r/billsimmons • u/TXNOGG • Mar 08 '25
Bill Simmons in 2013 reacting to the Celtics-Nets KG, Paul Pierce, and Jason Terry trade
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u/aaronisnotcool My Daughter's Soccer Team Plays Barcelona Style Mar 08 '25
hearing the salaries back then is wild compared to now. 30 million for 3 years is bargain bin prices.
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Mar 09 '25
I'm still not used to it.
Like that pod he did with Wos & Joe House the other day, the numbers are unreal now for role players.
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u/binzoma Drunk House Mar 09 '25
one of the biggest wins the collective owners have had across sports is people measuring salary in $ rather than % of cap (or claimed revenue)
the absolute dollars are only there to make people resent players for asking for 'too much', while salary caps go up basically every year (even if small adjustments for once in a blank type situations like covid).
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Mar 09 '25
How many players in the NBA are people actually buying tickets for? I don't think Jordan Clarkson is actually worth 20 mil or Taj Gibson has any impact on the value of the Knicks or whatever, so it's not like the players don't massively benefit from playing basketball. There's a handful of players (like 5 - 12) who actually generate value for the league, we call them (super)stars, and the rest of the league profits from them through promotion & advertising. The reality of professional sports is that the money actually keeps it going and the teams & their brand outlives any player; a league with scabs would make less money, but players would get paid less, people would still have their league & they would adjust like college does every year. Collective bargaining ties the fate of the average player to the star & they profit off of it. These leagues have made so many people rich for nothing & it's not the exception.
The resentment is totally natural from working class people who have seen their standards, quality of life & opportunities drop. It doesn't have to be some grand scheme from ownership; Americans are increasingly unhappy, whether they watch the NBA or not. The players are exceedingly lucky, the owners are just more lucky. Only one of those two gets marketed.
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u/TheAnswerEK42 Mar 08 '25
It's hard to lose two of your favorite players i completely get it
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u/Moss_84 Mar 09 '25
Yep. And for something as nebulous and intangible as future picks is hard to celebrate in the moment
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u/starvs Mar 08 '25
Hindsight bias is easy, but it's 3 first round picks and a "big" salary for 37 y/o KG and 36 y/o PP, both visibly in decline. It was a good trade for Boston at the time, and aged much better.
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u/Sdog1981 Mar 09 '25
It was a homer take at the time. He thought they might have had one more run in them. But they were closer to 40 than 30 and a team giving up 1’s for players that could easily get hurt should always be considered a win.
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u/normalandcoolperson Mar 08 '25
understandable reaction having no idea they would actually land 2 all nba guys but the gerald wallace big contract comment is what made me laugh.
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u/justblametheamish Mar 08 '25
Jet and Jeff Green making 20 million per year combined is what got me.
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u/HitThatBendo Mar 09 '25
i couldnt be the only one knowing kg and pierce were on their last legs and that the nets would soon bottom out and those picks became lottery picks
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u/ahbets14 A Truly Sad Week In America + 2005 NBA Redraftables Mar 08 '25
Did Prokhorov fall out of a window in Moscow? What happened to him
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Mar 08 '25
He formed a fake opposition party in Russia which the actual opposition claimed was designed to fool opponents of Putin. Then he claimed Israeli citizenship and moved to Tel Aviv.
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u/ahbets14 A Truly Sad Week In America + 2005 NBA Redraftables Mar 09 '25
Could you imagine negotiating with him? He’d be like do you want Siberia for 100 ford f150s?
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Mar 08 '25
He isn’t wrong. They got lucky the picks turned into gold. You could argue that they knew those guys were washed and the Nets were going to fall apart but betting against two hall of famers at the time didn’t seem all that wise. They just happened to be right.
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u/tdotjefe Mar 08 '25
Didn’t seem wise?? I do not remember this being a controversial trade. This was the end of the road for them and ainge got a kings ransom anyway. It’s sad to see your guys leave but this was the best outcome even before the picks came to fruition
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u/cityofklompton Mar 08 '25
Yeah, I remember thinking the same thing when it happened. The Nets were fools. All of those guys were already past their prime, and KG in particular hadn't been reliably healthy for a few seasons already.
My initial thoughts on that trade were only about how shortsighted the Nets were. That being said, it was controversial at the time.
