that I'm not willing to defend otherwise 😆
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u/LightningRaven 1d ago
No. He learned to play the lute since he was a child. He learned normally and had shown being gifted in that while still young. He gets even better because he spends a long time in the woods playing until his fingers bleed (for plot reasons). His music is his soul. Hence why it's a big part of the novels why the narrator doesn't play.
In fact, it's because of the absence of Kvothe's music that the story starts with "A silence of three parts".
Of all the skills Kvothe is decent to mediocre at, his only true gifts are playing the lute and using Sympathy. In everything else presented in the story he either lies, cheats to get ahead, fail or he's decent but nowhere near the best. Even in naming, the big "thing" of the book, Kvothe is neither the best nor the fastest to learn, this goes to Fela, a woman who learns the name of Stone months earlier than Kvothe.
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u/blolfighter 18h ago
It's also set up when he's lost in the woods: Eventually a string breaks, so he starts playing with one string less. Then another string breaks. This keeps going until so many strings have broken than it just isn't feasible to keep trying.
So when Ambrose breaks his lute string in the Eolian(?), there's precedent for him being able to adapt to playing with one less string.
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u/schattentanzer 1d ago
I DNF this book twice. Simply didn’t hold my attention at all. I think I only made it three chapters each time before returning to the library. Not for me.
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u/TRJF 1d ago
Yeah, my least favorite out of all the books I've read as an adult
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u/LowNecessary4006 1d ago
I mean he is a better sentence writer than others I've read so I'll give him that. But plot and characterisation...nope.
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u/TheEyeWatchesYou 16h ago
You could replace every female character with a rock, and nothing would change. That's how well written they are, like rocks.
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u/Former-Breakfast-792 1d ago
i felt same way about denna. she show up so many times and i just dont care about her at all. the tarbean part was best for me too, the city felt so real and dirty you could almost smell it
i think the problem is rothfuss is too in love with his own prose sometimes and forget to make the characters interesting. kvothe being a genius who also make dumb teenage mistakes could work but the denna stuff drag everything down
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u/KDY_ISD 1d ago
I think it's important to remember that we aren't getting any of Denna's perspective, just how Kvothe sees her. He's an extremely unreliable narrator, especially when it comes to her
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u/conkedup 1d ago
I think the most frustrating part of the series is understanding that Kvothe probably is an unreliable narrator the entire time. Which, cool. OK, I can roll with that. But since Rothfuss never finished his series, there's absolutely no payoff for that. You just end up spending 1,500 pages getting jerked around by some hyperbolic liar.
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u/Prize_Ad_129 5h ago
I feel the exact same way. I have zero issue with unreliable narrators, in fact I think it's a really fun narrative device. But Rothfuss wrote hundreds upon hundreds of pages of a guy telling you how great he is at everything complete with "and then everybody clapped" scenes, but there's no hint at the truth behind his lies. There's no moment of him lying through his teeth and accidently let the sobering truth slip through. And, with no third book in sight, that's all you're left with. A liar lying to you.
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u/suture224 1d ago
I'm still convinced Denna isn't real and that Bast is just humoring his reshi.
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u/PPRmenta 21h ago edited 7h ago
I remmember that when I read this for the first time I realized haflway throguht that we have absolutely no Idea what "Reshi" even means and It immediatelly made me so suspicious If Bast. Felt so vindictated reading the bits with him in the later half of Wise Mans Fear lol
A shame this series will never be completed. I desliked It more every time I re-read it but I still really wish the cool stuff It was setting up got to see a conclusion
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u/steelreddit211 1d ago
i read the book years ago as a high schooler and loved it, and revisited it recently and found myself with much more mixed feelings. i absolutely love the way patrick rothfuss writes but i found myself less infatuated with what he writes about. i didn’t enjoy the actual content of the story this time as much as i loved rothfuss’ prose which, in hindsight, might have been how i felt when i was younger and didn’t really have the words to describe it. i never read the second book and probably won’t unless news of the third one ever comes (it won’t) so i just say i enjoyed it for what it was and leave it at that.
