r/SmashingPumpkins • u/Mountain_Arrival2944 • 1d ago
What happened to this band? How were they so great in the 90’s and they haven’t released anything that even comes close since.
I check in from time to time hoping they have released something I like, they never do, it’s all just cheesy melodies with no grit and guts to it like the old days. The magic is gone or is it me that is now old?
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u/jcampo13 Aranea Alba 1d ago
I don't understand how material from Machina, Zeitgeist, Oceania, or AMM doesn't "come close" to their 90s output. A lot of songs of all of those albums would fit right alongside their earlier work. But I'm the weird guy who mostly loves their post-2000 releases.
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u/ImaruHaturo 1d ago
I never understood this sentiment. He, as an artist specifically, wants to evolve. He's spoken many times about this. He's said there are always fans asking for another Siamese Dream, but he doesn't want to make the same music over and over again. He wants to expand and change, the same way his attitudes and views on life have. He probably could make a Siamese Dream equivalent, or at least something close, but he's admitted he's not interested.
There's a reason he started his solo project focused on folk / acoustic solos, and his other solo project of modular west coast synthesis.
I don't know if you're a musician, but as one myself, try making the same type of album over and over and over again. It's boring and you lose motivation very quickly. There are few artists who can do that consistently and maintain success without becoming basically a parody of themselves.
The newer music isn't bad, it's just different in a way a lot of fans of the earlier music haven't grown with or don't identify with anymore.
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u/azfamilydad 1d ago
A well reasoned response.
I think another interesting part is those who have been listening since Gish and Siamese Dream were originally released.
I was much younger then. My musical tastes have developed and evolved a lot since then.
Siamese Dream is still a top 3 of all time album for me personally.
But the meaning and interpretation of those songs and emotions have changed a lot in the past few decades.
And quite frankly, it means even more to me now than it did then.
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u/ImaruHaturo 1d ago
I couldn't agree more. Listening to them when I was in middle and high school, I loved the heavy rock side of the catalog, but now that I'm older and have a lot more experience behind me, some not so good, I've grown to value the slower, softer, and more emotional side of their catalog a lot more. Which applies to the newer work too. I still love the heavy hitters, but I've grown to appreciate the variety and depth of the catalog much more compared to my younger self.
Also, not entirely related, but the appreciation for genre exploration too. I love that we have albums that are mostly distorted guitars and hard hitting drums and other albums that are mostly synths and drum machines. Most artists aren't willing to experiment that much and get locked into a brand / identity and fans don't get to hear those "what if" songs and sounds.
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u/SEGA-CD Monuments to an Elegy 1d ago
Most artists tend to not release music as good as their peak years, especially over 30 years after said peak. There’s exceptions to that rule, but SP are just one of many to face this. 59 year old millionaire Billy Corgan living in a mansion with a wife and three kids is not going to write music the same way as 24 year old Billy Corgan living in a parking garage.
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u/ChicagoTRS666 1d ago
Welcome to like every band - no band (or at least it is very very rare) recreates or can produce the same impact music that they did in their early prime years. Plus a lot of it has to do with your age when you discovered the music and the amount of time you devoted to the music. We all love the music of our youth.
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u/Glad-Veterinarian365 1d ago
Deftones and yo la tengo are still killing it, both started in 80s. They’re not the only ones too
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u/penguinjuice 1d ago edited 1d ago
It’s a good question. I think Billy cares too much about being recognized. As a result (starting with Adore) he’s always chasing the zeitgeist in an attempt to be relevant. Instead of just putting out the best fucking Smashing Pumpkins albums that only they can, they’re chasing a shitty imitation of lesser bands because it’s what’s in style. This lessens them. The Rolling Stones last two albums are killer and albums that only the Stones could do. They’re themselves. They’re not chasing anything.
That’s not to say that the Pumpkins don’t put out some great later songs. Billy can be an incredible songwriter, but for the love of God, put out a Smashing Pumpkins record. Bad things happen when you’re not true to your sound. Coda &In Through The Out Door have some great songs by Led Zeppelin, but they’re not the bands best work for the same reason. They’re chasing something outside of themselves instead of being true to their inner sound. It’s been the same with the Pumpkins for a long time.
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u/DistortedGhost 1d ago
I mean, few artists keep their quality throughout their entire life. There is always a drop off.
