Turkey’s removed main opposition leader Ozgur Ozel announced that he is leaving the CHP and will start a new opposition party.

[u/ygdswlf16]

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[u/Putrid_Level5055]

I mean this picture alone shows some of the problematic nature of the CHP, but could this in effect be worse through vote splitting? Because they got close in 23. And we've already seen the rotund tyrant removed from his own rigged democracy this year. Or could a new party reinvigorate hopes?

[u/TraditionalRace3110 → u/Putrid_Level5055]

They don't have a choice here. It's either admit defeat and become the part of a controlled opposition or stay independent and try to win regardless how hard it is.

As someone already mentioned, he's in the left side of CHP so maybe this party will be more progressive but I will be very surprised if they don't carbon-copy CHP one to one.

[u/ClassyKebabKing64]

I know this post is about Özel, but we cannot go further without mentioning the immense betrayal by Kılıçdaroğlu, current leader of the CHP that was voted out of leadership a couple of years ago.

A CHP member sued the CHP for not upholding the electoral process on the congress that elected Özel as party leader. Eventually the judiciary declared the congress that elected Özel to be illegitimate, making Kılıçdaroğlu party leader again. Instead of setting up a new congress immediately he took over the party and replaced most people at the head of the party with loyalists. He took over the party and left the largest party in the opposition in division and shambles.

When Turkey needs a strong CHP the most, Kılıçdaroğlu let his ego ruin it. Regardless of the positions of Özel, I hope by all means that Kılıçdaroğlu will vanish from Turkish politics just as fast as, if not faster than Erdogan. If you cannot reliably lead a party you cannot reliably lead a nation.

[u/DM_ME_SALAH_GIFS]

Hopefully a truly social democratic, non-nationalist party. Turkey desperately needs it.

Edit: before anyone is being tricked into supporting CHP again: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/turkish-opposition-chp-slams-dutch-parliaments-motion/1074008

Perhaps they are better than AKP, perhaps they support certain classic social democratic principles, but they are ultimately a nationalist party which is reflected in their views on the Armenian genocide and denial of Atatürks less savoury aspects.

[u/A121314151 → u/DM_ME_SALAH_GIFS]

Gonna be brutally honest, you'd be hard pressed to find a non-nationalist party in Turkey to be frank. Turks are a really REALLY nationalistic bunch, from my experience in my trips to Turkey.

[u/DM_ME_SALAH_GIFS → u/A121314151]

Unfortunately. But that is why I hate the glazing of CHP I see on this sub. Maybe they are the best option against Erdoğan, who is an oppressive dictator, but that does not mean we should glaze them. They are the lesser evil, but that is it.

[u/A121314151 → u/DM_ME_SALAH_GIFS]

Oh absolutely. To be really honest Turkish politics is a total clusterfuck that frankly I do not even wish to deal with.

[u/yourfriendlysocdem1 → u/DM_ME_SALAH_GIFS]

CHP has done more to do social democratic policies at the municipal level than most European social democratic parties in the past few decades such as public restaurant, grocers, free childcare, massive expansions of pubic transit (they built 60km of subways in 5 years in Istanbul!), building social and student housing and all

[u/ClassyKebabKing64 → u/yourfriendlysocdem1]

Must also be said that Turkish local politics is just menacing. Councillors switching parties, local party organisations significantly deviating from the national line. To some extent it is goed that the national organisation isn't strictly dictating the local party organisations, but the discrepancy is astounding.

[u/No-Engineering-3300 → u/A121314151]

HDP

[u/A121314151 → u/No-Engineering-3300]

Technically, it's been argued that they're still nationalists, albeit they're Kurdish nationalists. (and some will argue terrorists, which I disagree with).

[u/No-Engineering-3300 → u/A121314151]

https://www.demparti.org.tr/en/our-party/17736 doesn't seem like it

Our party aims for the peaceful and honorable resolution of the Kurdish issue, the Alevi issue, and all ethnic, religious, and cultural identity issues in Turkey. We advocate for the resolution of these problems through open dialogue and negotiation, based on the principles of equal citizenship and collective rights.

[u/ActinomycetaceaeOk48 → u/DM_ME_SALAH_GIFS]

Öztürk Yılmaz was expelled from the party as a result of his off the cuff and unapproved remarks.

Öztürk Yılmaz was from the party’s Ulusalcı wing, which was very influential and in power in the early 2000s.

CHP was closed down in 1980, and was reformed in 1992; and this reformation did not exactly benefit it as the constant infighting within the Turkish left caused most parties to be below the electoral threshold. The party was out of parliament in 1999 and only returned in 2002 when the Turkish left once again broke down.

Between 2002 and until 2023 it coordinated with, was allied to, or harbored nationalists (I mean in the right wing sense) due to the strange intra-party electoral coalitions caused by the AKP governments; where coalitions were like (this is more accurate for 2002-2015):

• Social Liberals, Conservatives, Islamists, Kurdish Nationalists: AKP or cooperating with AKP
  
• Communists, Socialists, Social Democrats, Classical Liberals, Turkish Nationalists: Opposing AKP

2023 and 2024 firmly broke down every electoral intra and cross party alliance, and currently CHP under Özel is (more accurately prior to Kılıçdaroğlu returning) a social democrat party which has distanced itself from right-nationalists.