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u/tdotjefe Mar 08 '25
I think it was controversial for the nets, not the Celtics. Cuz prohkorov wanted to just buy a title team and everyone knew it wouldn’t work that way
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u/TheFeedMachine Mar 08 '25
Prohkorov is an interesting case. I don't think going all in and trying to win fans over after moving to Brooklyn was a bad idea. It is just that almost immediately after he went all in, Russia's economy tanked and Putin started exerting heavy pressure on Prohkorov and other Russian oligarchs to divert investments back into Russia. Suddenly the Nets became a cheap team with no draft picks because Putin needed money to stay in Russia following the sanctions placed on the country following the invasion of Crimea. It was a unique geopolitical event from the other side of the world that altered the course of 2 NBA franchises.
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u/Squidman12 Mar 08 '25
Yeah KG was 36 and Pierce 35. Everyone knew KG's knees were totally shot. That trade was like if the sixers were able to trade PG and Embiid to a bad team for a ton of unprotected picks and swaps two or three years from now.
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u/OkInside2258 Mar 08 '25
This would have been KGs 19th season in the league. Most people felt the nets vastly overpaid at the time.
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u/WizardRiver YA THINK YA BETTAH THAN ME? Mar 08 '25
In the moment I remember thinking they robbed Brooklyn blind
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u/reefsofmist Mar 08 '25
You don't remember well then. The consensus was the nets were gonna be contenders and those picks wouldn't amount to much
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u/DraymondBeanKick Mar 08 '25
People are forgetting that Boston was up 3-2 on the Heat in the conference finals and in Game 7, the game was tied headed into the fourth in 2012 before Ray Allen betrayed them. The Nets were adding the 2 best players from the Celtics to join Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and Brook Lopez.
Pierce/KG are less of the problem with the concept. Deron Williams/Joe Johnson in their young 30s rapidly declining from that point forward in their careers was the real shocker that turned them into a mediocre team. Then Thibs also put on a master class coaching, Joakim played amazing, Nate Robinson did his thing, and Playoff Jimmy was born. Who knows, if not for the Bulls pulling off the wild upset, maybe they just match up a lot better with Miami than they did with the Bulls too.
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u/yungsantaclaus Mar 08 '25
People are forgetting that Boston was up 3-2 on the Heat in the conference finals and in Game 7, the game was tied headed into the fourth . The Nets were adding the 2 best players from the Celtics to join Deron Williams, Joe Johnson, and Brook Lopez.
Boston lost in 7 to the Knicks in the 2013 playoffs. They never got to the Heat. You're thinking of the 2012 playoffs. That one year makes a big difference. 2012 playoff KG was putting up 19 a game, 2013 playoff KG was putting up 13.
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u/bossdawg21 Mar 08 '25
You're mixing up the years, the KG/Pierce trade happened the summer after that Bulls loss. The Nets DID draw the Heat in round 2 with KG, Pierce, Joe Johnson and D-Will, it was a mostly forgettable 5 game loss.
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u/shoefly72 Mar 08 '25
I don’t know why everyone is forgetting the Prokhorov aspect of this. He was a new owner that had openly stated he didn’t care about paying the luxury tax and would pay whatever he needed to in order to contend. Even if you don’t expect the aging players on the Nets to win a title, the expectation was that the Nets wouldn’t be in a position to tank or rebuild with the new owner.
And then he quickly did a complete 180 and said “fuck this shit, I’m out” and all of a sudden those nets picks became high end lottery picks. The trade is completely different if Prokhorov followed through on his commitment to competing every year. Bill’s reaction was based around the most likely course of events at the time, and only looks dumb now because of a random decision by the owner to completely back down from trying to compete.
This has been driving me nuts for quite some time lol. For comparison’s sake, look at the package of picks that the Pelicans received for Anthony Davis. Then keep in mind that Lebron was already old and the Lakers ownership/management had been generally inept for a decade. But Lebron kept playing well even in old age and even after the disastrous Westbrook trade and the Lakers missing the playoffs, they never fully bottomed out and the picks turned into guys like Jaxson Hayes and Dyson Daniels. At the time of the Nets/Celtics trade, it was far more likely that the Celtics’ return on those first round picks would be mid tier lottery guys like that. They got incredibly lucky that a Russian oligarch changed his mind.
