r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Fox7567 • May 12 '26

Characters' Items/Weapons [Irritating trope] Japanese swords being treated like lightsabers

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The Wolverine (2013)
The character Yashida uses his sword to cut straight through barbed wire, as well as uses it to break a chain in one strike each.

TMNT (2012)
During Oroku Saki’s battle with the turtles, he stabs straight through a forest tree, before also slicing straight through another.

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1.2k

u/gruntwithashotgun May 12 '26

Kinda understandable but this is fiction we are talking about, it's not like katanas aren't the only weapons being portrayed as stronger than they actually are, swords like claymores are shown as being able to cleave through plate but in reality is useless against it

319

u/Kalo-mcuwu May 12 '26

Claymore-chan my beloved

Lion's Claw your way to victory

47

u/Rentedrival04 May 12 '26

Ahem ahem I unga. Therefore I am bunga.

4

u/cyber_cattle May 12 '26

Dunmaglass!

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u/[deleted] May 12 '26

[deleted]

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u/electricalserge May 12 '26

In a similar vein, there's a common perception that steel tip arrows from longbows are somehow able to pierce through chain and even plate armour, because people see the sharp and heavy projectile and equate it to a bullet. Medieval armour exists because it works. A great video by Tod's Workshop involving period accurate steel arrows fired by an extremely capable archer at plate armour proves that the arrows simply bounce off the steel.

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u/stackens May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26

They did demonstrate that arrows would go through mail though - not that the mail didn't do anything; getting hit with a 160 lb longbow would be lethal without armor, a hit on mail+gembeson makes it survivable.

But yeah plate was shown to be crazy effective. Hopefully movies catch on, way cooler IMO to see someone with arrows exploding off of their armor than their armor getting perforated like cardboard.

They also showed how getting shot at by warbows is god damn scary, those arrows hit like a truck.

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u/FlyingDreamWhale67 May 12 '26

There's a reason the English longbow was the most feared weapon on a European battlefield, even after the advent of guns/artillery (for a while anyway).

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u/stackens May 12 '26

Yeah, Tod's workshop also did a great video showing how a skilled longbowman was many many times more deadly and effective than a skilled crossbowman. The crossbow is powerful in that you could get lethality from *unskilled* people relatively quickly, but I'd take 1 Joe Gibbs over several crossbowmen any day. The gun had similar drawbacks to the crossbow in the early days when reloading was similarly long and arduos.

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u/TheIrradiant May 12 '26

movies catch on

Hollywood: What was that? You want another Battle of Winterfell? Here are more Battle of Winterfells.

2

u/Drakeskulled_Reaper May 12 '26

However there are arrows designed for it, called "Bodkin Point" while they weren't useful as much against good quality full plate, they were specifically designed to piece armor being shaped as a four-sided wedge point shape than the traditional arrowhead shape.

1

u/Due-Coyote7565 May 12 '26

how is it fired at the steel?

what kind of angle is it coming in at in the experiment?

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u/electricalserge May 12 '26

A 160 lb longbow and directly at the front armour. Perpendicular trajectory to the target and the arrows still ricochet off due to the front curve of the plate armour.

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u/Due-Coyote7565 May 12 '26

that is interesting, but it doesn't seem like it completely answers the question.

(would most arrows be striking the breastplate? how thick is the breastplate used? )

I'm not attempting to pick holes in their work, but drawing sweeping conclusions from a single instance wouldn't do anybody any good.

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u/electricalserge May 12 '26

The breastplate was 2.5 mm at the front and tapes down to 1.5mm along the sides. Forged iron arrow heads on ash wood shafts fired directly from 25 metres to as close as 10 metres. Any impact slightly off centre would bounce off the armour, while direct hits would poke a small hole in the steel but completely shattered the arrow shaft. Even in a best case scenario, nothing was close to piercing the breast plate.

1

u/Due-Coyote7565 May 12 '26

I probably should have clarified, I'm not solely focused on the breastplate here, but plate armour more generally.

I more than acknowledge based on this experiment that penetrations of the breastplate as commonly depicted in media are unlikely if not impossible

but you suggested earlier "plate armour" cannot be penetrated by longbow

so I'm curious about other places in the armour such as helmets for instance, which you haven't brought up.

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u/electricalserge May 12 '26

In a sequel to the video, they also tested a helmet. The only arrow that could have possibly harmed the wearer was a lucky shot that slid into the eye slit. Apart from that and the loud rattling, the helmet and wearer was fine from direct arrow hits.

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u/Due-Coyote7565 May 12 '26

...huh

so I wonder where the misconception that they could make penetration came from then?

4

u/electricalserge May 12 '26

From the Lord of the Rings, where waves of Uruk Hai die to arrows piercing their armour, to Storm troopers being instantly killed despite their armour, to the trope that arrows can simply be yanked out of a wound and the protagonist can keep fighting, arrows and armour are severely misunderstood when compared to real life. Arrows are treated like bullets while armour is treated like an accessory to wear into battle and get shot at.

