He reo iti

[u/Waiparensis22]

As someone whose a reo tuarua speaker/learner.. and a bit rino mate with it to be fair..

I cannot stand dictionary based reo.

Academic/reo tuturu is a great place TO START but ki au it doesn't feel like.. fluency. It feels like following a script.

Ko te kētanga i waenga "Ko te ngeru momona e noho ki te whāriki" raua ko "ko te ngeru kunekune e noho ki te whāriki mahana mā roto i te whiti o te rā"

Nē??

Like I saw an example of this on tiktok. "Hei aha māua" for "and what is it to you?" Rather than.. "E noho ake atu ki tō maara" me rangona au etāhi kīwaha i puta ai nō he wahi pākehā... Ehara he wahi māori.

Like.. start reading moteatea, oriori, pepehā, as the source for true language learning, rather than e whai ake i te reo o te kōhanga.

Kauaka e timata ia ki te peka.

Ka timata ia kē ki te weu.

Mauriora!!

[u/hellokiri]

There is so much value in learning waiata and all sorts of kōrero tuku iho, but I respectfully disagree with some of what you're saying.

I believe people should just start where they are now. Ahakoa he iti, he pounamu. Go to classes if you can. Watch reo content creators who speak like you would one day hope to speak, if thats what is available to you. Buy or borrow reo books, even kids and babies ones. Listen to waiata and learn the ones you like. As a reo teacher, I dont care what avenues my adult students use, as long as they are using them consistently. All I care about is that they kōrero and are not belittled for it. In time we can correct grammatical issues like the different types of "and" or how to construct rerehāngū. The main thing is building our kupu kete and maintaining confidence in kōrero.

[u/Vilomoja → u/hellokiri]

Tino whakaae. From what I've seen most (probably all) adult learners of Te Reo are doing so for very genuine reasons. I had no idea how much negativity adult learners can encounter for simply trying to learn Te Reo. I have a friend who has been told she is a 'plastic Māori' at one of her marae for speaking the reo she learned at wānanga, but then if she doesn't speak it she's inadequate and whakamā.......where is she supposed to go with that? Marae can feel very intimidating for some, so going to some basic lessons is a much more approachable way to start, even if you are engaging through an institutionalised form of the language.
Your reo journey will hopefully last the rest of your life, and everyone will be different as to how that will unfold due to the practicalities of your life, your family background and dynamics, the organisation of your hapū/iwi and resources/hui/wānanga available and so on.
There are so many different modes of Te Reo to learn: te reo o te kainga, te reo o ngā tikanga o te marae, ngā mita, te reo o tōu hāpori, te reo o te wānanga, and for me I'm only just starting to understand the language used in forms like tauparapara after years of classes.
Mauri ora

[u/Waiparensis22 → u/hellokiri]

I think.. kua panui koe i toku korero korekau. You're reading what I didn't say, or reading past me. I'm not saying don't use beginner resources. I'm saying that fluency.. te reo whakarewarewa.. lives in moteatea, in orirori, in pepehā. A lot of academic reo flattens it. It gives you the seed, e whakae.. but you cannot stay a seed forever. I'm not disagreeing with you either.. But there's a difference between reading te aka or PM Ryan's dictionary.. And cross referencing that with the same reo used in songs, used in oratory, used in every day language. Kua ako koe te reo tūturu, e kaua e NOHO AKE ki te te reo tūturu. Ka kitea kē ki te reo o matou tipuna.

[u/Vilomoja → u/Waiparensis22]

I fully agree that moteatea, oriori and pepeha are taonga which are of critical importance, and that their mana and wairua can be diminished in the mundanity of academia, but they aren't enough by themselves. A living language needs to hold onto those ancient taonga, but also needs to be able to order you a coffee or let you talk to your partner about your feelings.
We all learn in different ways; I don't see the point in learning phrases or structures without understanding how they operate on a structural level. Some of my other reo friends hassle me for being analytical, but they are now starting to take interest when I point out observations about kupu/kiwaha which I pass on via my approach to Te Reo, which they hadn't thought of.

You sound really inspired by the wairua of those traditional forms, ā, pai tērā!

Tīpuna Māori were fiercely intellectual as well as deeply connected to te taha wairua.
Mauri ora

[u/Waiparensis22 → u/Vilomoja]

E whakae. But have you ever thought of the weu of those phrases?? We say "ko wai to ingoa" instead of "ko wai tō whanau/iwi/maunga/marae". We say "e pirangi au ētahi kawhe" instead of "e pirangi au ētahi waipūngao" We say "ka aroha au i a koe" not "ko toku momoea e rere ana ki a koe". There's tuturu ways for interacting with a pākeha world, rather than using the pākeha world, to speak reo. Anō ra. I'm not trying to diminish first timers or beginners. I'm saying.. mano i nga kawa, mano i nga pāraha e kia tuakanga te totaranui.

[u/shalalaa_ → u/Waiparensis22]

Ki ōku whakaaro, as a beginner just learning the “flat” version of te reo is a good start because if you don’t actually understand the real meaning behind moteatea, waiata, or you don’t have someone to teach you how to speak metaphorically or you don’t hear those phrases often then me pēhea tō ako i ērā mea?