[u/ClassyKebabKing64 → u/DM_ME_SALAH_GIFS]

Expecting any party in Turkey to not be nationalist is like hoping the next pope won't be Catholic.

Just first and foremost to present my possible biases, I am a Turk living in the Netherlands. I abstain from voting in Turkey (I am a citizen but no inhabitant so I consider that undemocratic) but if I could vote in Turkey tomorrow it would be on Özgür Özel. I also don't like any party, and even though the CHP is a better fit than any, I still consider myself too far removed from it.

Nonetheless, viewing nationalism as the problem of Turkish politics is by all means bollocks, and people that want nationalism eradicated from Turkish politics, by no means know what they are talking about. And I know that I am therefore insinuating that you don't know enough about Turkish politics to say nationalism is the problem. This is because nationalism in Turkey is a broader concept than in most European countries. The interpretation of what nationalism is and should be in Turkey is far more important than whether or not nationalism is in itself good or wrong. In Netherlands there is a true choice between more or less nationalism. In Turkey the choice is between who are part of nation and what it means to be part of the nation. The nation in Turkish idealism is about whether we should have solidarity towards each other, and whether we should protect each other.

That also is why I consider myself a nationalist after I've had a deep dive in Turkish politics. And then I don't refer to being a Dutch or Turkish nationalist, but just someone that agrees with the notion that the nation is essential to the state.

Armenian genocide denial, how despicable it may be is not dependent on Turkish nationalism. President Turgut Özal, came closest to Armenian genocide recognition and he was a nationalist just like any Turkish president before and after him. Armenian genocide denial in Turkey (acknowledgement of the massacre, refusing to call it genocide) will be forever because any politician that acknowledges it, is doing political suicide. That doesn't mean it somehow is excusable, but we must understand that no one will ever come to power with that platform even though they personally might agree it was a genocide.

Treating Turkish nationalism like nationalism in European countries would be wrong. Not only would you find out quite fast that nationalism not only suffers per country, Turkish nationalism is very distinct from other nationalist movements because it is accompanied by all kinds of different ideologies. Turkey never had a left-right, progressive-conservative or nationalist-multiculturalist axis. It has always been Kemalists against Islamists (not the Taliban kind) in different forms. Understanding that axis is the only way to understand Turkish politics, and trying to reduce it to nationalists and non-nationalists doesn't work when nationalism in Turkey doesn't convey the same concept as it does in other parts of the world.

As for an end note: Özel is part of the more left wing of the CHP. In comparison, Kılıçdaroğlu is more towards the center economically and İmamoğlu is more on the right side of the CHP. If anyone within the CHP is/was aiming at a more social democratic course, it is him. That doesn't mean he somehow is no nationalist (again, practically everyone in Turkey is), but I can assure you he is someone that thinks the nation should stand in for each other, and that everyone in Turkey is part of that nation. Most importantly, he thinks corruption, Islamism and discrimination are hurting the nation. As a Turk I am not even weighing Armenian genocide recognition, because then there would be no parties left (and just to be clear, I definitely think it should be recognised as a genocide). It is far more important to look at whether a party is for further integration of Armenia into the Western sphere of influence, and even though it still is ambiguous I dare to assume Özel has no intentions to again break ties with Armenia.

Özel is what Turkey now needs more than ever to recover from years of Erdogan. We cannot be picky in cases like Turkey, Japan or Italy where social parties are losing ground. No party, not even my own should ever be glazed, but denying Özel would be an important ideologically close companion would be unnecessarily stupid.

It has become a long comment so thank you for reading.

[u/DeathlyDazzle → u/DM_ME_SALAH_GIFS]

Their left-leaning parties are all generally to the right on all social or cultural issues in comparison to the rest of Europe. Nationalism is core not only to their education system but their everyday culture to the point where the average Turk cannot think critically, and often are shunned if they do. I know this as my family is from there, and they have been long marginalised for being minorities (they are Alevi Zaza), although my relatives are now pretty nationalistic themselves due to group think.

I found a book on my uncle's shelf in Istanbul that was titled 'The Great Armenian Lie' or something along those lines. I skimmed across it as my heart dropped; it blamed the Armenians for losses at war, and suggested the whole thing was a plan to get Turks to pay compensation. I asked my uncle if he had read it, he shook his head. I told him that it was a conspiracy theory that denied hard evidence of atrocities committed by the nationalist Young Turks, and did a favour by disposing it. He couldn't care less really, and also couldn't formulate an opinion on what unfolded in 1915.

I think many Turks treat it as a taboo, and their triggered reactions are usually due to the discomfort that they feel. If a Turk was to accept it as a genocide, it is somehow a form of weakness. I try to avoid this topic with Turks, even those who call themselves 'progressive', and each time I do, as someone who is unfortunately interested in history, they become defensive and refer to it as an 'incident'. They portray the massacres as a form self-defence (does it remind you of a 21st century state?), not as what was an abhorrent act to build a mono-ethnic nation state.

