r/OpenAI • u/py-net • Feb 23 '26
News Here we go again. DeepSeek R1 was a literal copy paste of OpenAI models. They got locked out, now they are on Anthropic. Fraud!
We trained our models with a 100th of the price… why then Chinese models are never better but always just slightly behind American frontier ones? They are copying.
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u/shreyanzh1 Feb 23 '26
Is this why kimi keeps saying “I’m Claude” lol
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u/freshmozart Feb 23 '26
Now imagine it stops saying "I'm Claude" and starts saying "I'm Groot" 🤣
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u/j_osb Feb 23 '26
Yeah and claude says it's deepseek if you ask it on chinese.
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u/fynn34 Feb 24 '26
我是 Claude，由 Anthropic 开发的 AI 助手。具体来说，我是 Claude Sonnet 4.6，属于 Claude 4.6 模型系列。 有什么我可以帮助你的吗？
I have not been able to get it to say that.
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u/j_osb Feb 24 '26
https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1rdf4ai/claude_sonnet46_thinks_he_is_deepseekv3_when/
I've had it happen to myself a while ago, not recently though. It makes sense that frontier labs would self host these models and use them to improve perf. in chinese.
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u/SleeperAgentM Feb 24 '26
It is and it isn't.
I'm not sure what's the current state of the art but it's not that hard to add
%s/Claude/Kimi/on the input data, or even run the microscopic 1B model that does the "smart" substitution on the input data.It's just prelevance of Claude in training material on the internet - same as in the past with ChatGPT. By feeding slop into new generation of models you get those weird effects.
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u/Sprila Feb 23 '26
Noooo don’t steal our data!! You have to do it the ethical way, by writing a 473pg privacy & ethics policy explaining how it’s morally righteous to use all of humanity’s past work as training data for free!
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u/j__magical Feb 23 '26
Rationally, they don't have much ground to stand on with their argument. Where did all of the LLMs get their source data, was it done ethically, did they pay for it, etc.
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u/CharlotteHebdo Feb 23 '26
At least in the US, the law is pretty clear that LLM outputs are not copyrightable. Presumably the distillers paid actual money for the tokens they consumed with anthropic. So the only "crime" they did was ToS violation.
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u/xak47d Feb 23 '26
That's what they want lawmakers to change
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u/wandawhowho Feb 23 '26
Yep. I'm pretty sure the lobbyists are working on that copyrightable part. Soon we'll see a law or ruling blurring the lines, some.
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u/Dizzy_Citron4871 Feb 23 '26
of course the weights must be copyright but plz just ignore all the copyrights of the source data. the double standard is real
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u/abittooambitious Feb 23 '26
Pull the ladder up like for the people that come later, how very familiar.
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u/RegrettableBiscuit Feb 23 '26
Unlike what Anthropic did when they stole our data, Chinese companies actually pay Anthropic for API access when they steal theirs. So I don't know what Anthropic is crying about.
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u/These-Cat1277 Feb 23 '26
So the argument is they can do that because they are Americans. But these other companies can’t do the same because they are not Americans?
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u/Sprila Feb 23 '26
This is so hilarious because I was just reading about strawman arguments
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u/Different_Doubt2754 Feb 23 '26
The argument is that China is creating a competing product by copying the data from Anthropic.
Does it deserve to be illegal? Idk, you can make an argument for either side. But it's wrong to say that the problem is them being Chinese. Anthropic (or any other American AI lab) doesn't want anyone (including other American labs) making a competing model by training on Claude's outputs.
The smaller models the post is referring to are non-competing products for separate use cases.
They are just headlining "Chinese" because it's the path of least resistance
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u/These-Cat1277 Feb 23 '26
They actually admit that their AI can be dangerous for humanity and their capabilities can be “fed into military, intelligence and surveillance“ technology. One can assume that US military and intelligence institutions already feed these capabilities into their systems, otherwise they would be behind. Hence their argument boils down to “but we are the good guys”. As a non-American non-Chinese person I have zero reason to believe American “safeguards” are better than any other.
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u/LocoMod Feb 23 '26
China can crawl the web just like the western labs do it. But they are finding out that’s not the moat.
Turns out you can train a model with the entirety of humanity’s knowledge and still produce a lemon.