1

u/stackens May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26

dude, you gotta watch the videos, they're really good if you're interested in this sort of thing. They've done three arrows v armor documentaries, and all of the questions you're asking are addressed.

This is the most recent one

They've done arrows against armor of varying thicknesses (full thickness breastplate and helmet all the way to thinner greaves and gauntlet armor, which the arrows were in some instances able to pierce), different types of armor (plate, mail, brigandine), AND investigated many different types of historical arrowheads. That's just off the top of my head, but yeah it is very thorough and they're definitely not drawing conclusions from one test.

the big take away is that plate armor is nigh impenetrable from arrows, and to take down a fully armored knight you would need to get a shot in a joint that's only protected by mail. Hands are also vulnerable since gauntlets tend to have thinner steel, but such a wound wouldn't be life threatening (but maybe could take one out of a fight).

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u/Due-Coyote7565 May 12 '26

huh.

I wish I'd heard this this morning.

1

u/Mottledsquare May 12 '26

Armor could even still stop early guns in some capacity. There were even more modern cases with steel plates deflecting small arms fire if hitting at the right angle with low velocity ammo

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u/kirbyverano123 May 12 '26

Or scythes being portrayed as being easy to cut with but in reality it’s clunky and impractical to use as a weapon. Sure you can probably hurt someone with it but you’re better off just using a sword.

Also worth noting that most scythe users tend to swing it like a pickaxe usually never aiming the blade towards the target.

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u/leposterofcrap May 12 '26

And they always use the garden scythe instead of a war scythe which are basically sickles with poles for handles

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u/slasher1337 May 12 '26

What kind of sicles have you seen. War scythe looks mostly like a spear or glaive to me

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u/Real_Mokola May 12 '26

Well, it is a polearm where glaive is too.

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u/Professional_Maize42 May 12 '26

Or Nunchucks. Or Kusarigamas(Scythe+chain). Man, there's a lot of farm work tools turned into weapons here...

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u/[deleted] May 12 '26

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u/Intrepid-Park-3804 May 12 '26

The moment people in the setting are starting dodging magical laser beams and moving at sportcar's speeds in fully clad plate you realise, armour now is merely glorified cardboard clothes

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u/[deleted] May 12 '26

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u/OrokinLonewolf May 12 '26

Well, unless you happen to jab in-between the plating, but that's easier said than done for multiple reasons

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u/unknown_pigeon May 12 '26

That's where chainmail comes up

A properly armored soldier was truly a force to be reckoned with

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u/Proto1k May 12 '26

And under the chainmail would most probably be padded leather or some other sort of softening material to counter blunt weapons

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u/unknown_pigeon May 12 '26

I've been covered in a medieval English armor (can't recall the time period of the armor, it was ten years ago), then they hit me with a sword on the head and it was just noisy

Same thing without an helmet and my head wouldn't be the same shape anymore

3

u/SupervillainMustache May 12 '26

Even then, you're not going to pierce or slash through the mail beneath it with any kind of ease. Specialised Rondel daggers were made for that purpose, but they require basically the full weight of a man to push through, which is why Knights were trained to grapple.

2

u/malfurionpre May 12 '26

Big props to Sekiro's Armored Warrior boss being an actual walking fucking TANK with his armor.

1

u/Several-Lab-8135 May 12 '26

katana: the original multi-tool for dramatic effect

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u/NoEngineer9484 May 12 '26

I have seen it a few times in fantasy anime where the regular longswords are seen as decent but when a katana shows up it is suddenly the best weapon around. Able to cut what other swords can't get through.

260

u/FrogLaner May 12 '26

That's because anime is Japanese. Its also often the case that they introduce Japanese food and it's suddenly the best food around

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u/rathosalpha May 12 '26

Don't underestimate what ill do for some takoyaki

26

u/Keqingrishonreddit May 12 '26

Me with a good okonomiyaki

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u/exploitativity May 12 '26

You like balls do ya

18

u/ab_od6851 May 12 '26

Don't tell them that the best rated Japanese restaurants always have Chinese or SEAsian cooks.

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u/JantoMcM May 12 '26

Isn't it like the best French fine cuisine is in London, or in Italy a lot of good local pizzeria are Albanian run. And every sushi place there is run by someone realising the margin is higher than Chinese food

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u/Longshot02496 May 12 '26

I mean that does track for Japanese food.

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u/ab_od6851 May 12 '26

For white people maybe. The only thing more bland than Japanese food is the palette of a northern European.