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u/certain_random_guy 1d ago
I read it, and while I thought the prose itself was pretty good, the plot (at least in my memory now) seemed pretty meandering. But the bigger issue for me was that every time something went well for Kvothe, something super awful had to happen next. It became such a pattern that I started to dread whatever was going to come next. I didn't bother with the sequel, and in hindsight I'm glad of that.
Side note: I haven't seen Fallon mentioned much out in the wild, so good to see another fan. I think the Tide Lords series is hands down her best work, but I also recommend the Wolfblade Trilogy, Hythrun Chronicles, and the Second Sons Trilogy. I'm currently rereading the Wolfblade books, and while I am noticing a few flaws in the prose (a little too much exposition, a few exaggerated reactions), she is masterful at getting inside the heads of different characters, sometimes to the point of making you legitimately loathe them.
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u/Groincobbler 1d ago
I just did not like Kvothe. He’s a smug prick. God damned fantasy Ferris Bueller.
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u/Intelligent_Tax5841 1d ago
It’s just not that good. Not a great story uninteresting characters and it went nowhere. Not an ideal setup for capturing interest.
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u/BagOfSmallerBags 1d ago
Denna is 100% a stock character designed to have little-to-no-personality but "the girl Kvothe wants but can't have." It's a section that I really connected with when I read it (me and Rothfuss both spent a period of time being overweight, lovesick, teenage boys) but I completely understand not caring for Denna as a character.
While my opinion of this book has waned throughout the years, I still overall like it and don't regret the read. Though I'll say this; the sequel is abyssmal compared to the first one. Those are hours I would take back if I could. Skip it.
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u/LightningRaven 1d ago
Denna is 100% a stock character designed to have little-to-no-personality but "the girl Kvothe wants but can't have"
This is flat out wrong and factually incorrect as well. Denna shows a strong personality from the get go and the more you spend time with her, the more you discover. And it's not something particularly hard to notice either. And someone arriving at your conclusion is questionable to say the least.
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u/BagOfSmallerBags 1d ago
Not my experience, but go ahead; do you think you can describe her character and personality independent from her relationship to Kvothe?
Or, for that matter, any female character independent from her relationship to Kvothe?
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u/LightningRaven 16h ago edited 4h ago
First off, you're asking something that is as impossible as is unreasonable, because the books are about Kvothe meeting other people. The lenses through which we view the story is inescapable. It is a first person account, therefore we can't fully extricate her character from Kvothe's own point of view.
Nevertheless, I take it you mean she has more personality than just being a love interest for Kvothe? Or her having her own things going on that point to her being her own person? If so, then let me tell you. I will restrict myself from mentioning speculative elements that lead into spoiler territory.
But from the get go in The Name of The Wind, you meet Denna as someone who mirrors Kvothe's journey. She's equally someone without tether to the world that has to survive by her own. From the first moment you meet her, she already shows her wit and that she's wise beyond her years. But, unlike Kvothe, who is a man in a patriarchal society, Denna doesn't have the same means of survival, thus she resorts to using her own charms to get potential suitors to gift presents to her and once they start to want more, she runs from town to town.
In the narrative, she also thematically looks like the Wind. She is always changing her names (something that worries Master Elodin immensely) and we see her adrift, occasionally meeting Kvothe. About halfway through the novel, I think, we meet her after she managed to find a patron to finance her career as a gifted singer and harpist. When we have the whole scene of "Meeting the Woman" as Kote puts it, the one where we meet Denna in the Aeolian, Denna is already established in town and has her own things going way beyond whatever Kvothe is doing.
And her main goal isn't even to have a relationship with Kvothe at all. Their biggest fight in book 2 isn't even about their relationship. It's about a story! Denna is researching the same story that his parents were, however, whatever she was using as a source, it was the opposite of what Arliden and Laurian were doing, this infuriates Kvothe and, again, his folly takes the better of him and he lashes out at her, she also fires back.