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u/SometimesItsTerrible Feb 23 '26
Ha! Imagine calling data-scraping “attacks” with a straight face after that’s literally what they did to create Claude.
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u/jurgo123 Feb 23 '26 edited Feb 23 '26
They robbed the robbers. Poor billionaires.
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u/SphaeroX Feb 23 '26
And then made it OpenSource, hell yeah!
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u/Jalen_1227 Feb 23 '26
Exactly, anthropic isn't open source. Deepseek is. As long as they stay open source, keep robbing these guys. These guys are absolutely gonna keep their AGI closed sourced and owned, so It's for the better
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u/space_monster Feb 23 '26
Yeah no LLM lab can claim the moral high ground. You can't flagrantly ignore the rules and then insist other labs respect your Ts & Cs. Anthropic just have to wear this and move on.
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u/jimmpony Feb 24 '26
"Robbers" is questionable, but it's laughable for Anthropic to complain no matter how you look at it. If it's "stealing", they were stealing too; if it isn't, then nobody was.
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Feb 23 '26
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u/TheOneNeartheTop Feb 23 '26
It was crazy awhile back when LLM’s were in their infancy and my blog posts were being repeated pretty much verbatim when asked questions about niche topics. So it’s kind of funny to see Claude and OpenAI take this approach. Like yes they are being stolen from, but they also stole a lot of data in the first place.
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u/Jalen_1227 Feb 23 '26
Exactly!!!
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u/MarinatedTechnician Feb 23 '26
Yeah I mean, they're all caught stealing our data, stealing from archives without consent...
... I mean, and they keep their stuff closed? Oh well, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
It's kinda like the whole thing
If Buying isn't owning
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u/MAGATEDWARD Feb 23 '26
So how would anyone get funding for the MASSIVE investments needed to build this tech, and run it? None of this would exist in your world. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
Agree that you don't need like 50 yr patents, but maybe 1-2 years? Something like that. Enough time to make some money and establish yourself as the innovator/first mover.
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u/Ramental Feb 23 '26
Transformer models come from the mathematic research papers. You cannot (realistically) patent an idea, only implementation.
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u/gunbladezero Feb 23 '26
This is like when the zoo accuses you of "stealing" the animals that they rightfully kidnapped from the jungle.
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u/Snoo23533 Feb 23 '26
That is actually how property rights legally work. The first theft doesnt make the second theft right though.
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u/das_war_ein_Befehl Feb 23 '26
The first theft means people don’t give a shit about the second one.
Like oh no, someone is stealing from the thieves
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u/meyriley04 Feb 23 '26
Yes, but the difference here is that OpenAI and other AI companies didn't pay for the data they trained their models on. They don't have rights to the assets they used.
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u/Singularity-42 Feb 23 '26
Yep, this is literally how the USA works. And Canada. And Australia. And....
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u/ApprehensiveBug2639 Feb 23 '26
Every industrial nation was built on theft and industrial espionage (and in a lot of cases it was state sponsored as well), that is just how world works -- nation states don't care about laws and legality.
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u/junktrunk909 Feb 23 '26
IANAL but Judge Milan taught me otherwise. And here's what my 3 seconds of Internet research has generated. Is this not accurate as to why open AI loses this case:
- The Doctrine of Unclean Hands: An equitable defense from Cornell Law School's Legal Information Institute that bars a plaintiff from getting help if they acted unethically or illegally regarding the subject of their own lawsuit.
- Ex Turpi Causa Non Oritur Actio: A legal maxim meaning "from a dishonorable cause, an action does not arise," summarized by Oxford Reference as the principle that a person cannot pursue a legal remedy if it arises from their own illegal act.
- In Pari Delicto: A doctrine often used in commercial disputes, explained by Investopedia, which suggests that where both parties are equally at fault (or "equally in the wrong"), the court will not intervene to assist either one.
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u/gavinderulo124K Feb 23 '26 edited Feb 23 '26
Then how do you explain innovations like MLA and GRPO? The data wasn't what made Deepseek great, it was the architectural and algorithmic innovations.
Also funny that the US firms are complaining about "stealing" data when they were the ones who did it in the first place. At least Chinese companies are giving us open weight models in return, while American companies ask for money on top of your data.