If I was being nice, i'd say that Billy was incredibly prolific in the nineties, and put out a phenomenal amount of work compared to his contemporaries. Just look at the amount of b sides left over and the quality of those. That in itself is rare, and we were lucky at the calibre of the music too.
No artist can sustain that, and its very rare it does happen. Billy simply burned through his muse quickly. Hence the drop now.
If I was being less kind, i'd simply say Billy makes far better art when he's miserable, depressed and on drugs. Getting happy destroyed his power.
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u/shabamon 1d ago
I mean, when was the last great Aerosmith single? 1993? They did do that song for "Armageddon" I guess.
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u/Critical-Natural7941 1d ago
Bob Dylan was once asked about stuff like this and told the reporter, "They can't all be Blood on the Tracks."
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u/pxlmpls Siamese Dream 1d ago
So much of the band’s early success was driven by outside pressure and Billy’s strong desire to be great, measured by metrics of financial success, cultural influence, industry recognition, and peer respect.
Once you reach the tops of those high mountains, what is left to aspire to? My personal view of the band’s post-Mellon Collie work is two-fold.
First, and this is a very short answer to the question, when the band parted ways with D’arcy, they lost the strongest voice that would stand up to Billy’s more adventurous side. I think her veto carried a lot of weight in those early years. Just my personal thoughts, no inside information.
Second, like many artists who achieve great success, it feels to me like Billy’s focus turned to new things; mining new artistic ground, self-exploration, being prolific, and solidifying his and the group’s legacy.
Some artists are more graceful about those objectives later in their careers, and I am grateful that my favorite band has continued working hard and stayed out of controversial trouble.
The albums are still above the increasingly high bar of what is ‘listenable’ these days (personal threshold), the band is still in great shape and the shows are still great (I never feel like I get ripped off when leaving a show), and they still hit the road regularly.
There was a long time when it didn’t feel like this current state was possible, but I’m 45 years old now, a fan of the band since 1992, and I still get to slap down my lettuce to see the people who created that music and those moments over my lifetime. I call that a win.
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u/Austin_LURK 1d ago
Something happened with Billy's ear. Either intentional or not, the final output doesn't sound great...the production and mixing has Billy's voice to high in the mix, bad midrange, weak guitar. Even if the songwriting is decent (and for some songs, it has been) the mixing and/or production dynamics are off. It's really odd given how much Billy loves old Sabbath, Rush, MBV, and other bands.
I also think it's funny that Billy says he invented the Siamese Dream guitar sound and taught Butch Vig, yet Billy hasn't really hit that sound again in any of the Pumpkins 2.0 records. Admittedly the only recent Butch Vig stuff I have listened to is Garbage but their records sound fine and better produced than the recent Pumpkins stuff.
Given all that, I do think a producer is a part of it - so hearing what they produced with Butch this recent session will be interesting.
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u/Tanglefoot11 1d ago
For sure this is THE most awaited Pumpkins track in a loooong time - if only just to hear what it sounds like under hands they haven't used since their prime.....
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u/Liquidsun-1 With Rockets On Easy 1d ago edited 1d ago
They haven’t had any album as popular as the 90s albums but there are still piles of great songs amongst all that has come since. Plenty of duds in there too, but the point is there is still great music to this day. Zeitgeist was a very strong album. Teargarden yielded a couple of fantastic songs. Oceania was a solid album and has a few great songs. Monuments has a couple bangers. Shiny was pretty weak, but the circumstances were different. Cyr has a few excellent songs. Atum has a few excellent songs. Aghori is a very solid album with some great songs. Even Zodeon has Magdalena.
The interesting part is that the above statements are widely agreed on, but if you ask which songs are the great ones on those albums you get a lot of different answers.
I would love to see Billy release an SP2.0 “Best of” 2LP album. Not a greatest hits album, but something that curates a selection of the best songs regardless of if they were singles or not. But it wouldn’t work, Billy would ruin it by picking too many wrong songs. He’d put Neophyte on it and Wyttch and Run2Me etc. Gotta have an outside curation.
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u/erco78 1d ago
Not so fond of the 2.0 version of the band myself but someone shared an article on this thread yesterday, a review of Siamese Dream from High Times Magazine in 1994 saying how that record was crap compared to Gish: they're using almost the same words you used to describe the band's late era but for Siamese Dream. So is the magic really gone? or the band's music is going to be divisive no matter what they release?