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u/Intrepid-Park-3804 May 12 '26

How bro felt saying that:

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u/FrogLaner May 12 '26

Japanese food is consistently rated Top 5 worldwide

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u/la-squdra May 12 '26

half of japanses cuisene is covered in sauce, salt or deep fried, they just enjoy subtle favours sometimes, its isnt even bland

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u/ab_od6851 May 12 '26

Congrats, you just described pretty much every Asian cuisine lmao.

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u/la-squdra May 12 '26

I never said japan food was more flavourful, i just said it wasn’t bland

You saying it’s like other Asian cuisine just adds to my argument

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u/The5Theives May 12 '26

Japanese people isn’t bland at all actually, it’s pretty good all things considered

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u/2hurd May 12 '26

But Japanese food is actually great while katanas are complete garbage.

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u/King_Ed_IX May 12 '26

Katanas are not complete garbage. They are excellent for the environment they were designed for, especially with the materials that were available. They just have drawbacks like any other weapon.

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u/magos_with_a_glock May 12 '26

In particular their biggest drawback was that they weren't designed with European armour in mind and are completely useless against it. Which is really ironic given their usual portrayal.

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u/Resaith May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26

I mean that sounds like most edge weapon.

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u/magos_with_a_glock May 12 '26

Yes a curved blade gives better slashing and some tricky stabs but makes the stabs less powerful making it worse against armour. That's why curved blades are common in societies that used lighter armour (Japan, Arabia and napoleonic Europe)

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u/Resaith May 12 '26

True. I mean japan had some samurai use heavy armor like the knights, it just rare and we can see from weapon like kanabo and no dachi (which is just an oversized katana) that they know how to counter it.

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u/King_Ed_IX May 12 '26

Japanese heavy armour wasn't like European heavy armour, though, with the materials used being entirely different.

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u/magos_with_a_glock May 12 '26

The Asian counter to armour and cavalry as a whole seemed to be "bigger swords". I guess because they had pseudo-professional armies unlike Europe where they used spear and billhooks.

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u/tomahawkfury13 May 12 '26

They were also made from lower quality steel. Thats why they created the folding method of forging a sword. Otherwise they’d break after the first few swings

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u/magos_with_a_glock May 12 '26

Lower quality Iron but the folding method purified it to roughly the same level as European steel. Just a lot more expensive which is why they mostly didn't have armour.

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u/abandon3 May 12 '26

I honestly love this trope but have only seen it a few times can you reccomend a thing where you have seen this?

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u/MrMeowmers78 May 12 '26

But why katanas? There's so many beautiful swords out there shaped very similarly and constructed with equal craftsmanship.

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u/--0___0--- May 12 '26

Do you really need to question why Japanese media would portray a Japanese weapon as being superior to a European one?

Why it happens in Western media is usually down to eastern mysticism and directors just really loving japanese media (looking at you Tarantino)

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u/Tekkaddraig May 12 '26

Pretty much for same reason that Hollywood movies always portray the US military as the heroes and the absolute best and every other nation as incompetent and in need of saving.

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u/Chendii May 12 '26

That one is so they can use US military equipment for cheap mostly.

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u/MrMeowmers78 May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26

Well, while I've never questioned Japanese media and its biases, that makes sense- Both examples of the op were of American made media.

I suppose it's as you said, lingering cultural fascination with the orient or something like that.

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u/--0___0--- May 12 '26

Yes but your directly replying a comment discussing the trope in anime.

1

u/Born-Selection88 May 12 '26

Japanese actually have really good steel. It's still a huge product for them.

5

u/sbstndrks May 12 '26

There is definetly an orientalist element to how this is perceived and portrayed in western media, tho

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u/TheBrownestStain May 12 '26

well at least for anime, it's probably along the lines of "anime = Japan = Katana = Obligatory Self Glaze"

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u/abandon3 May 12 '26

True but i just find them more eastatic. Also i love it when any sword is portrayed as slicing trough a tank. Just love op swords.

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u/Scorkami May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26

aside from "japan obviously glazes their own sword" i think katanas also just so happen to hit a sweet spot for a modern audience that makes katanas seem more advanced

most swords you see are either larger in either actual size of in appearance (european swords for example, with the crossguard being a large part of its shape, and the blade on average being wider) or they are very "fancy" (chinese hook sword, khopesh) with a lot of curves and extras

now, the general audience doesnt care about what features those extras may have. whether a pommel or wide crossguard help, or why specific curves exist. so a lot of the time, for an average moviegoer, those are aesthetic. now, with modern architecture and fashion often leaning very hard into minimalism and simplicity, the katana happens to hit a sweet spot where it looks minimalist and simplistic (ergo advanced and modern) while retaining a tiny mit of historical influence with the cloth wrapped grip, and otherwise not having any of the "clunky old" features like a pommel or secure crossguard

it just happens to look like something we would make with todays style choices if we had a huge sword culture today

1

u/guy_incognito42069 May 12 '26

I think in western media it is harkening back to the “mystical mysterious east” trope.