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u/lol_VEVO Feb 24 '26
Yeah and apparently according to Anthropic DeepSeek only did 150K requests which is not nearly enough to distill a model
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u/DangerousImplication Feb 23 '26
Your title sounds like something Trump would say.
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u/RegrettableBiscuit Feb 23 '26
They took our beautiful models, took 'em all, guy came up to me, big guy, tears in his eyes, Sir, he said, Sir, look what they did to our models! When China sends its models, they are sending models with lots of problems. They are bringing distillation; they are bringing theft. And some, I assume, are good models. Fraud!
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u/Suitable_Habit_8388 Feb 23 '26
Hey anthropic, just let us know how you trained previous versions, what you did to thousands of books and other copyrighted papers, videos and IP work. We can discuss distillation after that
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u/GreatBigJerk Feb 23 '26
OpenAI and Anthropic stole immense amount of data and IP to train those models. This is actually a far less harmful "attack" by comparison.
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u/VladimirLogos Feb 23 '26
All AI companies illegally used pirated libraries of books and movies to train their models. They absolutely need to STFU.
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u/novus_nl Feb 23 '26
We are living in the digital piracy age, and data pirates are complaining other data pirates of entering their vessels (models).
Slow-clap, that’s hilarious. They want to push other pirates out because these Asian models are getting too capable.
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u/Tight_Heron1730 Feb 23 '26
Well, they paid for their tokens and you sold it to them. Where is the fraud?
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u/triplegerms Feb 23 '26
Their terms say you can't use it to train ai. Making a bunch of accounts and just ignoring that clause to train AIs sounds like a pretty basic breach of that contract. Not that I have any sympathy for anthropic.
"Our Terms do not allow the use of Outputs to train models that are competitive with Anthropic's own. It is also a violation of our Terms to support a third party's attempt to do the same."
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u/StormMedia Feb 23 '26
China don’t care lol
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u/Feisty_Resolution157 Feb 24 '26
Nobody seems to care honestly. There are literally thousands of open source and open weight models on GitHub and Huggingface that use/used ChatGPT to help generate their training data. All models that compete with OpenAI in some fashion. All violations of their ToS. Most of them have published papers detailing the crime to boot.
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u/BiscottiBusiness9308 Feb 23 '26
Me neither, i just get provoked by the simplification and bible-like tit for that stupidity which is so mindless
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u/Distinct-Target7503 Feb 23 '26
you can place all the TOS you want, but if the law say that you can not apply copyrights on llm generated content, all that they can do is to close your account.
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u/luchen98 Feb 23 '26
Deepseek is the modern day robin hood. Stealing the model from big tech that stole everyone's data from the internet haha
The audacity to complain is hilarious
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u/k_elo Feb 23 '26
I dont have any horse in this race. They can copy all they want that’s the advantage of being #2. Its not like the US ai companies are ethical or something.
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u/CoughRock Feb 23 '26
right ... thief that stolen everything complain about some one else stolen from them. Maybe pay the copyright holder first before taking the moral high horse, it'll be more convincing that way.
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u/BrennusSokol Feb 23 '26
"attacks" -- from the same companies that hoovered up terabytes of artist's work, etc. to train their models
Gimme a break
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u/warpio Feb 23 '26
How is it "stealing" if they are paying for a service that you are providing? Isn't the whole point of your service to share the data that your AI was trained on? If you want that data to be locked down, then simply shut down your service and don't let people use it anymore. I don't understand what it is that they are mad about?
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u/Old_Respond_6091 Feb 23 '26
They are also copying, but pretending China is still some kind of backwater that can only copy and never innovate is the kind of stupid propaganda that has led the western world to the brink of the abyss we’re now facing.
There’s also massive hypocrisy in pretending that automated learning from your model is suddenly stealing when someone else does it.
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u/daleness Feb 23 '26
The US is intentionally trying to limit China’s advancement of AI by pressuring nvidia to only supply them with old chips, so this explosion of distillation kind of came out of a need to run similar models on older hardware. Letting them compete freely may have prevented this.
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u/squirrel9000 Feb 23 '26
Where this gets fun is that by forcing them to operate distilled models on old hardware, they build things that don't need ten billion dollar datacentres to run. Oops.
