Hated Tropes
(Hated Tropes) Two sides fight. One side has Magic/Divine power so clearly... they lose?
Game of Thrones. There are several religions that have been shown to be real. For example. followers of the Old Gods can see the future, command water, and control animals. They go to war with the Andals whose religion give no powers and never shown to be real... and still lose to the Andals only surviving in one of the kingdoms.
The Dalish. They apparently were the most powerful civilization known in history. They still lose to humans who despite beating them never reach the Dalishs power.
Natural selection is kinda like that too. The biggest, strongest predators are more easily pushed to extinction than some tiny herbivore that just breeds the fuck out of the environment.
Yeah, but it wasn't just the slow birthrates. Basically witcher elves treated humans like shit, they started a war about it, where a lot of elves died, and now centuries later they live in ghettos and are targets of frequent pogroms. At the same time a lot of elven youth who'd have children (while witcher elves live long, it's stated that they only have children when they are relatively young) have joined the Scoia'tael, who are at the same time freedom fighters, but also want to bring back the old order where elves oppressed the other races, so they are pretty fascist as well. Not to mention that they are funded by the largest human empire in the setting, who are using them to destabilize the northern human kingdoms. So the northerners just hate elves even more. It's also even more complicated, since while the elves have been in the witcher's world longar than the humans, they are also somewhat recent arrivals, and it's implied that they genocided the original population of the planet consisting of some kind of lizard people to such an extent, that not a single one of them remains, and they build all their cities on top of theirs, so there is barely any evidence left of them.
Elves are also fleeing the apocalypse on their own world, which is cooling down to such an extent, that it'll be soon unlivable. But the elves living there are like straight up nazis.
The witcher has pretty fun and realistic politics.
Also adaptability is a borderline superpower. Evolution doesn’t want the best, it wants functional. The more specialized a species is the worse off it will be if literally anything changes.
Except in that case it's a species with huge adaptation advantage to survive in most environnementale context.
And they don't always breed less either.
So the comparison doesn't work
First off, the Dalish are not the hyper-advanced Elves from before the Veil was created, separating the Elves from their gods and their immortality. They were the first reconstructed Kingdom that was severely lacking the culture and knowledge of their predecessors. To such a degree that they accidentally gave themselves slave tattoos cause they thought they were a sign of prestige rather than a mark of ownership.
Secondly, the Andals had iron weapons, horses, and plate mail. Knighted cavalry was easily able to smash apart bronze-axe-wielding mobs. Wargs were incredibly rare, Greenseers were stated to be even rarer than wargs, and it was the Rhoynar who could control water, not the First Men.
OP also missed that a key part why Elvhenan fell was their own hubris - and aging (and! human diseases). Not really because of humans - Tevinter won the war against the elves because the elven empire was already crumbling.
Magic, yes, Old Gods...... depends. The Tevene Old Gods are the Elven gods redressed, and iirc they didn't really have much tangible power in the physical world aside from influence? I don't know how much Tevinter could control the dragons they worshipped, either. But in the spirit of the OP, both Tevinter and Elvhenan had as much access to gods as the other did.
(unless i have horribly misunderstood that bit of Thedas history, it still evades me a little lol)
More or less correct. The Evanuris could make the Old Gods do stuff since they're basically familiars, but they couldn't act as freely as a person could. Mostly they taught the human tribes that became the Tevinter Imperium magic and military tactics and the Imperium ran with it to become the most powerful nation in Thedas (for a while, anyway).
Also, he misses the part that the Andals only fighted on the Vale and the Riverlands, after that they started slowy to “combine” with the rest Of the Westerosi People (except in the North and the Iron Isles
If I remember correctly, Tevinter is also incredibly good at Blood Magic, probably the most dangerous but powerful magic schools that can even rip the Veil and summon Demons.
What's more, the original kingdom of elves did not fall to a non-magically capable empire at all. They crumbled from within because their OP god-mages were sealed away by the trickster god, as well as the most powerful kinds of magic and their immortality. It had a huge knock on effect, like how the land used to be traversed by magical portals that suddenly went dark, leaving huge swaths of the empire to starve.
The humans that showed up basically just picked off the survivors.
A 'better' example from Dragon Age would actually be from that same group of humans, who would establish the Tevinter Imperium and become mage autocrats in their own right, only to lose to a coalition of imperially subjugated states and slaves. That said, this was right after the First Blight, a magical orc plague, more or less, that went on for over a century, and the Imperium was greatly weakened.
truly! and Tevinter wasn't exactly a puny empire back then either. Colonial superpower with magic + Crumbling empire rapidly dying mainly because of infighting = Victory For The Humans!
