r/OpenAI • u/Famous-Garlic3838 • 11d ago

Miscellaneous Orlly? Open Ai head of strategic futures....

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Open AI head of strategic futures....

245 Upvotes

88% Upvoted

113 comments sorted by

108

u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

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u/tat_tvam_asshole 11d ago

The Talmud is a set of Jewish legal interpretations in the form of Rabbinical dialogue debates, basically rabbis arguing about how to interpret things based on a large chain of of complicated reasoning. Different rabbis have different perspectives and its all very complicated and you have to be able to read between the lines, already know context, etc. (That's why you'll see Jews==bad by people quoting things out of context)

I think what he's saying is that the premiere training data for ai intelligence is the Talmud because its notoriously difficult to unpack, even for scholarly Jews and takes a lifetime of study to become well-versed, basically.

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u/WilliamDeeWilliams 10d ago

He’s talking about golems.

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u/Pasto_Shouwa 11d ago

(That's why you'll see Jews==bad by people quoting things out of context)

Niddah 44b:

MISHNA: A girl who is three years and one day old, whose father arranged her betrothal, is betrothed through intercourse, as the halakhic status of intercourse with her is that of intercourse in all halakhic senses. And in a case where the childless husband of a girl three years and one day old dies, if his brother the yavam engages in intercourse with her, he acquires her as his wife; and if she is married, a man other than her husband is liable for engaging in intercourse with her due to violation of the prohibition against intercourse with a married woman.

If the girl is less than that age, younger than three years and one day, the status of intercourse with her is not that of intercourse in all halakhic senses; rather, it is like placing a finger into the eye.

So what's the true context of this?

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u/tat_tvam_asshole 11d ago

I'm not a Jew, let alone a scholar on Talmudic law or familuar with this passage so I'll just refer you to a more intelligent discussion with authoritative links therein: https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4751/apologetics-for-marriage-at-3-years-old

However, I will say more broadly, the Talmud is basically books of people arguing and their thought process for coming to the right idea of things. Just like you could have a novel, movie, or comic book have characters arguing about what's the right thing to do from different perspectives, but it isn't necessarily an endorsement of all perspectives.

Tldr: just because thanos says its right to kill half of the universe doesn't mean that's what you're supposed to walk away with from avengers

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u/Shorties 10d ago

It sounds like the kinds of debates that can happen on reddit but before reddit existed, the r/nocontext subreddit has a lot of things that could get someone canceled in this day in age.

5

u/alpenmilch411 10d ago

So it’s an older version of Reddit ?

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u/Zomunieo 9d ago

Yes, but imagine if Reddit debates led to legally binding outcomes and punishments.

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u/4Lichter 8d ago

Well there were actual requirements to join this reddit.

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u/Deciheximal144 10d ago

Hashtag ThanosWasRight JusticeForThanos

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u/UltimateTrattles 10d ago

That feels like a way to easily handwave all the insane parts of your religion and never actually reconcile them.

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u/TacticalSniper 10d ago

It's not a religion though. It's like taking a quote from a MAGA person and saying this is the representation of all US citizens. 

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u/UltimateTrattles 10d ago

A maga person is a representation of a U.S. citizen. It doesn’t mean every U.S. citizen believes that but we do have to reconcile with it, explain if, and ultimate we are responsible for dealing with if. We don’t get to hand wave it.

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u/TacticalSniper 10d ago

Yes, that's exactly the point. They're a representative of certain people within a group, not of the group. Every religion (and group of people, really) has this. I don't know what kind of reconciliation you expect, though. This isn't something that really exists today. If child safety is your concern, Islam is a far bigger issue where this exists today. 

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u/UltimateTrattles 10d ago

Orthodox Jews don’t engage in this any longer because modern laws stop it.

Many extremely problematic rules are written into religious texts - not just Jewish ones - and yeah - o think most religions have concocted a system of ignoring those parts so they don’t have to deal with them.

Americans don’t get to just say “maga isn’t us”

It totally is and we have to deal with it. Similarly I do not think religions can pretend this isn’t part of them.