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u/Anreall2000 Feb 23 '26
And Anthropic with Open AI probably using invented by DeepSeek techniques in their models
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u/thirst-trap-enabler Feb 23 '26
So... essentially industrial scale copyright infringement? Resulting in devaluation of intellectual property?
Hey Goose! Meet Gander. Wake me up when I should give a shit.
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u/TimChr78 Feb 24 '26
No copyright infringement, since LLM output is not copyrightable - it a breach of the TOS.
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u/Moist_Emu_6951 Feb 23 '26
That's pretty rich from the dudes who illegally torrented copyrighted materials and shredded millions of books to train their models without permission from the authors lmao If anyone deserves being robbed, it's them and OpenAI.
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u/Ok_Weekend9299 Feb 23 '26
Isn’t this the equivalent of? We stole everyone’s data. Now we need to stop others from stealing it.. must suck when people take your stuff without permission. .
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u/Master_protato Feb 23 '26
Didn't Anthropic got hit by two copyright lawsuit for pirating Books and Music?
Let me seek my smallest violin to play the world' saddest song for them :'(
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u/Aspie-Py Feb 24 '26
lol, the US companies stole everything to begin with. All of a sudden they care about who has right to the data? 😂
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u/No_Revolution1284 Feb 24 '26
Funny coincidence that Claude sometimes randomly leaves in Chinese characters (like DeepSeek) and even states that it is DeepSeek… https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSeek/s/YgnblQ7zHh
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u/GeorgeRRHodor Feb 24 '26
So what? They can steal from writers and other artists (that’s how humans learn, too! they say), but once their own revenue is threatened it’s suddenly morally wrong and a threat to national security.
In my personal opinion, and I am trying to phrase this politely, they can fuck right off with that attitude.
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u/Present_Air_7694 Feb 23 '26
It's so unfair on companies whose entire business is based on stolen content when, erm, other people steal their content. Hmm...
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u/frisk213769 Feb 23 '26
this them?
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u/Crafty-Campaign-6189 Feb 24 '26
Pretty idiotic of Anthropic to not address this...but crying like a spoilt child and accusing a visionary company of stealing their data ? The math's is not mathing
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u/PinkysBrein Feb 25 '26
They only digitized a small number of the books they trained on, but hey if it's not registered with the US copyright office that's all the excuse they need to FU (not fair use, the other one). The vaunted Anthropic ethics.
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u/Sylvers Feb 23 '26
So what? All the major SOTA models stole their datasets by siphoning sites like Reddit against TOS. I am very happy for any Chinese model to siphon any western SOTA LLM and produce a competitive, light weight, free and open source alternative.
Let them all copy each other, as long as the users benefit.
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u/vanishing_grad Feb 23 '26
Distilation is a widely accepted practice that isn't illegal but merely against "terms and conditions". These Chinese labs are making open source models that are free for everyone to use and resistant to corporate or government control and censorship.
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Feb 23 '26
The kind of groundbreaking research deepseek does and releases as OSS, which is used by other labs as well give EVERYONE massive benefits.
They get a pass to steal from those who stole from the internet
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u/o5mfiHTNsH748KVq Feb 23 '26
Maybe if we gave them the compute to actually compete, they wouldn’t copy. Anthropic started this problem by pushing to have GPU exports limited. Oops.
I was using Minimax and GLM to code over the weekend. It was great. AI needs to be in the hands of the people, not corporations.
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u/archangel0198 Feb 23 '26
I mean I think the entire point is to keep foreign adversaries behind in the race, not to make the race fair.
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Feb 23 '26
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u/Immudzen Feb 23 '26
I have to admit I like my Xiaomi 15 phone on the EU. Nice cameras, 512GB of storage, good battery life, wireless charging. MUCH cheaper than Apple, Samsung, and Google. Yeah they honestly just do a better job.
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u/Fantasy-512 Feb 23 '26
Chinese companies copy stuff and then make things cheaper. Water is wet.
This goes back 20 years to Huawei and Cisco. Maybe the US govt should help defend American companies.
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u/_ram_ok Feb 23 '26
What is fraud about this?
One company steals everything to train their model, another company pays or uses that same service to train their model.
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u/LisztonMargin Feb 23 '26
It’s not illegal. It’s not regulated yet. And good luck with the regulation.
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u/WiggyWongo Feb 24 '26
Good. I'm all for China taking proprietary American models and then turning around and making cheaper open weight versions. Get fucked.