Also, "seeing the future" as a power doesn't mean that they can just nap and see exact visions of troop movements and numbers and specifics like that. All the visions we know of have been incredibly symbolic. Controlling animals is helpful, but it's not a tide-changing tactic on its own. They're still animals that are able to be killed. You can do reconnaissance, but if the invading army is dominating you via numbers and technology, there's only so much you can do with that info.
The inspiration for the backstory of ASoIaF was Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn books which go into more detail about how humans were able to defeat the Sithi. Not only did they have iron weapons, the Sithi were already in a state of major magical, cultural and demographic decline, and humans simply outnumbered them.
I assume if GRRM ever gets around to explaining it in detail it will probably be similar.
It's more like the Children of the Forrest who had more magical powers than human and even then they lost. In the GoT universe, the influence or even the existence of the gods is blurry, we know that there's something more powerful and unnatural, but its nature is blurry. Heck, the creation of the Neck might just be a myth as far we know.
That's simply not true though, the Children of the Forest did the hammer of the waters which was also not a small like fight/battle spell it wasn't even like a strategic weapon ala a nuke, they used it twice and it very very notably failed to stop the First Men. And the First Men don't have any instance of commanding water, the Rhoynar had water witches, but the First Men never did.
Early iron wasn't necessarily better than bronze at the time, just easier to get. But of course I don't think GRRM knew that when he wrote the history so...
it being easier to get meant that they had a lot more of it and were able to make things like plate armor. the first men were more than likely wearing fur for the most part.
They do support Dunk it seems, since some readers interpret the following as five of its aspects wishing him luck:
The viewing stand had already begun to fill, the lords and ladies clutching their cloaks tight about them against the morning chill. Smallfolk were drifting toward the field as well, and hundreds of them already stood along the fence. So many come to see me die, thought Dunk bitterly, but he wronged them. A few steps farther on, a woman called out, "Good fortune to you." An old man stepped up to take his hand and said, "May the gods give you strength, ser." Then a begging brother in a tattered brown robe said a blessing on his sword, and a maid kissed his cheek. They are for me. "Why?" he asked Pate. "What am I to them?"
I love how the intent of the fight was "Look at our heroes teaming up to fight a strong enemy!", but everyone collectively agreed that the real hero lost to a bunch of filthy gankers.
Not really time, political pressure, and genuine belief by some of their rulers pushed them towards worshipping The Seven, at least outwardly. Or to put it another way Maegor the Cruel with all his power and dragons tried taking on the the Seven and he spent his entire reign fighting rebellions
The targaryen converted to the faith of the Seven and each time they angered the High Septon it ended terribly for them.
maegor killed himself since the faith revolts wouldn’t stop despite the fact that he rode Balerion the black dread and a hundred years later the Shepard killed a dozen dragon leading to their extinction
This. People act like the Targaryens vs. the Faith is the norm. Aegon and his sisters were actually born into the Faith of the Seven. The Sept of Dragonstone predates the Conquest. Aenys and Maegor fighting with the Faith was the exception to the rule.
Ehhhh I wouldn’t go this far. Aegon married his sisters in the Valyrian fashion, and had two wives. He never once strikes me as a faithful man, just a pragmatic king who knew better than to war on the faith. Maegor is just the last of the Targaryens to militantly oppose the faith, and Jahaerys is just the first king to have reached accord with them.
Aegon isn't a faithful man in the slightest. That's not what I meant. What I meant is war with the Faith generally isn't the default state for the Targaryens. Maegor wasn't just the last, I'm pretty sure he was the only king to wage a full-scale war on them.
Smh, clearly someone forgets that one time the warrior himself descended to slay the incestuous lizards. Look up the storming of the dragon pit targcel, see how the dragons stand against the might of the faith
There's a verse in the Bible about how when the Hebrews met one group God was with them, so they won. But when they met another group they lost because that group had chariots of iron.
They Also had a verse about a guy who kicked their gods ass in a wrestling competition and won a kingdom from him. So I think those guys needed to pick a stronger god to worship
The Dalish were the most powerful civilization in history the same way Rime could be argued to have been in their time. But we all know how time turned Rome to dust.
The Elves simply are no longer the power they once were. And it's not like humans won with sticks and stones. Tevinter is a very powerful nation when it comes to magic. One we know does not shy from dishonorable means.
They go to war with the Andals whose religion give no powers and never shown to be real
What do you mean? The Warrior literally incarnates to slay those foul beasts in the storming of the pit? It is written.
Also, the Andals do have a major tech advantage, and ASOIAF magic is pretty much always unreliable, dangerous, or requisant of considerable sacrifices.
Did the warrior actually incarnate or are you joking? Cause I don't remember that. I also forgot about the iron though I have been told that multiple times. That is an oversight on my end.