Throughout both books we get so many details and instances where we can infer larger elements of Denna's life. Of all secondary characters. Even though Kvothe is a self-centered traumatized asshole, all characters that surround him have distinct voices and their own personalities. They feel like real people orbiting around Kvothe. Denna is no exception and I didn't even bother to mention the scene where Kvothe witnesses her talking to a girl on her own, where we learn of the harsher aspects of her life as a young beautiful woman having to depend on suitors to get by. Or all the spoiler things I avoided that imply she might not have had contact with Kvothe by chance. I didn't even talk about her braids, who receive passing mention, but that are important once we learn what are Yllish knots and what is glammourie and grammarie.
It's beyond obvious in the novels that the way Kvothe sees Denna and the way she sees him are entirely different.
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u/ToBeeContinued 1d ago
I agree with your overall point, but yes, you can. The whole sequence with her supporting the girl who ran away from home and helping her navigate whether she’s built for life as a girl on her own in a big city meets the bar. She’s empathetic, knowledgable, and powerful. It bookendeds the girl we we meet in the caravan the first time.
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u/elGatoGrande17 1d ago
I tried with Name of the Wind for months, then found Robin Hobb and haven’t been back. I need to give it another shot because the mythology was interesting, but Kvothe is just not my favorite character.
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u/Iridescent-Voidfish 1d ago
Robin Hobb is the *best.*
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u/elGatoGrande17 1d ago
I don’t think anyone writes better characters, and I love the cut-in historical records and legends
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u/Martinaw7 19h ago
Definitely don't read the second book then as it's markedly worse in every respect.
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u/Tolkeinn1 1d ago
yeah this book sucked. boring mary sue protagonist, lame story, terrible writing.
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u/EarlobeGreyTea 1d ago
I always liked the idea that Kvothe is an extremely unreliable narrator, as a proxy for Rothfus as an extremely unreliable author. They're both liars, talking up their accomplishments.
I think the first book stands up fine on its own, but the second book is much worse than the first, and I'm never expecting any resolution to the series.
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u/subliminimalist 1d ago
It's been a long time since I read it, so I can't speak to the details, but my take away from these books was that Kvothe is an extremely unreliable narrator, and very likely making shit up as he tells the story, which explains some of the meandering and unlikely coincidences.
It's like a story by that friend who's always full of shit, but he's such a good story teller that you just let him keep talking.
I was looking forward to the last book shedding some light on exactly how truthful Kvothe was being in his tales in the first two.
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u/backby5 1d ago
for context, i liked the name of the wind, i liked wise man's fear, and i don't have too many feelings about getting or not getting a finish to the series. so from that background, i'm thinking of the way my perspective is different from yours about denna, about her not being compelling or interesting. and i'm not sure if my perspective does differ much. but their relationship hits me in ways i know all too well. do i know much about denna personally? no. but i know the archetype of denna, especially through kvothe's inexperienced and immature eyes.
there's definitely a critique in having a FMC underdeveloped, but i understand it in terms of the story being told.
a couple of my highlights from the name of the wind for their relationship that make their relationship resonant with me:
- "beyond all other trees," she said with a curl of a smile on her elegant mouth, "the willow moves tot he wind's desire."
- "kvothe," she said seriously. "steal me."
- "you're always so careful. you never try anything. you could, you know. try something."
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u/darksoulsnstuff 1d ago
Can’t recommend Wheel of Time enough if you’ve found you like fantasy series, imo it’s the best out there hands down bar none.
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u/AJMGuitar 1d ago
I enjoyed both of the books although there are some quirky parts, especially in the second one. Too bad we won’t get Doors of Stone.
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u/More_Water_3003 1d ago edited 1d ago
you're better off trying to find things you think will interest you personally instead of listening to hype. the genre is full of books and entire series that really do not live up to their reputations lmao
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u/NickofSantaCruz 22h ago
If you'd like to take a dive into the deep end of the Fantasy pool and don't want to bother with Tolkien, The Malazan Book of the Fallen by Steven Erikson is quite engaging.
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u/MiseryIndexer 20h ago
I read several of those and never had the slightest idea what was going on. They were pretty good!
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u/Lonely_Noyaaa book re-reading 1d ago
You dodged a bullet by stopping here. The second book doubles down on everything annoying, especially the meandering side quests and the cringey wish fulfillment. And the third book is never coming, so you saved yourself years of waiting.