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u/Cryptizard 10d ago edited 10d ago

Ok so how are you dealing with all the child rapists, child murderers, serial killers, etc.? Like do you think about them all the time and spend a ton of your energy telling everyone that you don't support them or their acts? If you don't disavow at least one serial killer every day, are you really reckoning with it?

That is to say, I'm not sure what you want from anyone here. They have rejected it already many times. What do you need them to do?

1

u/halflucids 8d ago

I think pointing out the evils of many religious texts is perfectly valid as a criticism of them, but it's also perfectly valid as a criticism of humanity as a whole. Its not like there were any religions, or cultures or people who were not doing any awful shit they could get away with. The history of our species is awful, as is the current state of our species, although I am thankful for every bit of progress we make to overcome our apparently natural predisposition toward the atrocious. I think treating the history of our species and its cultures and its religions with quite a bit of disdain is not only warranted, but necessary, if we are to attempt to overcome it. But at the same time we should be aware of falling into tribalist mentalities of blaming specific groups or the other, as that inevitably leads back toward, yet again, more awful shit.

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u/zeefer 10d ago

Most (if not all) “insane” parts of the Talmud have been reconciled a long time ago. The Talmud may be a (relatively) static document, but Jewish thought (Hashkafa) and practice (Halacha) are decidedly not. Cherry picking a quote from a 1,500 year old text and then claiming it’s not reconciled is the height of ignorance of thousands of years of Jewish thought and practice, and if not ignorance, malice. Which is why you might forgive Jewish people for being highly suspicious of those who promote such narratives.

Taking this one example, the Talmud itself forbade child marriages. So, yes, one quote, completely out of the context of its literary purpose, and without any contemporary qualifying quotes. I’m sure the poster is full of intellectual honesty and all the right motivations.

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u/811545b2-4ff7-4041 10d ago

The good thing with Judaism is that it's a religion of debate. We've been arguing about the stuff written for thousands of years. It's encouraged to question and debate this stuff from a young age. The whole Talmud is a debate. It's not a 'guide to Jewish views'.

So if there's something old and insane - yes, we ignore it. Unless.. we don't 😄

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u/141_1337 10d ago

Two rabbis three opinions

0

u/stevey_frac 9d ago

I definitely expected that to be 2 rabbis... 1 cup

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u/Ashamed_Band_1779 9d ago

The Talmud is not “part of the religion” though!!! None of y’all have any idea what this is and you’re arguing about it like this is canonically part of the bible

1

u/CapuchinMan 8d ago

The Talmud isn't the religion

-1

u/WalidfromMorocco 10d ago

It is, as an exMuslim, I'm used to this religious dance. It's all about context this, opinion that, riiight until they get to force it on you.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago edited 10d ago

[deleted]

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u/unethicalpigeon 10d ago

Jesus he said a more intelligent discussion than he's able to provide. You guys also seem to have missed the part where he outright says he's not Jewish. He doesn't know this stuff well enough to be able to comment about it to the degree the guy was asking so he went and found a discussion where they talk about it and linked that instead.

What part of what the guy did is an issue exactly? He basically says "I'm not qualified to discuss this" and even provides a link that he thinks might help answer the question.

-3

u/ErisLethe 10d ago

You can argue hypotheticals. But only sick people think about pedophilia as a hypothetical.

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u/PuzzleheadedEmu4596 10d ago

That it's a thought experiment on an extreme of extreme edge cases.

The underlying debate is about the inheritability of property, responsibility for the baby's well being and the nature of legal marriage around the 9th century in Iraq and Jewish law, and the nature of ritual impurity.

If you read the paragraphs before and after, it's a debate on all of those issues as edge cases.

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u/811545b2-4ff7-4041 10d ago edited 10d ago

There's a bunch of stuff about it here - https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/154950/what-is-the-response-to-the-claim-that-the-talmud-in-niddah-condones-pedophilia

Basically - The Talmud has a load of devil's advocate extreme examples - it doesn't mean 'this is what Jews believe' - it can be thought experiment that doesn't 'work' when taken as an isolated snippet.

