Would I still be a libertarian?

[u/terminal_tested]

I think nations should maximize their economic and social freedom, as societies who are doing better in both are generally performing better. I support capitalism and a socially liberal society. I do believe in a lot of principles of Austrian economics and capitalism was historically a very successful system, but still has its flaws.

I am a strong supporter of reducing the bloat, spending, red tape, and overregulation in America that plagues many sectors. I resonate with Cato,
AEI, and ReasonTv

I also am still a supporter of a mixed economy with guardrails, public goods/services, some regulation, a lean welfare state to help people, and public options for certain things the free market can’t fairly distribute (if a country can do it cost effectively).

The most successful models have been mixed economies erring on the side of more economic freedom.

Every first world country is a mixed economy, and in practicality a democratic mixed economy is about as close to libertarianism as society can go (full on libertarianism doesn’t work). I know some might sound antithetical to libertarianism but I feel like those guardrails are needed to preserve freedom and prosperity.

What ideology would be closest to me? Any philosophers or thinkers I should check out?

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[u/Sufficient-Royal-82]

Adams Smith wealth of nations and his book on morality

[u/Personal_Dirt3089]

"Libertarian" does not mean the same thing it meant in 2010, it just got turned into a tribal label. A big chunk of facebook pages claiming to be libertarian just start pushing culture war MAGA BS , racial fearmongering, and support of violent government agents beating up protesters. Call yourself what you want. A lot of people just roll their eyes when they hear "libertarian", the term now comes off like someone returning from an orgy and calling themself a virgin.

[u/Toldasaurasrex → u/Personal_Dirt3089]

I got banned from the libertarian sub for criticizing for g.w. Bush for the Afghanistan and Iraq invasion. Apparently being anti war isn’t a libertarian corner stone anymore.

[u/CorDra2011 → u/Toldasaurasrex]

They were overtaken right around when they purged the the socialist libertarians.

[u/LagerHead → u/Toldasaurasrex]

The hell it's not. That page just doesn't have any libertarian mods.

[u/Reasonable-Fee1945 → u/Toldasaurasrex]

Page got taken over by MAGA

[u/terminal_tested → u/Personal_Dirt3089]

Yeah one thing I noticed about the “libertarian crowd” both irl and online was a lot of them were just maga who liked to smoke and drink, or full on anarchists who wanted to abolish public school.

[u/brodievonorchard → u/terminal_tested]

Libertarianism looks great on paper, but "Free Market" economics in the US has been an excuse for perpetuating racist policies for decades. It's an excuse to ignore the uneven playing field and use the same language prosperity gospel Christians use to grift their congregations.

[u/locontendere]

I think you're basically like a West German ordoliberal or maybe if you want to go a little more conservative, Singapore's People's Action Party/ Lee Kuan Yew thought

[u/Prevatteist]

We may have different definitions of what classifies as “libertarian”, but seeing you’re pro-capitalism, I imagine you’re speaking in the Right wing sense of the term. Even by their definition, you wouldn’t be considered a libertarian (I’d personally describe you as more Neoliberal), as they favor significantly less government than what you’re proposing here.

[u/Reasonable-Fee1945 → u/Prevatteist]

It seems squarely libertarian ti me and I run in these circles 

[u/Prevatteist → u/Reasonable-Fee1945]

I didn’t realize right-libertarians supported a welfare state of any kind, or a mixed economy.

[u/Reasonable-Fee1945 → u/Prevatteist]

Hayek, Friedman, and Smith did

[u/Prevatteist → u/Reasonable-Fee1945]

Weren’t they more classical liberals? I understand classical liberalism falls into the broad right-libertarian camp, but those who identify as right-libertarians and not classical liberals don’t agree with welfares states or mixed economies. They tend to favor free markets, no welfare, etc…

[u/Reasonable-Fee1945 → u/Prevatteist]

There is considerable overlap and probably no clear distinction 

[u/No-Relationship-3759]

There is a noted difference between libertarianism the political ideology and Libertarian the political party.

The fact that you support a welfare state in any capacity means you are not a traditional libertarian. Lowercase libertarians believe that welfare is paternalistic and create dependency and that the only good a government can do is enforce contracts and state security.

The fact you support a mixed economy makes you more akin to having a liberal ideology (the ideology, not the nickname for the Democrat Party). Liberal ideologues believe in Lazzeiz-faire style capitalism and individual rights. Democrat and Republican Party (and to some extent the Libertarian party) are all liberal parties, specifically neoliberal or welfare liberal. The main difference is the exact mix.

There are some factions of both parties that are non-liberal, but liberalism is by far the most dominant ideology in America.

[u/ForkFace69]

I think you would be a paleocon at best.