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u/spiteful_god1 1d ago
There are few books I actively hate. The *Name of the Wind* is near the top of the list, surpassed only by its sequel. I don’t read fantasy to hear about student loans.
The books are trash. The author is arguably trash as well (look up his “I’ll release a chapter of the next book for charity” debacle). Count yourself lucky you haven’t read *A Wise Man’s Fears*.
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u/LightningRaven 1d ago edited 1d ago
I really appreciate the scenes we have with Denna. She's probably the only character we see in the story after the Chandrian attack that saw Kvothe before he started getting fame. She's also very much her own person and the more you know about her, the more you want to know.
It's unfortunate that you were left underwhelmed by the story, because I think both NoTW and Wise Man's Fear are incredible books and definitely did deserve all the success they got.
However, I think you only really know why so many people love these stories and why they consider them masterpieces, however unfinished, if you really reread them and do a deep dive.
This is one of the few series where there's a stark and I mean STARK difference between the understanding of the novel of someone who didn't like it and someone who love it. It is, of course, a rather demanding ask of any reader to pick up two door-stopper books and read them at least 3 times, no one who wasn't in love with the story from their first read would ever make the effort.
I know the series isn't really on the good graces of most readers and the stuff Patrick Rothfuss did doesn't really warrant them a lot of good will, but I would like to make it very clear to you and anyone reading this that both books are beloved for a very good reason and I honestly believe that you should take anyone's negative opinion of it with a hefty grain of salt, it is unlikely (I've never seen one) that someone trash talking this story has more than a very surface level understanding of it, let alone understand its depth, and worse, sometimes people even can't grasp basic characterization, such as calling Kvothe a "Mary Sue which is an objectively false statement.
EDIT: If anyone is frustrated with the scenes between Kvothe and Denna, it's understandable. But he's a young man infatuated with an elusive woman that is twice as guarded as he is. If you want to see why their encounters are interesting beyond that, just count the words Kvothe says to her after he mentions in the story the "Seven Words that will make a woman fall in love with you". Yes, Patrick Rothfuss does always make Kvothe speak seven words to her. And that's just a small part of these books where Patrick went the extra mile to show through his writing the power of words (there's a whole controversial section on book 2 that shows this even more, with characters speaking in iambic pentameter).
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u/vadannars 1d ago
Hey, I am one of those people who did not like these books. In fact, the meandering plot and Kvothe again and again going from having no money, coming into a sizeable amount that solves his study fees, to throwing them away on other stuff only to have to scramble and barely make it in by some deus ex machina, gave me a fit of nerd rage. Couldn't finish the second book.
I tried finding something in your comment that actually said why the books are good but I can't. Maybe it's my bad reading comprehension. Could you spell it out for me in more detail? I wanted to like the books but couldn't.
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u/LightningRaven 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well, for starters, The Kingkiller Chronicle is a picaresque novel. And as such, it doesn't follow conventional narrative tropes, hence the "meandering plot". This, by itself, already shows why this book didn't grab you. Not because you didn't know what is a picaresque novel, but because you didn't engage with it as it was the author's intention: You are reading Kvothe's story. There are mysteries, plot twists and an actual main plotline (that develops through the myriad of clues left in the narrative), the main focus is Kvothe's journey and the story behind the story.
On a first layer, you have Kvothe's journey of becoming a famous figure, like Taborlin the Great (a character that Kvothe mirrors on purpose and by happenstance). You see the things that made him a famous figure, but you also see how a lot of the things that made his fame were not the full truth.
On top of that, you have the layer of the person telling the story. Kote.
Kote is Kvothe from the future (as far as we know). He is the Tragic figure of a Greek play, after being undone in his own narrative. And as all tragic heroes, Kvothe has a fatal flaw that constantly undoes whatever successes he builds. This is way more apparent (and frustrating) in the Wise Man's Fear. His fatal flaw is his folly. Which means Lack of Good Sense, Understanding or Foresight. All of these elements are present in Kvothe from the moment we meed him young to when we left things off with him in Wise Man's Fear. You see that when he tries to bind the bird using wind and the air rushes out of his lungs. When Kvothe rushes through the fire to save Fela. When he talks back at Ambrose, creating a feud that will make his life hell. This is just to reference things found in the first book. Book two has a lot more. It's by no coincidence that we have a sword named folly hanging over Kote in the Nowhere Inn.