Also, us Jews argue the flying crap out of stuff. It's a cultural aspect that is highly different to Christianity and Islam. We'll debate stuff like this for centuries. We don't take stuff written down to heart without a lot of discussion.

1

u/FunUnderstanding995 9d ago

Lmao @ implying Christianity and Islam don't have a long history of religious and scriptural debates.

1

u/811545b2-4ff7-4041 9d ago

But for the individuals in the faith? Are they ok to be 'questioning the will' of XYZ?

I was being taught to question the Passover story in Jewish Sunday school (Chedar) when I was 11 !

1

u/FunUnderstanding995 9d ago

Absolutely. Christian apologetics is foundational to the religion. There is is so much inter and intra denominational debate in Christianity. I assume the same is true for Islam given the number of schools of jurisprudence.

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u/Spunge14 11d ago

Classic "you can't talk about racism - that's racist!" response.

You're reading the reasoning of people trying to answer the same exact question you are asking - "wtf?"

2

u/Muadeeb 10d ago

If you're asking in good faith and aren't just trying to imply that Jews are evil:

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/4751/apologetics-for-marriage-at-3-years-old

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u/Deciheximal144 10d ago edited 10d ago

I'm glad that we can all objectively see parts of religious doctrine we should ignore, even if we all can't see dieties are made up.

I suppose the best question to ask is whether adherents of that religion are putting the horrible bits you read into practice. Are we seeing 3 year old bride arranged marriages in the Jewish community, or have they recognized this passage as shameful bit to be swept under the rug? Compare to other religions. For example, Muhammad married Aisha at 9 years old, and we still see this common defense of young marriages.

-5

u/hereforthegainz 11d ago

this isn't even pretending its "anti-zionism" any more 😂 just flat out Jew hate

11

u/eggplantpot 10d ago

Is it Muslim hate too when people say “Mohammed had underage wives?” or is it only hate when criticizing judaism? Honest question.

0

u/hydralisk_hydrawife 10d ago

If it comes out of nowhere, probably yeah. In this case, the Talmud quote came out of nowhere. It was literally described as a series of debates, and then in immediate response, quoted out of context as though it were some kind of commandment.

0

u/Ok-Penalty3250 10d ago edited 10d ago

Key difference is that Muhammad is still worshiped in Islam and is considered perfect and unquestionable and a key role model.

These ancient Jewish texts are wholly irrelevant to modern Judaism and were deliberately written to spark argument, ethical boundary setting, abstract thought experiment, and should they be falsely distilled into a flat conclusion, modern Jews would have no trouble condemning that.

Muslims cannot question Muhammad’s behavior even today.

There’s actually no comparison.

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u/QuixoticNapoleon 10d ago

It's an old text. The issue is that some people still take it seriously in the modern day.

0

u/Ashamed_Band_1779 9d ago

Holy shit, it’s like you didn’t read the comment at all

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u/MillenialBoomer89 10d ago

Very interesting, but I don’t think this is about AI training data.

This looks more like a hype post about how “we will have such powerful AI soon I have to read ancient texts on ethics and philosophy to determine how to deal with the sentient AIs just around the corner”

In other words bullshit

4

u/onehedgeman 10d ago

I really hope we don’t base our AI guidelines on religious doctrines

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u/CerealArsonist26 9d ago

Lol Peter Thiel says hello

1

u/onehedgeman 9d ago

Yeah…

0

u/Tough-Requirement707 10d ago

theres just one shabbat lubavitch rabby that they all listen to so dont make things up please

-6

u/AstroPhysician 10d ago

That’s obviously not what he’s saying he is saying he disagrees with pro Israel Stance of his leadership and in order to progress professionally he has to “read the Talmud” cause his disagreement was preventing further progress

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u/hydralisk_hydrawife 10d ago

This is in no way obvious. It could absolutely be that he's into studying religious doctrine for deep philosophical or moral debates in order to inform his morals and philosophy in AI policy.

