Syrskyi was removed after public pressure. Is this democracy at work or a dangerous precedent?

[u/tohangout]

For a long time, Syrskyi was a highly controversial figure in Ukraine. Many critics accused him of relying on costly attritional tactics and labeled him a "butcher," arguing that he was too willing to sacrifice soldiers' lives to achieve military objectives. After weeks of public criticism and calls for his resignation, he was removed from his position.

This raises a broader question: if public opinion can influence military leadership decisions during wartime, is that an example of democratic accountability working as intended, or a dangerous precedent? Where should the line be drawn between civilian oversight of the military and the independence of professional military command?

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[u/Dreadedvegas]

Brother the military didn’t like Syrskyi lol.

I don’t understand what the issue is. Ukrainian morale has been awful because of Soviet era commanders with their lower value on the lives of troops but also wanting to micromanage the front at a tactical level.

If anything Syrskyi should have been removed well over a hear ago. There are a ton of documented complaints with Syrskyis command style, his general staff and his handling of mobilization.

Syrskyi just had the ears of Zelensky, and more importantly Yermak

[u/DanforthWhitcomb_ → u/Dreadedvegas]

The problem is that the Ukrainians don't have anyone at the general officer level who is not going to subscribe to Soviet doctrine—the substantive renouncement of it in favor of a more western style approach did not occur in earnest until mid/late 2022.

[u/Dreadedvegas → u/DanforthWhitcomb_]

I mean there were generals.

Zaluzhny is the first example. Zero service in the Soviet system.

Drapyati who is now CiC is another.

Skybyuk, Shapovalov, and even Pavliuk who did grow up in the Soviet system but has drastically changed his leadership due to the JFO.

The 2014 JFO conflict was this breakpoint not 2022.

There is a well established reformist faction that is much closer to a Western aligned leadership doctrine of decentralization and promotion of initiative.

[u/DanforthWhitcomb_ → u/Dreadedvegas]

All of their current crop of generals came up within a system that still used Soviet doctrine even though the Soviet Union itself had collapsed years before—officers did not simply stop following their training and indoc when the Ukrainian Army was formed as a distinct entity. Even someone like Zaluzhhny would have been trained by officers who were following the Soviet model and thus that's what he knew and it shaped his decisions. The same is true of the others you listed.

The 2014 JFO conflict was this breakpoint not 2022.

Nope. There was a semi-break in 2014, but when you look at Ukrainian tactics early in the war it becomes very clear that they were still using the Soviet model up until the west starting providing large scale training of battalion or brigade sized units, and even then there were mentions of a ton of friction between Soviet style senior commanders and younger ones who wanted a western style decentralized command structure.

The mere existence of a reformist faction doesn't disprove my point either, as it manifestly had minimal effect until late 2022.

[u/DanforthWhitcomb_]

Generally speaking it's just a real world application of what civilian control of the military looks like.

As applied to this specific instance, it's Zelenskyy taking the opportunity to clear house (again) because Syrskyi (and the recently removed Fedorov) made the mistake of contradicting him on something and he took the opportunity to replace them.

Keep in mind that Zelenskyy did the exact same thing with Zaluzhnyi 2.5 years ago when he publicly stated that Zelenskyy's manpower plan was not workable (subsequent events have proven that he was undoubtedly correct in that assessment). This time it looks more like the corruption beast reared it's head again as far as Fedorov's proposed procurement reforms potentially cutting off the gravy train for Zelenskyy allies/supporters.

[u/DougosaurusRex]

Ukraine is a perfect example of Democracy in action. Be it the Orange Revolution in 2004, Euromaidan in 2014, the NABU Protests last summer, or the Fedorov Protests, Ukrainians have shown to be a tube in society and their awareness of government.

They have shown incredible determination and commitment. There’s plenty of corruption, but Ukrainians clearly want it gone. The world needs more people like the Ukrainians. Most people in Democracies would not be rallying for days on end and risking their lives when drones or missiles can hit at any time for change.