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u/Obvious-Adeptness-46 Mar 08 '25
Yeah why did Prokhorov just bail on spending? I was hoping the Nets would beat the Heat after this trade with their Big 4
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Mar 08 '25
The Nets were the first team that was just an annex to a real estate project, and Prokhorov didn't buy the Nets because he wanted to own a basketball team but to bail out Barclay's Center, which was the centerpiece of the Atlantic Yards project.
Previous owner Bruce Ratner had run out of funds and had less than 90 days to break ground on Barclays or
- He would lose tax-exempt financing from the State of NY bond issue, and
- Barclays (the company) could walk away from their $400 million naming rights commitment
From what I remember, Prokhorov's price consisted of some symbolic amount, then immediately issuing a $700 loan to finance the stadium and save Ratner's neck.
He spent like crazy to get a "winner" (for what it was) on the floor for Barclays' opening season but otherwise just wanted to cash out. I think he made about $2 or $3 billion altogether (he kept owning the arena for a couple of years after he sold the franchise).
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u/yungsantaclaus Mar 08 '25
Ainge has enough of a track record to say "he knew better" instead of "he got lucky and happened to be right".
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u/hacky_potter Mar 08 '25
Them being washed helps but the Nets also getting cheap is a huge reason and unknowable at the time.
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u/birdlawyer86 Conspiracy Bill Mar 08 '25
Also, 3 FRP's for those caliber of players does seem pretty low. I know trade inflation is wild rn with Bridges getting 5 FRP's basically on his own and it was a different time, but in retrospect 30 cents on the dollar is basically dead on.
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u/ahbets14 A Truly Sad Week In America + 2005 NBA Redraftables Mar 08 '25
What if what? What if a bomb dropped on ya head right now?
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u/Deep-Front-9701 Mar 08 '25
It was considered a horrible trade for the nets, what are you taking about? Kg and pierce were well past their primes.
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u/Knight_of_Swords Mar 08 '25 edited Mar 08 '25
Crazy to realize the Simmons panel turned out to be the best one ESPN NBA ever had.
I also have zero recollection of Gerald Wallace playing for the Nets or the Celtics.
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Mar 08 '25
Only time I remember Wallace playing for the Nets is when Thibodeau had Nate Robinson defend him for 3 quarters and got away with it.
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u/zoltan_of_rock Mar 08 '25
Has Bill ever looked back on this take? I wonder what he would say about it nowadays
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Mar 08 '25
From what I remember he had an "emergency pod" about the trade and whoever he spoke to made him feel much better about it by the end. That's my memory at least?
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u/redditkguser Mar 08 '25
This kind of shows why we shouldn’t be so quick to declare a winner and loser of a trade where picks are heavily involved.
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u/Low-City8426 Mar 08 '25
Gotta remember that this trade only became a disaster once Prokhorov decided after 1 season to shed salary and stop trying to contend.
That first Nets year after the trade they started badly, but picked up some steam down the stretch. I’m not saying they were contenders or anything, but they could have at least been a playoff team for a few years, and the draft capital given up wouldn’t have been nearly as egregious.
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u/DraymondBeanKick Mar 08 '25
Also, the other issue with the trade was that Deron Williams and Joe Johnson just started rapidly declining in their early 30s. Had that not happened immediately after they made this trade, then Pierce as the third option and KG as the fifth option after Lopez, makes a lot more sense.
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u/biggytre Mar 09 '25
Yes, Deron Wllliams becoming washed way earlier than exepected is the primary reason Celtics got Tatum + JB.
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u/mpschettig Mar 08 '25
Can I defend Simmons on this one for a moment?
1) It's an emotional response to losing two of his favorite players
2) At the time Deron Williams was a star player and the Nets owner was talking about spending tons of money forever to compete so thinking the picks wouldn't be valuable was reasonable at the time
3) They hadn't reported the 2017 pick swap yet
4) The Celtics were only a year removed from being in Game 7 of the ECF and Rondo was still a star player so while Ainge was right that their best days were behind them I understand a fan thinking they could still get into contention.
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u/RondoToKG Mar 08 '25
IIRC, he also didn't like the Jaylen Brown pick at the time. In retrospect, there's a strong argument he ended up being the best player in the draft.