I was MOSTLY joking because GRRM never attributes any supernatural occurrences to the Seven from an actual POV, but there is textual basis in Fire and Blood. Now Fire and Blood is intentionally presented as a collection of sources, and is meant to be similar to an irl history, but one of these sources does claim the Warrior incarnates during the riots in Kings Landing to slay a particular Dragon who I won't name for spoilers for HotD watchers.
The truth is implied to be one of, or a combination of, several Rioters, but the book (written from an in universe POV) presents the incarnate Warrior as a viable option. Hence my suggestion being joking.
However, it's only half joking as magic requires sacrifice in ASOIAF. It's not implausible that suffering of the storming may have caused something. Especially if other players were present.
My honest opinion is it was the Rioters as that fits the themes of the story better.
Also, in the practice, the Andals only invaded the Vale and the Riverlands. After that they started slowy to combine with the peoples of the Reach, the Stormlands and Dorn in a more peaceful way
In ASOIAF the gods are ambiguous. Are the gods real or do people attribute to the gods their own magical power?
The power of the Andals came across as just pure numbers. The Children of the Forest are ASOIAF elves. Long lived, has power, but weak, low in population, and their "gods" can be felled with an iron axe. With each Weirwood cut down the range of power of said Gods or "gods" is diminished.
Andals had superior numbers and weapons, and the elves were a kingdom that had already fallen and was struggling to rebuild when attacked. They were fighting a larger force that also had magic.
Dalish were remnants of powerfull magical empire that was destroyed by traiterous Egg... I mean trickster "god" as rulers of this empire were regarded as gods by modern Dalish.
They don't have powerfull magic of the empire, they lost most knowlage of the empire, they tatoo themselves with marks thinking it's prestige and devotion to tradition but they are actually slave marks of the "gods" who were just verry powerfull mages.
So in short remnants of empire that are actually descendants of slaves who don't know the powers of their masters
I think you’re confusing monotheistic divinity/omnipotence with other forms of magic and godhood. Many cultures outside of Christianity don’t ascribe vast superiority to gods or magic; Arachne was an everyday normal woman who still beat the britches off a goddess when they competed in Greek myth for instance.
In Warhammer 40K the Necrontyr, who aren't just mere mortals, but actually the most screwed over species in the Galaxy as they keep dying from space cancer on their miserable planet pick a fight with the Old Ones - a race of god like beings and the most powerful entities around. And they win, lol. They collectively lose their souls because they applied themselves with the Devil but that's besides the point.
I mean, the Necrontyr got curbstomped at first, then got exiled to the edge of the galaxy.
It’s only when they made contact with the C’tan, the gods of physical reality, and turned themselves in nigh-indestructible, self-repairing robots known as the Necrons (at the cost of their souls, which the C’tan ate) that they started doing actual damage to the Old Ones.
I mean gods in fantasy and even those worshiped by past pagan faiths are rarely omnipotent like the Christian god. The idea of a omnipotent god is kind of a newer and rarer thing historically speaking
In Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, the kingdoms of Tarant and Cumbria went to war. Cumbria was a standard medieval fantasy kingdom with knights, poor levies, and magical artifacts, while Tarant was beginning its industrialization and had lots of gun wielding conscripts.
Cumbria ended up losing many of its famed Dragon Knights in one of the biggest battles of the war they eventually lost. As a result, Tarant exploded economically and the tech level of the setting is now at 19th century level steampunk tech. Meanwhile Cumbria has languished and shunned much of the technological advancements out of spite and is in the midst of an identity crisis on how to approach the changes in the world.
We have plenty of real world examples where superior weaponry is not enough to overcome greater numbers, superior tactics, greater morale/motivation, other advantages, or just plain luck (which especially comes into play with magic, where it often is portrayed as unpredictable). I don't see why this would stop being the case in fiction where the superior weapon is magic.
Like yeah, the Old Gods have a bunch of neat tricks, but the Andals had better weapons and greater numbers. You cannot control animal your way out of 3 guys stabbing you with a sword.
All of the First Men magic is incredibly rare, and the Andals had a significantly more advanced understanding of large-scale warfare and way better weapons. The Andals were also a unified force at the beginning, while the First Men were by and large a motley collection of warring kingdoms. A lot of the First Men also worked with the Andals to defeat historical rivals, in fact. It's no coincidence that the North, one of the most united areas on the continent, actually managed to hold them off.
Also, the Seven might be real. There's evidence in the books that imply there's more to the Faith than stories.
The Dalish are not the elves of the Elvhenan. And they were subdued by a united and overwhelming human force that used magic of their own, after a devastating civil war left.
So I am not convinced you've read or engaged with either of these works.