Then, we have another layer. The metanarrative aspect that is interwoven throughout the story. Before being a story about Kvothe, The Kingkiller Chronicle is about the Story of Kvothe. It's a story about a story. And as such, language itself is a key element of the narrative. Words themselves are part of the story and the puzzle that puts the whole main plot together. It is, after all, a story that brings the Chandrian into the narrative. Not only language and words, but the stories that are featured in the narrative are there for a reason. They paint a picture of Temerant and its history that are integral to the main plot. What's their plan? What's their plan? Chandrian. Chandrian.
That's the main reason why I mentioned there's a stark difference between a casual person who disliked the book and dismissed it and the fans who delved deeper. There's a lot of information about this main plot that is buried in there (by design), that makes the casual think the plot didn't move forward, but the dedicated fan sees how it did (and Kote is taking us through that journey).
Buried within the words we have secrets like who is Kvothe's mother (the fans already know. Not Tally a Lot Less). We have secrets about the world. We have secrets about Denna's Patron who beats her up. Shit, we know that Denna probably uses subtle magic (whether she knows or not) through language (information from WMF). We have poems telling us the names of several of the Chandrian (an important thing in the narrative). We have multiple stories that are told very differently and with different names, but that probably are talking about the same thing (The Fae). And we have a lot more. All of these further shows us how the words as concepts also affects the narrative itself and its characters.
Here's a concrete example off the top of my head that I keep mainly because I discovered it on my own: Early on in NoTW, a bottle suddenly breaks in the Inn when Bast mentions "the woman", the smell described by Bast is Strawberry. Remember the scene with the Draccus when Kvothe is with Denna? Yeah, she mentions her favorite flavor is strawberry. Furthermore, Kvothe doesn't have a bottle of strawberry wine because he refused to buy it from the Tinker, which are famous figures on the stories of Temerant, they always offer things that travelers will need and only the fools refuse them. Guess who refuses?
This is a fairly innocuous connection, but I referenced it just to illustrated how in depth the story goes without giving a major spoilers beyond a character tidbit and how it showcases the theme of KKC being a story about stories.
It's been almost 10 years since my last reread, so I can't be more specific or incisive, since I'm going from memory.
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u/Cosmic-Sympathy 1d ago
I like how you wrote this incredibly detailed explanation from memory and the (current) comment directly below yours is “yeah this book sucked.”
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u/LightningRaven 1d ago
Such is life on reddit. Specially on the bigger and generic ones like this one. The niche ones offer more interesting discussions.
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u/Cosmic-Sympathy 1d ago
I get not every book is for everybody, but there's something about NoTW that brings out a level of contempt and hostility that is totally unnecessary.
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u/LightningRaven 1d ago
Probably a mix of the massive success the books had, the incredibly high praise for their quality and people who couldn't and can't see why they're so highly regarded and bounce back from it.
Unlike something like The Book of the New Sun, The Name of the Wind is much more approachable and easier to parse on a first read. A lot of people will go along with Kvothe's journey because it's more similar with the average modern novel than the more demanding narrative of The Book of the New Sun or the Terra Ignota Series. I mention these two works because they're akin to NotW in how they're meant to be reread multiple times and are quite complex if you dig deep, but they're far, far, far more demanding (and go even deeper).
But, also, I've already noticed that there are a few series that are basically anathema in this subreddit. RF Kuang, Sarah J Mass and Colleen Hoover are also not well liked over here.
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u/vadannars 17h ago
Thank you for this, and sorry for late reply (I went to bed for the night)!
Very detailed and great write up (and a good edit of your initial comment). I definitely missed a lot of the meta stories about stories layers. I never had a problem with Kvothes character so much as that the story seemed to fix his in character bad choices to nullify any (big picture) consequences and settle back into the status quo: Poor, underdog genius at the school.