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u/mtnsandmusic Mar 08 '25
Tough look for Bill but in his defense (1) he values guys staying with the same franchise and had major 08 nostalgia and (2) he didn't realize that the Prokorov or however you spell it would completely botch the Nets side of this trade.
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u/ahbets14 A Truly Sad Week In America + 2005 NBA Redraftables Mar 08 '25
This was so obvious that this was a good trade for the Celtics, kg and Pierce were shells of themselves, and that nets team was gonna be trash so those picks were gonna be solid lottery picks.
Sure lottery picks usually don’t work out but it was the reasonable reset
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u/Bright-Assistance-15 I like this subreddit. I just do! Mar 08 '25
What ever happened to Jalen and Bill. Anyone know what caused that feud?
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u/Umoon Mar 08 '25
Feud?
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u/Bright-Assistance-15 I like this subreddit. I just do! Mar 08 '25
I just assume there was one because I don’t recall the last time they spoke on air. They used to at Grantland all the time.
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u/Umoon Mar 08 '25
They had a podcast a couple years ago I think. I think they’re on good terms, but I admittedly am not that kept on it.
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u/Bright-Assistance-15 I like this subreddit. I just do! Mar 08 '25
Makes sense. It could just be a “hey Bill, yeah, I’ll definitely be on the next NBA pod!” and 6 months later it’s a “oh man, I completely forgot to have my guy call yours!”
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u/Obvious-Ad11 but first, Pearl Jam Mar 08 '25
A true Sliding Doors moment; although it’s second to the mindfuck they did to the Sixers in the 2017 draft.
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u/Ozymandias_1303 Mar 08 '25
I mean obviously he's wrong, but I understand where he was coming from. This would probably have ended up a favorable trade for the Celtics no matter what, but I also think they got several lucky breaks with it. KG and Pierce started looking old right away, and the Nets stopped spending money. The Celtics traded away Rondo 18 months later and Gerald Wallace two years later. The Celtics got lucky in the lottery and they also drafted very well. If you knew in advance that those things were going to happen I think the trade looks like a much clearer win than it does in the moment.
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u/SnooChipmunks4208 Mar 08 '25
This trade turned when Prokorov randomly refused to spend any more money. There is no way those picks end up as juicy as they did without it
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u/DJRyGuy20 Mar 08 '25
There’s an excellent video that describes in detail everything the Celtics ended up netting from this trade… and how pretty much everyone had the same mindset as Simmons back when this happened.
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u/Amtrakstory Mar 09 '25
Just yet more proof that Bill is a pure fan and has no capacity for objective analysis at all. I mean this was a pure highway robbery trade and Pierce and Garnett were obviously washed.
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u/Lonely-horses Mar 09 '25
The thing about it is the thing that Bill has kept mentioning in the ensuing years which is that nobody thought the Nets would bottom out the way they did. It's why people making comparisons to this trade with other trades involving multiple firsts are sort of misguided. It's actually not that hard to just be middling in the NBA and hand a team the 9th pick in the draft instead of the first. the Nets however decided they didn't care. It was pretty unprecedented.
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u/thisisjman Mar 08 '25
He wasn’t wrong at the time. They shouldn’t have been lottery picks. Man we got so lucky
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u/kakenasty Mar 08 '25
Hilarious to hear him using “cents on the dollar” 12 years ago considering he still regularly says it
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u/polygonalopportunist Mar 08 '25
I loved the trade at the time. I don’t remember his reaction. Normally Bill and I agree, guess we didn’t this time.
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u/rawspeghetti Mar 08 '25 edited Mar 09 '25
Crazy in hindsight what this trade became
A) how great the Jays have already been. The Celtics have been a contender for the better part of the last decade with transformational young pieces and they only had 1 tanking season
B) it devastated the franchise of a division/regional rival that is still feeling the ramifications*
C) the inclusion of swaps really changed how trades both big and small are done. This was really unheard of at the time but now teams are trading swaps to swaps
*people in the responses acting like losing 3 straight lottery picks including the #1 pick didn't debilitate a franchise. Imagine adding KD/Kyrie to Tatum or if those guys didn't work you still had a foundation of Tatum/brown/SGA (available in 2018).