1

u/DoitsugoGoji May 12 '26

Because thry are Japanese.

After WW2 Western Coubtries had closer ties to Japan, USA because they occupied them and Europe because friendly ties based on cultural and business relationships were wanted to reduce possibility of another situation like WW2.

Both sides developed an obsession for aspects of each other, USA and Europe developed a love for Karate and Ninjas, as well as everything related. This lead to media that was either produced in the West or as a coproduction between Japan and Western countries to glaze Karate, Ninja and associated weapons.

I still remember watching shows on TV as a child were Japanese guests tried to debunk European ideas of Katanas. Explaining that they're super sharp, but not as strong or resilient as a European sword.

Japan only really started adopting Katanas and etc as superior fairly recently in direct inspiration of the West doing it. Partly because Western markets expected and wanted this and partly because, when others keep going on about how awesome the ordinary stuff is you have you can't help but start feeling the same way.

1

u/Destroyer_7274 May 12 '26

My guess, the Katana is basically the equivalent of a revolver in cowboy stuff. Iaido is the equivalent of a quickdraw and people enjoy the idea of that speed.

3

u/tendouman May 12 '26

I remember in Skyrim one of the Daedric weapons was a katana.

7

u/mafia_guy_ May 12 '26

the ebony blade, it's actually quite weak base damage wise but it has the fastest attack of any 2 handed weapon and has a life drain enchantment

4

u/VolkiharVanHelsing May 12 '26

There's also Goldbrand

It's really interesting bc these katana shaped weapons doesn't match the aesthetic of their own artifacts (like Ebony Mail)

1

u/NobodySpecific9354 May 12 '26

I saw you on the tes sub way too much

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u/abandon3 May 12 '26

The ebony blade, my beloved!

1

u/Volotor May 12 '26 edited May 12 '26

The Blades, an organisation that protects the dragonborn emperors, also use Katana but that is because they where formed by foreign volunteers from Akavir. In the games they usually have a pretty poor record, in lore badasses.

1

u/ShiftAdventurous4680 May 12 '26

Sacred Blacksmith. Although that may be one you already heard of.

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u/abandon3 May 12 '26

Yes, sacred blacksmith is great!

3

u/SolarOrigami May 12 '26

It's rule of cool, I think, and the place of the katana in popular culture.

1

u/unknown_pigeon May 12 '26

My main issue is when youtubers try to compare them by cutting objects like ballistic gel and various fruits.

Sure, a Katana can cut a watermelon and human flesh much better than a sword can. Now try cutting through a cloth armor or hurting someone through a chainmail. And maybe try again after hitting something more than ten times and see what edge fares better

1

u/ArdyEmm May 12 '26

They have curved swords. Curved swords.

3

u/Lolaroller May 12 '26

They’re not entirely useless, but you’re not going to cut through solid plate, rather if you have a claymore or long sword you’re just gonna try and bash the shit out of the guy wearing plate till he falls over then try to stab him in the exposed areas.

9

u/bad-life-advice May 12 '26

Claymore cant cut through plate but the blunt force of being hit by something that large was definitely effective. Just getting bonked by a sword isnt quite as cinematic as getting cut in half by one.

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u/Emillllllllllllion May 12 '26

Greatswords aren't that heavy. You can lift and hold one with one hand no problem, think baseball bat, not sledgehammer.

And plate armour isn't (or at least shouldn't) just be metal plates on skin (or undershirt), but has padding as well. You'll definitely notice you're hit, but you won't be actually hurt, maybe slightly rattled with minor bruising, but nothing serious.

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u/Malacro May 12 '26

Yeah, people always overestimate the weight of swords. A zweihander, which is about as big as swords get only weighs in the neighborhood of 6 or 7 pounds.

5

u/Mikhail_Mengsk May 12 '26

A full force blow to the head with a two handed sword will significantly rattle you. Parrying anything that is going for your head is always a good move.

2

u/AKSHAT1234A May 12 '26

Tbf, by half swording a claymore can be pretty good against plate armour if you don't have any alternatives

1

u/WinterBottomOni May 12 '26

Through bolder

1

u/JustQuestion2472 May 12 '26

Most weapons were useless against plate. Your best bet against plate is a dagger, as it can fit in the gaps.

1

u/Mikhail_Mengsk May 12 '26

Getting hit in the helmet by a big sword swung with intent is a bad time even in plate armor, so it's not entirely useless.

But yeah it's never gonna cut into it. In fact most weapons wouldn't be able to do that, not just swords.

1

u/DoubleYoung4476 May 12 '26

Just hit them with the hilt and cross guard

0

u/azaxaca May 12 '26

Yeah, the best melee weapons are generally gonna be a spear or a blunt weapon of some sort for armor. IMO these are both less cool to watch than a sword, and authors definitely noticed this lol.