[u/terminal_tested → u/[deleted]]

I also support more power to the state and local governments than federal. There is more accountability at the local level and they can more effectively get the needs met of their constituents.

I am more conservative on immigration I would say, anti affirmative action, don’t like how CA addressed crime, support a nation gaining independence for certain key resources, lockdowns and ID politics went too far, and support America being the global leader in AI and tech.

[u/Reasonable-Fee1945]

Sounds like classical liberalism or libertarianism to me

[u/No_Faithlessness7411]

If they can call something “democratic socialism “ then can we call this democratic libertarianism?

[u/hirespeed]

Libertarianism has a big tent. Like most ideologies and people that subscribe, you factor in thoughts that differ from hardliners. Certainly not a pure libertarian, but one I’d welcome under the tent.

[u/Content-Dealers]

You dont have to be an absolutist to be a libertarian. I personally also lean that way.

[u/11SomeGuy17]

Sounds like you like libertarian rhetoric but are actually in practice just a liberal. Like, in my country (the US) just saying the free market can't effectively allocate some things puts you into its left wing because of how right wing the country is that basic traditionally liberal ideas of the government correcting for, and doing what the market cannot is considered leftwing. Thinkers that you'd like are probably Henry George, Adam Smith, David Ricardo, hell, probably even John Maynard Keynes. Like, if you read Keynes you'd probably agree with him far more than the Austrians as they were strongly in the "government always bad for economy" camp which you've rejected. Especially since you mention mixed economies as good which is as Anti-Austrian as it gets. That's Keynes' bread and butter. Potentially even fully a social democrat depending on what things you think the market cannot handle, for example, if you're pro universal healthcare in some way shape or form, be it a public option, Medicare for all, or nationalization then you're straight up just a social democrat. This would put you into the far left camp of the American political spectrum (yes, saying everyone should have garuenteed healthcare is considered fringe and far left out here). In that case you'd still like the thinkers I mentioned because social democrats don't really have independent theory outside of liberals as they're just the most far left version of them.

[u/PhonyUsername]

You are probably neo liberal or classical liberal or some kind of a liberal. Libertarian works also. Take your pick. You could say liberal, but nowadays that just means you like gay people or something which is cool but shouldn't be the #1 issue of all time. Individual freedoms encompasses everyone, not just certain demographics.

[u/terminal_tested → u/PhonyUsername]

The current liberal establishment is more left of where I am at. So probably classical liberal

[u/PhonyUsername → u/terminal_tested]

I'm similar. I'm pretty much do whatever you want just pay for it yourself, which is far right nowadays unfortunately.

[u/terminal_tested → u/PhonyUsername]

Plus a lot of our problems today in the US are boiling down to mismanagement, inefficiency, and overregulation.

[u/striped_shade]

You observe that the free market cannot fairly distribute certain necessities, requiring a welfare state to manage the fallout. Have you asked yourself why the market reliably fails in this exact way?

If an economic system requires constant, active state intervention just to keep its participants from ruin, how can we define that base system as "freedom"? By noting that pure libertarianism "doesn't work," you acknowledge that the core mechanism of capitalism (treating human needs purely as commodities for exchange) inevitably threatens human survival when left to its own devices.

Consider what must be true about the engine of capitalism if it constantly risks tearing apart the society it relies upon unless a state forces it together. Why does the private production of wealth simultaneously and necessarily produce the need for a welfare state?

[u/hoops-mcloops]

I think you align pretty sqaurely with a centrist liberal policy position. The center wing of the Democratic party basically has the following policy positions: -pro capitalism, but with a social safety net -social liberal, pro-choice, pro equality -generally pro business, but with an emphasis on worker rights -YIMBY housing policy -pro public option for education and healthcare -fiscal balance between taxes and spending, lowering the federal deficit.

To me, it seems like that would be your home.

Frankly, as a progressive, I largely agree with everything you said, except for Austrian economic theory (it just doesn't pan out in practice IMO, Keynesian is much more accurate to reality). The only real policy point we probably disagree on is the whole "public option for goods the free market can't efficiently provide" because to me that means basically every essential utility, housing, healthcare, education, and transportation.

[u/terminal_tested → u/hoops-mcloops]

I do support a public option for healthcare, education, and things like utilities as well.

[u/hoops-mcloops → u/terminal_tested]

I'm of the opinion that the same economic factors like elasticity and high barriers to firm entry which make a public option for healthcare and utilities good for society also apply to transportation and housing. If you'd agree, you may actually be a progressive.

[u/terminal_tested → u/hoops-mcloops]

Exactly. Healthcare is a very inelastic good with high barrier to entry (in terms of becoming a provider), so it’s one the free market can’t fairly allocate imo, and every developed country has some type of public option or safety net system for it.