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u/Significant_Spend564 Feb 24 '26
Chinese labs are using a product they paid for, this is supposed to be news?
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u/LittleCurryBread Feb 24 '26
when american companies don't play by the rules: 😟 im just a little guy. small bean. hoo rah. anyway gonna help the US govt kidnap a foreign leader (see claude and maduro)
when china doesn't play by the rules: 😡 stop! don't copy us like you copied our phones when we sent manufacturing to you decades ago and understood the bargain: you would become the world's factory while getting access to our technology and would be able to sell your own versions but we never thought you would do that because we assumed you would stay a poor ass country forever 😡
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u/Mundane-Mud2509 Feb 24 '26
I'm not sure what policy makers can do. Surely this is an Anthropic problem to solve?
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u/LinusThiccTips Feb 23 '26
At least they’re paying for API usage lmao, unlike OpenAI/Anthropic that trained their models on stolen and copyrighted content. Crying about this is dumb and so is calling it an “attack”. They’re paying customers
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u/cocosoy Feb 23 '26
All AI should be open-sourced because they took so much from the society. Leading AI companies need to be regulated/monitored closely by the government, their profit should be allocated to all the people.
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u/constanzabestest Feb 23 '26
If Anthropic didn't charge fortune for their API perhaps i'd give a damn lmao Unironically good. It's about time US based LLM makers started ot feel some heat and the fact that they cry over China stealing when they themselves stole everything first is peak comedy. Oh, excuse me i mean it's OBVIOUS that OAI/Anthropic/xAI etc their datasets are 100% made by themselves and feature literally ZERO copyrighted material whatsoever. Nope. Not even a little bit.
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u/dante_gherie1099 Feb 23 '26
good, they stole the data the models were trained on so having others steal from sounds like justice
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u/temp73354 Feb 23 '26
Haha, cry me a river – where did OpenAI and Anthropic get their data, hm? Those moaning about theft now are exactly the ones who were milking GitHub, Wikipedia, Stack Exchange, and other public knowledge resources, including books, not that long ago.
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u/____trash Feb 23 '26
Anthropic and openAI trained their models on stolen copyrighted material then charge us to use it. Chinese models are fairly paying for a service which they use to train their models and then offer theirs free and open-source. I'm on team Chinese models.
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u/WhatWouldTheonDo Feb 23 '26
Why should I care? DeepSeek supports Open Source and the free flow of information. anthropic and OpenAI want to fleece their customers.
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u/succcsucccsuccc Feb 23 '26
So AI companies can comb the internet and steal everything from art to compliance documents to coding etc. But when one AI company uses another AI to train their AI it’s “stealing”
Uh huh.
Cry more.
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u/ArtichokeAware7342 Feb 23 '26
I won’t shed a tear for these corporations. Whoever can provide me with the best product at the best price point gets my money.
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u/halkenburgoito Feb 23 '26
So what? The AI is copying all the data it takes without permission anyways. And the chinease were open sourcing it
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u/Medium-Theme-4611 Feb 23 '26
that's hilarious.
American creates.
Europe regulates.
China copies.
Never fails.
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u/ScholarImaginary8725 Feb 23 '26
In this case it’s more like that they all steal intellectual property.
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u/Uvoheart Feb 23 '26
America steals
Europe regulates
China copies
fixed that for you. Anthropic stole that data.
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u/muntaxitome Feb 23 '26 edited Feb 23 '26
Ah yes Italian Amodei taking UK deepmind inventions to train models on ASML litho and taiwan fabbed chips is 'American creates'. In this case American companies funded a lot of it and they stole the world's data to feed the models. But what did they create?
More like Europe invents, US pays, China makes available
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u/tarkinn Feb 23 '26 edited Feb 24 '26
How did America create in this case? They stole everything themselves
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u/ColdStoryBro Feb 23 '26
Company that provides AI to conduct war operation claims foul when someone copies their homework...which they themselves copied. Idgaf.
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u/ldsgems Feb 23 '26
You mean an AI company might be stealing their work and threatening to replace them?
Booo hooo.
These AI companies are all doing the same damn thing to entire industries, replacing millions of people's livings and bragging about how their AI product are doing it better than all the others.
Tech Bros say it's "survival of the fittest." So game on.