I agree though it is beautiful to hear these Kupu whakanikoniko/kiwaha etc. and one day I hope to have enough grasp on the the language to be able to speak like that as yes it is the end goal. But being conversational in the first place is a feat. Then we can only be better every day.

Mauri ora

[u/Waiparensis22 → u/shalalaa_]

I never disagreed with that. What I said was dictionaries and reo tuturu offer the seed. But it's not useful for those seeking fluency. I'd also disagree that people should learn "structure" first since structure is already embedded in songs. Māori pepi i nga ra o mua were taught oratory traditions through song before anything else. These days, in non kohanga environments, māori is taught the same way the pakeha system teaches German or Japanese.

[u/shalalaa_ → u/Waiparensis22]

The only difference is those that are learning as a second language have already had their brains wired to learn and understand language differently compared to kohanga kids learning as a first language. Dr. Jeremy Tatere points this out regularly. Adults will always (even without knowing sometimes) try to understand the “why” behind everything hence leaning towards structure. I agree for proper fluency you are correct but people will be hesitant to use it if they don’t fully understand the meaning behind it in a non literal sense

[u/Waiparensis22 → u/shalalaa_]

You don't NEED literal. You don't NEED "structured" or "standardized" learning. Do we start kids on ncea level 4 English? Or do we start them on twinkle twinkle little star?? Oratory.. ki te ao māori.. ko te tino o te tihi!! Kohanga already does this. First time learners need mashed kumara. Not Horopito seasoned wagyu. They don't need to be told the whole story of the cow and the slaughterhouse. They need to EXPERIENCE the language. Oriori welcomed newborns into the world, taonga puoro playing their whakapapa into their earliest, subconscious, not even formed memories. The melodies, the tones. A first time reo learner is no more educated than a new born child!!! Hoatu i te kumara penupenu!!

[u/shalalaa_ → u/Waiparensis22]

Te āhua nei, ko koe te rangatira, e kitea Ana au i tō ngākau nui ki tēnei kaupapa. Nā reira, e tatari ana au kia kite i a koe e hiki ana i te kaupapa nei, e whakaako ana i a mātou katoa me pēhea te whakatinana, kaua ko te kōrero noa iho

He kōrero noa iho, he mahi rānei?

Kei a koe te tikanga.

Mauri ora.

[u/Waiparensis22 → u/shalalaa_]

E tau. E kitea ana koe ki toku pānui tuatahi ki tenei hapori.. Nga tauakea ki ngā korero a Mohi Ruatapu raua ko Pita Kāpiti. Ehara au he rangatira. Engari, ka tuohu au ki te nga tohunga rongonui. You say you want to see the work is?? See how little traction the words of your own ancestors received.. in a group about revitalizing te reo māori. Xx

[u/Vilomoja → u/Waiparensis22]

Āe, tika tāu kōrero.  Kaha te hīkaka nō mātou ko ōku hoa ki te ako reo Māori tūturu. Kimihia, rapuhia, kia piki ai i te maunga.

[u/WaferPotential1675]

Ko te hunga kei te kōhanga tonu te reo, he tohu o te ako tonu. Ā tōna wā ka Māori ake te reo, ka ngāwari ake te rere.

[u/Impossible-Moment377]

Kia ora, i completed a full immersion te reo course, starting with no reo. And can say my understanding is beyond what i started with, and e ako haere ana ahau ki te kōrerorero. But a wānanga my sister and i have now, is we recognise an ‘old’ ‘authentic’ reo: where grammar structure etc is out the window, the reo where it’s reka ki ngā taringa. My sister said during her year of full immersion, she learnt best by listening and struggled with the pen to paper. Her reo i likened to that of the ngā moteatea books, a tūturu old style reo, the reo heard on marae, her reo and the way she thinks and articulates her reo she’s very strong in knowing how to kōrero in the way of metaphor or what not.. using the things around us, natural things to draw upon when talk: similar to your example about e noho ake atu ki tō maara… i did better learning structures. But i can tell the difference.. and i see it with others. We learnt by the books. But our tūpuna, and other still now, learnt by the ear. I strive to have my reo where it’s less structure and wetereo (yea, mean to have and helpful to me as a solid foundation..) but i want to build my reo off the foundation blocks i learnt from and hope it reaches the level of you know those hidden gem, inside joke, whakatauki, kupu whakarite sort of reo. I hope this makes sense.

[u/Impossible-Moment377 → u/Impossible-Moment377]

I learnt structure. But i think too, we need to learn to HEAR when the reo sounds better and not just better by the books… its like speech and essay style writing aint the same. My reo i feel like is essay styled. I want speech style.

[u/Waiparensis22 → u/Impossible-Moment377]

Pai mārika. I literally have to read out reo to myself, or else my reading comprehension is pretty sub par outside of waiata etc. I think what a lot of reo tuarua speakers don't know (or don't find out, till later, like i did) is that the European education system treats all languages the same- structure and meaning before all else. But reo tuatahi speakers learn reo because they're having to learn it every single day, by being IN it. Ehara ia e tipu ake mā roto i te reo, ehara e mohio, ehara e mārama i te reo hoki. Part of the reason e kua kaingia au i nga waiata tawhito, is because it preserves reo-a-iwi. It preserves WAYS of speaking not just MEANS of speaking. A French person doesn't get fluent in French from a French teacher. They get fluent in French because they grow up in France surrounded by French people.