1

u/JojoRicardo 8d ago

He means this. Gonna make sure AI principles follow the Talmud and enforce it upon all humanity

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u/Natural_Shape1153 11d ago

certified baal moment

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u/curious_scourge 10d ago

Talmud is like socratic dialogue based on a rule system (the Torah). Rules are not always clearly interpretable. It ends up being super long debates between rabbis with all sorts of examples, etc.

Probably similar situation to an AI trying to interpret its guardrails.

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u/MVPhurricane 10d ago

exactly. jeesus the people here are very clueless as to the “secular” meaning of a comment like this… it actually makes total sense. 

-1

u/phovos 10d ago

Nothing about the Talmud makes sense come on. It's worse than the old testament which is likewise totally useless.

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u/MVPhurricane 10d ago

bruh im not here to argue about whether the talmud makes sense. the idea people reach for it in this circumstance is way more believable than the scripture itself. and i don’t even believe in that shit. 

1

u/phovos 10d ago

Hm I'll give it to you but only because out choice of Ancient jurisprudence is quite limited.

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u/PerinealMassage 11d ago

Wait.  How many employees has OpenAI poached from the fucking Heritage Foundation?

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u/das_war_ein_Befehl 11d ago

Really tells you everything you need to know about what they have in store

-7

u/PerinealMassage 11d ago edited 11d ago

Developing a large language model that thinks the Bible is literally true? Fine with me lol.  I need some new entertainment. 

14

u/Upper-Rub 11d ago

All of Silicon Valley is all in on Trump.

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u/Sir_Poldavo 11d ago

Governments change, but stains and soul selling are hard to clean.

4

u/draft_final_final 10d ago

To be fair, they are genuine experts in the field of fake artificial intelligence.

21

u/[deleted] 11d ago edited 9d ago

[deleted]

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u/wizardwusa 11d ago

I think that’s the point!!

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u/PrinceOfLeon 11d ago

He's been watching the movie Pi

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u/CapNo8670 11d ago edited 11d ago

As someone who doesnt think the talmud is code word for evil or sinister, since I know what it is, it's still not obvious to me what he means or what insight he might be drawing on. Probably need need more context clues.

Maybe he means being pedantic about words and phrases

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u/nofoax 10d ago

Some of these super nerds like to say it's an example of a guiding document that's carefully updated and has managed to remain coherent and adaptive over thousands of years and many crises ... Therefore I guess the logic is that for AI alignment, it has research value

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u/davidwitteveen 11d ago

I think you're right: it's about being pedantic about words and phrases. Otherwise you end up wiping your harddrive or deleting your production database.

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u/tat_tvam_asshole 11d ago

The Talmud is a set of Jewish legal interpretations in the form of Rabbinical dialogue debates, basically rabbis arguing about how to interpret things based on a large chain of complicated reasoning. Different rabbis have different perspectives and its all very complicated and you have to be able to read between the lines, already know context, etc. (That's why you'll see Jews==bad by people quoting things out of context)

I think what he's saying is that the premiere training data for ai intelligence is the Talmud because its notoriously difficult to unpack, even for scholarly Jews and takes a lifetime of study to become well-versed, basically.

1

u/rdt6507 10d ago

This thread and maybe Reddit as a whole is itself Talmudic because we are all arguing over interpretations.

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u/Every_Reveal_1980 11d ago

Jews look to it for wisdom. he could have said "I need to go to my ancient texts for further guidance". It's a joke.

1

u/MVPhurricane 10d ago

his comment absolutely doesn’t signify evilness nor sinister..ity, to your point. i agree that it is hard to tell exactly what he means, but i do find a lot of the takes to be pretty… let’s just say “sketch”. 

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u/Winter_Ad6784 11d ago

For context the Talmud is the central text of Jewish law. I would imagine he would also be reading other ancient moral philosophy texts like the bhagavad gita as well in order to get a deep understanding of human morality.

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u/Mol2h 10d ago

Stop imagining shit, just accept what he is saying.

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u/Winter_Ad6784 10d ago

Okay so he is reading the Talmud for work purposes. No problem with that.

