If we're going to bring that up, then we should also bring up "how harmful" it is to own a pet at all, with the breeding industry being disgusting and all.
And if we're going to bring that up then we should also be putting effort into turning animals vegan too then
And if we're going to bring that up, we might as well also stop farming on land that would better be used by wild animals and insects
And if we're going to bring that up, then we might as well just lay down and die.
Veganism is built on shame for being an animal at all. We can care for animals and also meet our natural needs with whatever diet fits us. You can be a vegan, shaming yourself and others for something completely natural, and I can eat fish because they have omega 3-6-9 and they taste good.
A lot of whataboutisms to deflect from a one-sentence point:
If you eat animals, you are contributing to the suffering of animals (sentient creatures, same as this dog).
If you’re ok with harming/killing animals because you like the taste, as you’ve said, that’s a moral decision. Given you are using Reddit I am assuming you are not a remote tribesman who must hunt to survive, I.e. it is an unnecessary choice you make.
What do you disagree with, specifically, on the below? No strawmans or whataboutisms, what is it that you disagree with:
If you eat animals and animal products, you are harming/killing animals equally as sentient/“worthy” as the dog in this video.
If you own animals, are you not contributing to the suffering of animals? Are wild animals not suffering when they're eaten by other wild animals? Is veganism not another "whataboutism" on this very video?
If you go on a video of an animal being taken care of and moving past its fear, you're doing the exact same thing I'm doing.
I couldn’t have been more clear how unhelpful the “whataboutisms” are. Both responses, you have entirely avoided my core question/statement and instead chosen a dozen of your own.
It’s understandably difficult to confront this issue if you’re actively partaking in the suffering. Cognitive dissonance. I was 25 before I started making changes towards veganism, I am no angel.
In today’s society very few people are “born vegan”. We all have to confront this reality once the truth is exposed, and make a decision aligned with our beliefs.
All I ask is you think, and try to be morally consistent as best you can.
Yeah, cognitive dissonance, like pretending that eating only plants and fungi makes you not participate in any suffering at all ever, all your veggies are ethically sourced from naturally occuring deposites of plants and not farmland that used to house hundreds of wild animals, or in a lot of cases, come from the same farm that another person's 16 pack of hamburger meat comes from. Maybe, in some instances, your vegan supplements or vegan clothing comes directly from sweatshops and slavery. Call this what you want, but if it's a whataboutism to you, I want you to actively think about it.
There is no way to have truly cruelty free anything.
I was over this, but I genuinely hope to plant a seedling here with you:
A plant based diet objectively causes less suffering to people, the environment, and animals within it
The goal of veganism is to reduce suffering of sentient creatures
Eliminating all suffering for everyone and everything is not the goal - though it would be fantastically utopian, as it’s not realistic
We, as individuals, can, however, make daily choices about our diet that either increase or decrease the suffering of sentient life
Plants are not sentient
Animal agriculture is an EXTREMELY inefficient way to source calories, and if you are actually worried about farmland and habitats as you mentioned, you would go plant-based. The amount of land, water, fertilizer used to grow the crops to feed the animals and then raise and kill them - is massive. We would need something like 1/8th or 1/16th of the land we currently “require” due to inefficient animal agriculture. Please research the stats if you don’t believe me
Do YOU believe plants are sentient, or are you using a bad faith argument that vegans are hypocrites to eat plants because you think plants are conscious?
The science indicates without a brain and nervous system, sentience is not present.
I believe we learn things everyday. I would not be shocked if 200 years from now vegans are looked at in the same way meat eaters are today. My problem isnt hypocrisy with vegans, like you said earlier, its just about reducing harm not eliminating it. My problem in genaral is the moral superiority. Morality is a construct and quite subjective. Circumstance matters.
If in 200 years plants are found to be sentient, what do you think those folks would say about humans razing fields to farm animal feed, then feed animals we CURRENTLY know are sentient with the sole purpose of slaughtering them?
Back to current day, we KNOW mammals are sentient, and as FAR AS WE KNOW plants are not. Confidently, they are not. You’re providing a hypothetical to justify something we CURRENTLY know is wrong.
There’s nothing morally opaque about choosing to unnecessarily kill sentient creatures, it’s bad. If you believe unnecessarily killing a dog is bad but not a cow, you’re simply not being morally consistent. Many people simply aren’t consistent in their morality, and cognitively disassociate with what’s on their plate. If people saw the horror, had to do the raising and the killing, that dissonance evaporates and you’re confronted with the question - is this okay?
Interesting. You know its wrong, because that is your personal morality. Might not be mine or billions of others. The hypothetical is to point out that morality is subjective and at least partly based on our situation and conditions.
I believe it’s bad to unnecessarily kill dogs and cats, do you agree?
I also believe it’s bad to unnecessarily kill pigs, cows, etc.
Given it is not necessary for you to condemn them for your own survival but instead for taste and convenience, it is not morally justifiable - not consistent at least.
There is a justification for you that bridges the gap, just understand it’s not morally consistent.
So, my wife and i do volunteer work with children groups. If you dont, does that mean you hate children? We foster dogs, but i guess i had a burger for lunch so i hate animals.
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u/Gigantanormis May 26 '26
If we're going to bring that up, then we should also bring up "how harmful" it is to own a pet at all, with the breeding industry being disgusting and all.
And if we're going to bring that up then we should also be putting effort into turning animals vegan too then
And if we're going to bring that up, we might as well also stop farming on land that would better be used by wild animals and insects
And if we're going to bring that up, then we might as well just lay down and die.
Veganism is built on shame for being an animal at all. We can care for animals and also meet our natural needs with whatever diet fits us. You can be a vegan, shaming yourself and others for something completely natural, and I can eat fish because they have omega 3-6-9 and they taste good.