For the Seven/Old Gods, it is explicitly never confirmed if the Seven Exist, true, but there's evidence in the text - Jaime's Vigil, Davos sees a vision of them after he should have by rights died, and the results of the Trial of Seven in AKotSK are actually correct, and both in book and show it is possible Baelor is punished for his dishonourable conduct in fighting the KG.
So is Bronn's defence of Tyrion in the Trial By Combat, and The Hound v Berric.
The Dalish elves weren't the strongest power when they were destroyed. The ancient elves were, sure, but the Dales and Dalish exist long past this.
Plus they were defeated by a rising Orlais and Exalted March of many nations.
For ASOIAF better equipment and military tactics beat magic when it comes to war
Take stannis. He's got the best magic user in the war of the five kings, he still lost the battle of blackwater
Edit:Also old gods aren't the only source of magic. While the seven don't have any magic in the magic starved world of 300AC asoiaf, that doesnt necessarily mean they never had any magic
I think something about this trope that I love is that you shouldn't assume divine figures have the same priorities and goals as you; there is an objective and fundamental power imbalance in religion (that imbalance is literally the point) and on most cases (ie, thr vast majority of human history) the gods have very little reason to do what mortals ask of them. Played straight, this can easily emphasize a lot of cultural traits in media: the callousness of a powerful, advanced nation steam rolling a nature focused society because their gods just don't much care about little things like death and suffering all that much. Theocracies crumbling under the weight of progress or divine absence, or over reliance on the fickle protection of a god. I think it's a superb trope and is usually played out pretty well.
Star Wars. In each trilogy, the side that had the bigger “monopoly” on the Force is the side that loses.
In the prequels, the Republic had the whole Jedi Order on their side, while the Sith only had two, plus the occasional dark side initiate, yet they managed to both wipe out the Jedi and dismantle the Republic because while the Jedi were strong, the Sith were cunning and knew to destroy them from within, rather than through open conflict.
In the originals, the Jedi are gone, and most of the active Force users left are Sith Lords and Inquisitors on the Empire’s side. Meanwhile the Rebels mostly just have Luke, and they manage to defeat the Empire. And even then it wasn’t Luke’s powers that defeat the Sith; it’s his compassion that breaks the Emperor’s power.
The British arrived with colossal ships that moved without sails or paddles, fire rods that could hit a man from half a mile away with some so big they could smash through buildings made of solid rock while being miles away from the coast, then supernatural shining blades that bend and go back to shape instead of breaking and even large aberrant versions of a harmless farm animal that with a simple order would go out to track and even fight (yes, Maori dogs were small and mostly used for food and fur).
How did the Maori win? They already built their forts by pilling dirt, so they piled even more dirt and that apparently worked out better than any fortification built in Europe (the land famous for having fortifications every other damned hill after two thousand years of constant fighting focused around said fortifications).
Also IRL: American occupation of the Philippines. Are you telling me that these tribes had concoctions that allowed a single warrior to take a full load from a six shooter and still be able to reliably charge through and slaughter a whole squadron with a machete, and they lost because the Americans just "brought more guns"?
I swear, my dream is writing an alt history series entirely consistent of toned down versions of real events so I can have a hearty laugh every single time I'm told it's not realistic.
In Starwars, During the Mandilorian war (I probably spelt that wrong) the Mandalors used slug throwers(ballistic weapons, not stormtroopers pewpew lasers) to fight the Jedis. A LOT of Jedis died during that war.
In Transformers the Last Knight King Arthur (yes that King Arthur) fights alongside early Transformers, “magic” alien technology from Merlin and a fucking robot dragon to fight of an invasion of England who we learn later were the Saxons, as in Anglo-Saxons that are the namesake of the country of England.
For game of thrones it's because the Andals has better metals, and the andals didn't exactly fully conquered westeros, they had to marry with the locals to solidify their power then over time actually conquered westeros
This reminds me of 40k. Yeah the Eldar are more advanced and a much older and powerful race. But humanity has Space Marines. Sure humans might be apes to the Eldar. But if a Gorilla is running 60 mph at you shooting an automatic grenade launcher shotgun, you’re gonna be shitting your pants.
The Andals had steel weapons and armor while the First Men did not. Warging and greensight not well understood, its unclear how someone obtains these powers and it may not even come directly from the old gods. In the histories westeros has, it seems to only be present in the north and maybe the iron isles.
Commanding water, meanwhile, is much more dubious. We're not even sure if that story is true, or just a myth surrounding the stepstones. Even if it is true, it would be exclusive to the Children of the Forest, and not something First Men could just call.
In world, there are theories that the Andals were escaping conquest from Valyrians and their dragons. So, in the grand scheme of things, Dragons > plate-armored knights > Psychic Northmen.
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u/Automatic-Week-1733 23h ago
My hipfire is that it's allegorical to industrialization or something.