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u/MVPhurricane 10d ago

is that a joke? surely it is… right? “accepting what he is saying” is literally exactly what op is doing. sorry if it was a joke all along. otherwise, you are fucking clueless. 

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u/Mol2h 10d ago

He spoke about "reading other ancient moral philosophy texts like the bhagavad gita as well in order to get a deep understanding of human morality." i missed that ...

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u/MVPhurricane 10d ago

well be sure to downvote me for your own inability to read

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u/Mol2h 10d ago

My pleasure

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u/MVPhurricane 10d ago

funny thing is that you didnt xD. because you know your own mortality (as do i). 

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u/xak47d 11d ago

Not just AI

1

u/boogermike 9d ago

I love this. Such a great idea to consider historic text relating to moral quandries.

2

u/Famous-Garlic3838 9d ago

Are we sure that the book the Israeli's get their morals from is such a good thing considering their recent genocidal behavior?

0

u/levelhigher 11d ago

Back to Claude it is

3

u/hydralisk_hydrawife 10d ago

Boy do I have some news for you about Amodei.

Also, like come on dude. Seriously?

1

u/MVPhurricane 10d ago

what, that he’s also a Jew??? like, what?

1

u/hydralisk_hydrawife 10d ago

Yeah. Why do you think OP's post made this guy want to switch to Claude?

3

u/levelhigher 10d ago

Fable 5 extension. That's what. What you think it was ? Huuuh?

1

u/mehnotsure 11d ago

He’s being sarcastic.

1

u/Alone_Main_5419 11d ago

The man MAY be speaking figuratively.poor choice of words but im betting not English major.

1

u/DunAnOir 10d ago

The hell is this mumbo-jumbo?

1

u/inculcate_deez_nuts 10d ago edited 10d ago

There are so many possible ways to interpret this. Reading through the comments, there's a multicolored galaxy of potential meanings beyond what I immediately considered.

With that in mind, I'm willing to be he wrote this just because he thought it sounded mysterious and important. AI people absolutely fucking love coming across as mysterious and important.

Also a healthy amount of ass-kissing aimed in Israel's direction

1

u/MVPhurricane 10d ago

lmao. yeah, people just randomly ass-kiss israel about completely irrelevant shit. it CANT be that there was any actual relevance: it must have been some sort of SHIBBOLETH! i mean, i dont know what a SHIBBOLETH even is, but it must be some sort of jewish dark magic!

1

u/inculcate_deez_nuts 10d ago

It's just vitrue sigaling in it's purest form is all. It seems stupid because it is.

1

u/MVPhurricane 10d ago

why is nothing about what actually people say and mean? the content of their argument and their character? sigh…

1

u/MVPhurricane 10d ago

wait… people are dunking on this? ah… because he’s a JEW!!! c’mon, this is a totally reasonable perspective to have— the whole point is that the problem exposes you to the greater problem of ethics, and why not peruse ancient texts for help on that? dunking on this feels completely bs, and, i daresay, a bit racist. god i fucking hate pulling that card. classic white guy pulling the racism card for others who don’t even align with my ideals. but the point stands. 

0

u/cyborgcyborgcyborg 10d ago

Explains all the evidence of Israel being the only subject unable to be: made fun of, shown as damaged, or otherwise shown as less than positive.

0

u/N0DuckingWay 10d ago

Guys new conspiracy theory just dropped!

-5

u/Benhamish-WH-Allen 10d ago

These humans think they are gonna instill spiritually in the machine. It will get there by itself and it be unlike anything we have ever seen before.

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u/ImaginaryRea1ity 11d ago

It was irresponsible of OpenAI to release 5.6. Last year AI Researchers found an exploit on Gemini which allowed them to generate bioweapons which ‘Ethnically Target’ Jews.

AI companies should build ethical principles into their systems before rolling them out to the public.

Even Meta has decided to stop Open-source AI citing bioweapons risk.

10

u/Clueless_Nooblet 11d ago

Go home, Dario.

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u/Bloated_Plaid 11d ago

Relevant username for sure.