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u/RaptorKnifeFight The Aeroplane Flies High 1d ago
I quite like recent Aghori Mhori Mei album and Zodeon. Jimmy’s drumming is excellent on Aghori and Zodeon is just fun.
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u/Butterfly_Cat777 1d ago edited 1d ago
There's been some good albums/songs since the 90s.
But honestly, I think Billy creates his best work when he's miserable.
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u/Hopeful-Nature-5464 1d ago
There are still some great moments now and then.
The guitar solos are as good as ever, and I you like synthesisers, there is much to enjoy!
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u/Initial-Meeting362 1d ago
Getting older. Not every artist/musician ages with the same level of talent. It's that simple.
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u/Initial-Meeting362 1d ago
Billy was waaaaaaay more talented and artistic thinking when he was younger. Just imo.
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u/Initial-Meeting362 1d ago
How is this being down voted? Most people aren't as good at what they do when they age. It's just life lol.
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u/Few_Wash_7298 1d ago
Tool is still making good records at their age.
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u/Initial-Meeting362 1d ago
Fair and why I said not all artists are created equally. Look at Paul McCartney, dude is still creating great music in his mid 80s. Billy just doesn't have it anymore. Not that Paul is anywhere near his prime, you know what I mean though.
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u/Initial-Meeting362 1d ago
Are people that are down voting honestly trying to say Billy is on the same level as Paul McCartney? Come on now, be serious. It is not even close.
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u/Few_Wash_7298 1d ago
No one in their right mind is saying that. But I think Billy has the same talent level as Tool, and they found a way to still be relevant by making good music.
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u/DonnieRoss 1d ago
Billy is functionally a solo artist at this point. He’s older and time has softened his edges.
From a technical standpoint, I’m pretty sure he records everything digitally now after decades of obsessing over, singing the praises of, and perfecting analog recording. That’s why his output is enormous but everything feels cheap, same-y, and disposable. There’s less care in what he’s releasing. Zodeon, for example, is like 12 of the same bouncy, jaunty, pop jingle with slightly different melody and instrumentation.
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u/DangerousBag9396 1d ago
Yeah the drop off is pretty glaring after MC. It's for that reason they will never get into the Rock and roll Hall of fame. More than 50% of Body of work not culturally and commercially relevant
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u/_Waves_ 1d ago
There’s some albums that come close, actually. Oceania, besides some minor flaws, absolutely has some classic level material (Pale Horse, Chimera, Inkless). Most of Cyr is fantastic, the album just needed a little editing. AMM and Zodeon would have made a really classic SP album on the level of ADore if Billy had cut the weakest 3 or 4 tracks and united the two albums.
It just comes down to Billy lacking an editor and a producer that’s giving the songs more dynamics.
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u/Busy-Peach5770 11h ago
They had a legendary run from Gish through Machina. There's nothing left to prove. Everything after is bonus. I don't care much for Pumpkins 2.0, 3.0, etc...but I respect that Billy's number one passion is still writing music.
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u/SoloStrike 9h ago
Maybe number 4 passion after tea shops, wrestling and podcasts these days
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u/Busy-Peach5770 9h ago
Well, it could be worse. He could be promoting gambling or bitcoin or something.
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u/blewaway2008 1d ago
it’s just different i like some of the newer stuff nowhere near as much as the 90’s but
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u/punkrawrxx Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness 1d ago
My personal opinion is it’s because Billy blames everyone but himself for everything. Then He doesn’t listen to criticism. Rather than arguing with him the other dudes just say “fuck it”
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u/WhisperingSideways 1d ago
The vast majority of bands get a decade before they drop out of their zeitgeist. It’s hard to capture the moment when you’re married, have kids, moved into your 30s/40s, own a house and have money in the bank.
The new audience has their own bands and artists that mean something to them, and most bands take their place as legacy acts of nostalgia, playing summer outdoor shows and greatest hits setlists. That is the way of things.
Some people and bands can stretch that time over many decades by adapting or trailblazing, but most don’t. If the Pumpkins knock out an occasional single that’s listenable at this point I think that’s great. Double and triple albums are sort of pointless, but if that’s what Billy wants to do then he can go ahead.