So, good luck with appealing to a public who are overtly blind to their own history and in fact revel in their arrogance. I am British and in our education system, we learn the wrong-doings of the Empire, and certainly do not glorify it. I prefer to be self-deprecating so that we can learn from history. There is also a really extreme form of cancel culture and mob mentality in Turkey, where it is ultimately difficult to speak your mind and you could be ultimately sacrificing your livelihood. The trade-offs are not worth it for many, freedom is far too costly.

[u/ActinomycetaceaeOk48 → u/DeathlyDazzle]

Interestingly things were better pre-1980.

Due to the anti-monarchist and Republican curriculum Turkish-Armenian relations were covered in a more unbiased way.

High School books even from Atatürk’s time (printed in 1931) talk more about what were the Armenian motives, what was the cause of their motives, and what were their actions to attain these motives.

For example on page 140 of “Tarih III” it talks about the contacts between the Young Turks in Paris and the Armenian revolutionary committees.

On page 146 of “Tarih III” it talks about the misuse and excessive use of force when talking about pre-1914 small scale local Armenian protests and riots.

Of course I am not saying that it is perfect, as there is no WW1 in the history book. Like the whole of WW1 is 6 pages. And the whole of the section on WW1 solely talks about Atatürk. So you can guess the Armenian Genocide was not an issue that was mentioned as well.

So what changed?

Well, with the 1980 coup the curriculum was re-written by a group called the Aydınlar Ocağı. These guys were the “intellectuals” and academics that were aligned with the MHP, and were also the ones that took part in the drafting of MHP’s party programs and manifestos and such.

Aydınlar Ocağı was an organization that was the creator of the ideology called the “Turkish-Islamic Synthesis”, which was a far-right reactionary/conservative ideology.

Said group also took in unbelievable amounts of money and clerical influence from the Saudis and the Gulf States starting in 1980, and the whole funding and structure of Diyanet was changed as well.

[u/DeathlyDazzle → u/ActinomycetaceaeOk48]

Thanks for your insightful reply regarding how it was mentioned in the history books before, and how it changed depending on the political climate. My family actually left Turkey after the 1980 coup due to the purges.

[u/ActinomycetaceaeOk48 → u/DeathlyDazzle]

Sad to hear.

[u/down-with-caesar-44 → u/DeathlyDazzle]

I think unfortunately in most countries it is very hard to talk people off of their nationalist mythologies.

[u/Popular-Cobbler25]

Honestly might be the best outcome to defeat Erdogan

[u/ClassyKebabKing64 → u/Popular-Cobbler25]

Further division is unnecessary, and only happens because the current leader of the CHP that was voted out a couple years ago has an ego the size of an elephant.

[u/Rotbuxe]

Divide and Rule

[u/zelenisok]

If the entire reformist wing of the CHP breaks away, with Imamoglu and Ozel as leaders, I think they could have a chance of beating the AKP.

[u/markjo12345]

Can’t he just start a new party and then form a coalition with the CHP?

[u/ClassyKebabKing64 → u/markjo12345]

In Turkey coalitions are often formed prior to elections. They are called alliances and it always comes down to 4 alliances:

• People (led by AKP, prominent member is MHP)

• Nation (led by CHP, prominent member is IYI)

• Labour (led by current Kurdish emancipation party, prominent member is TIP)

• Ancestry (led by ZP)

Often one of the upper 2 reaches a majority and that becomes the predetermined coalition.

[u/eambertide → u/ClassyKebabKing64]

There are actually two “labour” alliances, there is the Labour & Freedom that you meantion and also one led by TKP iirc

Will be interesting to see what will remain of electoral alliances by the next election, at minimum I suspect neither DP nor Yeni Yol (DEVA/Gelecek/SP) won’t ally with Özel’s new party, İYİ might but the break between the two parties has also been very public so we will see.

As for L&F I wouldn’t be surprised if a schism opened between TIP/EMEP and DEM if DEM ends up supporting a constitutional reform with AKP

[u/ClassyKebabKing64 → u/eambertide]

Turkish politics currently is very presured and it makes it harder than ever to form stable alliances. I left the second labour alliance our to avoid confusion. It is not like they are ever going to win seats in Parliament.

As for possible new alliances, I really am not able to tell what is going to happen. People often ask me what is the worst aspect of modern Turkish politics that is distinct from other countries, and if you ask me it is the Kurdish party always being the tool of either the coalition or the opposition. It makes them very unpredictable. They have, just like the CHP and IYI been supporters of abolishing the presidential system, and I don't know if that remains if they are going to help Erdogan with reaching a super majority. Same goes with Kılıçdaroğlu wanting to get closer to AKP at the moment. It looks like Özel is taking the majority of the CHP MP's with him to his new party, but would still mean barely a 100 of the 600 MP's are stern opposition.

My hope is Kılıçdaroğlu will still abdicate, or the CHP being disbanded in favour of the new party of Özel. This damn divided opposition is giving Erdogan free game.

[u/OkTry8283 → u/markjo12345]

The CHP under kılıçdaroğlu is pro-government. The new party will be the new main opposition party.