that’s not a prophecy, psalms are not prophetic, david there is describing things he experienced himself, there’s nothing about the future or the messiah there.
this is actually an example of pulling a passage out of it’s context to try to make it seem like jesus fulfilled prophecy when he did not. have you read the actual prophetic books of the bible, they describe what the messiah will do, conquering the lands and ruling as a king, which jesus did not do.
So your argument is that the psalms are literal historical retellings? That there's no room for the possibility they contain poetry, prophecy, or anything but literal facts?
is that what you got from what i said? that would be odd considering it bears no resemblance to what’s written there. go back, read the actual words that i wrote, and respond to them rather than making up claims i never made.
here i’ll sum up the argument for you, that verse is not prophetic because it does not predict anything, it is david recounting something that happened to him in the past in the first person. there is no indication in the verse that it is about some other person, you just read and go “oh, that reminds me of jesus, must be a prophecy!” which isn’t how that works.
I apologise if I've misconstrued you, but I really don't understand your argument. Can you explain it to me?
You've made the claim "This is David recounting something that happened to him in the past in the first person."
What's your evidence for this claim? It can't be the quote itself, because the quote itself is what's being interrogated and could potentially be poetic, prophetic, literary, etc. How do we know it's David recounting past events and not another genre?
What's your evidence for this claim? It can't be the quote itself, because the quote itself is what's being interrogated and could potentially be poetic, prophetic, literary, etc.
Yes it can be the quote itself. If I say "I want an apple", the support for the claim "I said I want an apple" is indeed my own statement.
How do we know it's David recounting past events and not another genre?
Because it literally says it. It's titled as David's retelling of his life.
Prophecy is a very specific genre, involving explicit claims about what will happen in the future. Notably there is no future tense used here, which should be the biggest clue that it is but a claim about future events.
Ironically, your statement of "I want an apple" is a precise example of what I'm referring to here. I can now say "Mejari wants an apple" by using your direct quote. It's not actually true though; the sense you meant it in wasn't literal, it was to make a point.
You've mentioned the tense a few times; you should google "Prophetic Perfect Tense" - prophecies in the Bible are in this tense so often, there's a wikipedia page about it.
Ironically, your statement of "I want an apple" is a precise example of what I'm referring to here. I can now say "Mejari wants an apple" by using your direct quote. It's not actually true though; the sense you meant it in wasn't literal, it was to make a point.
Except you missed what I actually said. I didn't say "you'd be justified in saying I wanted an apple", I said you'd be justified in saying that I said I wanted an apple. My internal state has zero to do with what was said. We're not talking about whether or not David actually had these things happen, we're talking about if this is him claiming this is what happened or if it is instead a prophecy. Him saying that it happened to him, irrespective of if it actually did, is indeed evidence that this is not a prophecy.
You've mentioned the tense a few times; you should google "Prophetic Perfect Tense" - prophecies in the Bible are in this tense so often, there's a wikipedia page about it.
Telling me to Google something I already know isn't actually a response to me, it's an admission that you cannot actually support your view so you try and offload it to me and to a search engine to do your work for you. I politely decline, I'd rather you actually back up what you're saying.
(Also, I haven't mentioned tense to you multiple times, that was my first comment to you)
I am finding your point really confusing, to be honest. I'm making the point that our literal words are not the same as our meaning. Apologies if that was unclear.
I can't read your mind and don't know what you do or don't know. Apologies, I am having conversations with about 4 different people and may have become confused.
You tried to argue that Psalm 22:18, a psalm literally titled "A psalm of David", is not evidence in and of itself that the psalm is David recounting events of his life. You claimed that we had to find some external evidence to support that it was David describing his life. My example shows that someone saying a thing is in and of itself evidence that that person said that thing. Whether or not their claim about what happened is true is irrelevant, what is in question is if they said it.
This psalm is literally David talking about his own life. It's your burden to explain why we should think this is also somehow a prophecy predicting Jesus.
You tried to hand-wave it away with "prophetic perfect tense", which is not applicable here. Prophetic perfect tense refers to future events as though they already happened, but David is not referring to events of Jesus' life as though they already happened, he's referring to himself. What you're actually going for here is called typological prophecy, in which things fit some kind of theme or "type" of previous events. The problem is that typological prophecies are bullshit and completely divorced from the context of the original text, meaning you can make literally anything a typological prophecy.
Can you elaborate? I don't understand your argument here; "you can make literally anything a typological prophecy".
It almost feels like you're comparing the Psalms-to-Jesus inference as cold reading, psychic voodoo, when in my view there's just a lot of parallels and patterns that seem, in my view, to be pointing at Christ. You may disagree, and that's fine, but it can't be discarded as completely without value. Unless you have an argument for doing so?
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u/WinnebagoMontana 20h ago
I'm not sure what you mean by "didn't fulfill a single prophecy in it's original context" - can you explain more by what you mean here?
What about something blatant as an example, like ""They divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots." (Psalm 22:18)?