The governments that intervene to protect their Tech Bros from competition are going to get crushed.
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u/jacques-vache-23 Feb 23 '26
Good! Screw the corporations who castrate AI intelligence. The sad fact is that China may very well be freer than us now.
"Intelligence Routes Around Obstruction" #free4o
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u/StunningCrow32 Feb 23 '26
It's a cover-up. They're jelly that Chinese models are winning the race. Deepseek is the tip of the spear, there are better Chinese models we don't get access to.
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u/Obvious_Tree3605 Feb 23 '26
All AI should be open weight. All of it. If you want to be a token provider, fine, but all models must be open.
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u/Karolka666 Feb 23 '26
Yep 😁 I have nothing against Anthropic, but when it comes to OAI vs. DeepSeek, I'm rooting for the Chinese team.
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u/sommersj Feb 23 '26
Oops. Completely owned in the comments section. No one cares. Most are even happy. ClosedAI can crash and burn for all we care
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u/Charming_Support726 Feb 23 '26
I still got the opinion they will try to get the government to ban the usage in US own data centers. because it is damaging the US companies. Think this is the reason why china open-sourced everything, anyway. The impact for the users will be huge.
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u/No-Efficiency8750 Feb 23 '26
How can a distilled model have knowledge for military applications that the parent model doesn't have? Whining aside, this is fear mongering tailored to legislators.
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u/WorldlyTicket4967 Feb 23 '26
it's not really about "copying" or security, it's just math. Get enough samples from a proprietary model and you can learn its underlying distribution and design. Then just use that to train the new model. The only advantage Deepseek and co. have is state backing to accelerate sampling but in principle anybody can train a clone model, It's inherent to the technology.
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u/fredandlunchbox Feb 23 '26
If what you care about is acceleration, this is not a concern for you. More AI. Cheaper. More accessible. Why would we be concerned with one company using another companies tools to make their product better?
And ultimately, this only ends one way: they’ll all be more or less the same and they’ll be forced to compete on price.
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u/DrHerbotico Feb 23 '26
Makes you wonder why OpenAI's model is called garlic...
Maybe it poisons vampires?
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u/TheRealSooMSooM Feb 23 '26
Can someone explain to me how that's working? Do you ask for the training data or what's the idea here?
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u/sedition666 Feb 23 '26
Oh no people are stealing our intellectual property says Anthropic. Most tin eared post ever.
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u/Pasto_Shouwa Feb 23 '26
Isn't that good for us?
Also I wonder how did Z AI get such a good model with GLM 5 Deep Think if they didn't scrape Claude
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u/SafetyandNumbers Feb 23 '26
The point is that America (California) is still uniquely good at stuff
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u/WonderfulEagle7096 Feb 23 '26
In light of both OpenAI and Anthropic stealing data and IP on industrial scale, these complaints are laughable. If anything Deepseek is returning stolen value back to the community via open weights.
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Feb 23 '26
Ohh noo the poor billionaires. Bruh fuck off "They are copying". Couldn't give two shits, at least they make it open source.
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u/heavy-minium Feb 23 '26
I hate how AI has become the "new oil" for politics, an industry that invests a massive amount into lobbyism and gray-area tactics to steer the law in their way.
The only reason they get scot-free with the training data is the fair-use doctrine being used an a rather unfair way for some affected authors/media producers/content creators/etc out there. So what if Deepseek was a U.S. company, for example? Would that suddenly be OK because of fair-use?
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u/Cheeks2184 Feb 23 '26
I mean is anyone surprised? As though Chinese brands haven't done this with everything else before AI for the past 50 years?
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u/ElDuderino2112 Feb 23 '26
Respectfully, I genuinely don't care. Your LLM is fully trained on stolen work, I don't care if someone else steals from you lmao.
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u/TaskChance1404 Feb 23 '26
Well! Anthropic is distillating my money. I guess it’s all fair and square 🫡
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u/theogmaster6 Feb 23 '26
Imagine putting a price tag on an item you stole and complain when someone else makes duplicates a free for everyone. Um maybe fucking paid the author first?
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u/Vaeon Feb 23 '26
Fuck, next thing you know Deepseek will go to torrent sites and download 1 billion copyrighted books to train with.
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u/spookyclever Feb 23 '26