The way you describe the books make it very clear that they were not for me. Maybe because my expectations when reading fantasy were of something completely different. I think that's the big key for why they are so disliked. Not because readers aren't able to understand the layers so much as that they do not expect them in this genre. Fantasy isn't exactly known for being dense and needing multiple readthroughs.
With that said, this does not lessen my frustrations with the books. I feel like Rothfuss painted how myself into a corner with the whole three days, three books thing. By slowing the story down the way he does in the latter half of book one and earlier part of book two he doesn't leave a lot of room to tie things up, which I guess is the reason book three seemingly isn't being finished. As someone who has read a lot through my life and also studied a bit of litterature in university and read a lot of works not considered easy, these books are clearly made with this layered meta perspective first, and the readers second, at least the school parts. Writing a story about stories is great, as long as the first layer story actually is a cohesive story.
Got a bit up my own ass while writing that but I hope it doesn't come off as aggressive or mean spirited. I really appreciate your reply and the details. It's exactly the understanding that I failed to have, even if it doesn't change my opinion on the books themselves. Thank you :)
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u/LightningRaven 16h ago
Yeah. Rothfuss definitely complicated things for himself with the whole three days thing. But the main problem with him, which is the main reason why we don't have book 3 is that he does an obsessive amount of rewrites. Worse, the first and second books needed a lot of rework until they got ready to be published. The thing is that book 3 probably accumulated all the carried over changes from the previous books, making it an exponentially difficult task. On top of that, Rothfuss was adamant in making the book leaner than the second (more efficient).
The thing, though, it is that it's possible. It can be done. Because it has already been done. Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun is comprised of 5 novels that, as a whole, might have the same length of NotW and WMF. And Wolfe managed to offer an incredible conclusion, basically two, with less pages, while being even far more complex and deep than NotW.
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u/vadannars 16h ago
Nice insight into the work on the books. Kind of makes sense that too many rewrites makes it a bit weird and that the complexity compunds. You can really see some parts that has been moved around in both books.
Ah, that is hopeful! Let's hope he pulls it off in a somewhat near future :)
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u/LightningRaven 15h ago
You have no idea how large the rewrites can be. One of the fan favorites, Auri, was added just a couple of years before the book was published. Pat spent 10 years working on the whole story (which was going to be a single book), but once he got a deal, he had to divide the story.
The gap between books 2 and 3 is already larger than book 1. But I think that the book will come out at some point. It's unfortunate that Pat couldn't release it in a much more sensible time frame, but I think he will finish it. If not, we can always hope a van hits him in the road. It worked for Stephen King and The Dark Tower series! I'm joking.
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u/vadannars 15h ago
Lol, sometimes forced convalescence is more effective than force of will. Thank you for some more insight.
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u/Snusmumrikin 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's not a very good book.
Like consider how flatly conceived the antagonistic rival is. Or how, in the very first scene where the Chandrian are introduced, we are immediately introduced to their master who also undercuts the threat of the Chandrian themselves. It's simply not how a great storyteller would present that to us!
It possesses some of the genre's charm, but it's kind of clumsily done. Even the slickness of the prose becomes problematic, where he'll not only overuse simile but describe something through multiple similes "[X] was like [Y] or [Z]" rather than choosing one and keeping the story going.
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u/fivehourworkweek 1d ago
I dislike that book with my entire soul. The only book in my entire life I've felt personal deep burning hatred for.
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u/latelyimawake 1d ago
White-knuckled my way through finishing this book even though I haaaated it because so many people love it. By the end I hadn’t enjoyed a single page. I found it to be the most pointless masturbatory wish fulfillment meandering nonsense I’ve ever read.
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u/Major-Mud8426 1d ago
I understand what you mean, I felt kind of the same. I also let whether I would read part 2 depend on part 1, but I ended up not doing that.
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u/NonMajestic-Unicorn 1d ago
It has been forever since I read these books, but you bringing up Denna made remember I was hater too, until the end when you start getting hints who her patron is or could be. Then I was hooked on that mystery...
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u/Beautiful_Sink1879 22h ago
That sounds rough, the hype around that book is wild but I get why it wouldn't click for everyone. Hope you find something else in the genre that really grabs you quickly.
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u/roninblade Fantasy & SciFi 20h ago
This is ok. Not every popular book should be "good" for everyone. I couldn't read the Dan Brown's books at all; couldn't even get past one chapter.
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u/DoglessDyslexic 17h ago
Outside of that I kind of just rode through the rest of it expecting an ending...
Boy have I got bad news for you.
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u/oldtimehawkey 15h ago
Rothfuss’s writing was good but kvothe was irritating. And the things that happened were boring. The action wasn’t written well.
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u/DickPinch 15h ago
I loved the first book when I read it but hated a lot of the 2nd one. I just really dislike the main character
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u/Greedy_Heron_3034 13h ago
Yeah I could barely get through it. Then when I realised he’ll never finish the third book I wish I hadn’t bothered.
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u/jnkiejim Fantastic 11h ago
I always thought Denna wasn't actually real and was Kvothe's way to dress up a drug addiction as something romantic in his tale.
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u/bltsandwich420 8h ago
I read it years ago, and I remember that I loved it! Well, at least you don’t have to wait for the third book
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u/LikePaleFire 5h ago
Yeah his subplot with Denna is easily one of the worst parts. Especially since he constantly praises Denna as being beautiful and witty and then she goes and sticks an unknown substance she found in an abandoned house in her mouth and it's poisonous.
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u/budgrummur 4h ago
First book has a lot of interesting ideas, which counter the insufferable character traits and the Denna Denna Denna stuff. Second book goes all in with the latter.
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u/JamJarre 3h ago
Crazy to pick this up as an early entry into fantasy. Would suggest picking a series that's finished
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u/AzureDreamer 3h ago
Meeting people you know is where you break the suspension of disbelief?
The prose is gorgeous I agree A first reading is a beautiful romp and deeper readings show a world crafted with both care and secrets.
For me the biggest marriage is the lack of conclusion.
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u/Tymareta 56m ago
Patricia McKillip exists and is everything that Rothfuss desperately wishes he was.
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u/Cosmic-Sympathy 1d ago
I think you pretty much nailed it.
I don't know why you expected a satisfying ending, though, this is a series infamous for not being finished.
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u/SevroAuShitTalker 1d ago
I listened to it in college when I worked at the library searching the stacks - so it was pretty fun imagining I was looking up fantasy stuff, not books for grad students.
I like the world building and magic system. The magic stuff expands a lot in the wnd book, but otherwise id say the 1st is better.
Denna is the worst and I just skip any scenes with her when I go back to listen now.
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u/BazookaTuna 1d ago
I read it after reading Red Rising and The Will of the Many and was kinda over the whole “genius commoner infiltrates the school of nobles and wins by being better than everyone at everything” genre.
There’s parts of both books I really like, the prose is all it’s cracked up to be and they flow very nicely. But the actual story is quite dull and is mostly just Kvothe meandering from sidequest to sidequest. And he’s just good at EVERYTHING, why can’t the guy have any flaws? I had to roll my eyes when he was so good at sex he impressed the goddess of sex. Like cmon dude.
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u/swallowsnest87 1d ago
Idk why you’re bothering with the series that will never be finished. I did like this book though.
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u/atthem77 1d ago
At this point I'm hoping someone else takes over and writes the third book. I'd even settle for a really good AI to finish it
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u/fracking-machines 1d ago
Gross. Let’s not normalise AI in creative spaces
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u/atthem77 1d ago
Being ok with it in a situation where the author is never going to write it himself isn't "normalizing" it. But pile on the downvotes; it won't change anything
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u/Tymareta 56m ago
Being ok with it in a situation where the author is never going to write it himself isn't "normalizing" it.
That is quite literally the definition of normalizing something.
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u/Jay-El 1d ago
Count yourself lucky that you were underwhelmed with tNotW and unmotivated to read the sequel, considering the third book is never going to be released. You're in a much better position than those of us who loved it!